Dan Roth  0:01  
All righty.

All right. Bring up zoom again here. Okay,

This is wheel bearings. I'm Dan Roth from Forbes. 

Sam Abuelsamid  0:18  
I'm Sam Abuelsamid from Guidehouse Insights. And Rebecca is gallivanting with one of her friends tonight. So we will be doing another show with her again shortly. 

Dan Roth  0:29  
Yeah, she says she's the popular one. 

Sam Abuelsamid  0:32  
Yeah. The two of us are stuck at home and when she gets to hang out with a friend, 

Dan Roth  0:37  
yeah, that's okay. There are dogs like us. 

Sam Abuelsamid  0:40  
That's true.

As long as as long as I have treats

Dan Roth  0:44  
it well. Yeah, that's it well, not to derail us. What kind of cheese does your dog like?

Sam Abuelsamid  0:50  
She likes chicken jerky. And actually just about anything I ever study. Have you tried

Dan Roth  0:58  
our dog is not About apples and carrots. If he hears you open a little bag of like the baby carrots. He'll come from whatever room he's in.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:08  
It does he does like apples. She's not she doesn't seem to be as fond of carrots. Rosie our old dog was a lot fonder of carrots she loved eat carrots, but daisies not as crazy but but she does. She does love to have her evening Kong Filipina butter and kibble. All right, yeah. Don't we all? Yeah.

Dan Roth  1:28  
All right. We can bring it around to cars. So the Kong, I was looking at that when we got it and has like that, that looks like a you know, like a bump stopper. snubber. Yeah, um, it was apparently inspired by a Volkswagen bus transmission mount. The guy who sounds about right, yeah, the guy who came up with that he had a shop and his dog, his German Shepherd, whoever kept stealing one of the transmission mounts and nigh on it. So it's like, Alright, fine, we'll make it. At least that's the story.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:58  
Well, the funny thing is one I prepare the Kong for Daisy every evening. Yeah, as soon as soon as I pick it up, she knows and she'll come and sit there just outside the kitchen area. Sitting there calmly licking her lips the whole time while I'm filling it with peanut butter for

Dan Roth  2:13  
Yeah. Can you go a little slower make him draw? Yep. All right, well, let's get to cars. So you have been driving the Hyundai palisade?

Sam Abuelsamid  2:23  
Yeah. So had the the palisade all wheel drive 3.8 Platinum, the high end trim with every pretty much every available option on it. And as we've talked about before, I had a chance to take first drive in it last summer, when Hyundai was doing a regional drive program around here. spent a couple hours driving it. And it was really impressive. And I think you've had it I know Rebecca's had it and talked about it.

Dan Roth  2:52  
I actually don't think I have had it.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:54  
Yo Yo, you haven't driven the past. I

Dan Roth  2:56  
don't. I don't think I've had the palisade that's like the one that I haven't Had, okay. Well,

Sam Abuelsamid  3:02  
it, you know, it's interesting, you know, it's come out this year, you know, roughly the same time as the new Ford Explorer, just after the Kia telluride which which shares a platform with you know, we've got the new Toyota Highlander that's just launched. So you've got all these, all these three row SUVs, you know, in this segment and you know, fresh, fresh product in there. And, you know, this is, in a lot of ways one of the best that's out there, it works really well you know, it looks great. It's very roomy, it feels inside, you know, it's it's pretty close to the same size as the Explorer, but inside it feels it feels more open, you know, and kind of feels a little wider. So you feel like you have more, more room to spread out than you do in the Explorer. At least that's the perception of You know, I think, dimensionally it's not that far off, but it certainly feels roomier inside, especially in the third row. The third row is definitely roomier than in the Explorer. But where's the Explorer went back to a rear drive platform this year. The palisade is on a transverse engine front wheel drive platform. There's only one power train the 3.8 liter Hyundai v six which is a really good v six. Don't get me wrong, you know 300 and some horsepower 310 I think three 315 you know, so it's totally competitive with anything else that's out there. You know, I had the all wheel drive limited, which is their top trim level that Platinum Sorry, it's 200 and 291 horsepower 282 foot pounds of torque.

Dan Roth  4:53  
Yeah, well that. It can be efficient to though I remember that from the top Right To me it can do partial Atkinson cycle or it can Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  5:04  
yeah it'll do it can do some Atkinson cycle effectively Atkinson cycle control under certain modes because it's got variable Val phasing you know, so it's, it's at least you know, in theory it's it can be very efficient You know, this being the first time that I've driven one for an extended period of time I actually found it found the fuel economy to be a little less impressive than I expected. You know, it's it's officially rated with all wheel drive at 21 miles per gallon combined. It's 19 City 24 Highway I only got about 19 with it, you know, and I wasn't beating it up or anything. I was driving it you know, modestly the way I do it anything else and usually I get managed to get pretty close to the label fuel economy number but this one you know, did fell fall a couple miles per gallon short, you know, and, you know, compared to the rest of the segment You know, you know, the explorers ready, all wheel drive 2.3 liter explorers rated at 23 combined, Sam for the Highlander with their v six. And, you know, the one thing that Hyundai doesn't offer on this is hybrid powertrain, you know, so, among among the newer crop in the segment, you know, the Ford and Toyota are both offering hybrid powertrains in here. Hyundai is not doing that. And you know, I think if you're if you're looking for you know, it's not that 19 is terrible for a three row SUV, but it's, you know, in 2020 it's not that impressive either. You know, and I would think, you know, you should be able to do a little better than that.

Dan Roth  6:44  
Yeah, that's kind of like where fuel economy for these have been stuck for decades. Like just forever, you know, that you're gonna get about 20 miles to the gallon. Yes, it's good, but

Sam Abuelsamid  6:56  
it's not you know, a decade ago, you know, driving something like, you know, the first year Generation Chevy Traverse or, you know, the Explorer, you know, a decade ago, you know, 1819 miles per gallon was, you know, was about about what you were going to get. So it hasn't hasn't really improved that much. I do expect, you know that, you know, Hyundai has, you know, made it clear that they're going to be launching a bunch more electrified power trains. Whether or not the current generation palisade is going to get a hybrid system in it at some point in its lifecycle. I don't know. Mike, I guess it I'm guessing it's probably not. But you know, some of their other smaller ones like the the upcoming Tucson that's launching later this year. I would think the Santa Fe will probably get a hybrid system in it. But I'm not sure about the palisade

Dan Roth  7:46  
Well, now the Santa Fe in the palisade they share a lot under the skin right? It's so similar.

Sam Abuelsamid  7:51  
Yeah. Yeah, it's similar, same architecture. But the palisade is is, you know, spin stretched quite a bit. It's longer. wider than a Santa Fe. So, you know, it could get one thing is, you know, up to this point. Hyundai hasn't has only done their hybrid with their four cylinder engines, you know, with the 1.6 liter or the two liter four cylinder engines. And I'm not sure if that two liter hybrid combination is going to be enough for a vehicle the size of the palisade. If, if they, if they do a 2.5 liter with the hybrid system, that that could be workable, and that would certainly be competitive with the new Highlander, which also has a 2.5 liter four cylinder and hybrid. And that, you know, the Highlander hybrid is rated at 35 combined. So, yeah,

Dan Roth  8:46  
I it's funny how we're like we've made a lot of progress, but we're still at this point where the regular fuel economy of crossover this size is mediocre at best, which I think that's Just physics, you can't really get around it. And

Sam Abuelsamid  9:03  
then you have to move two and a half tons. Yeah, does take a certain amount of energy.

Dan Roth  9:08  
And I remember those first, you know, like the first Chevy Traverse, or that the lambdas. Like the Buick Enclave, the fuel economy those they got was like 15 when they when we first got them in the fleet, so we're all excited for him. And it was just like, oh, my goodness, that's bad. But they're they're really heavy. They were really happy. They've made a lot of improvements. But, you know, we're also looking at hybrid systems that seem to have a little trouble scaling, which is like that was the thing way back when was it seems like Hyundai's hybrid system can't scale like it would need to for a larger vehicle.

Sam Abuelsamid  9:43  
Right. And I think, you know, that's part I think that was part of Ford's rationale and going rear wheel drive with the new Explorer. I mean, among other things, is, you know, they they were developing a hybrid system for the F 150. And they did that one you They designed it as a modular system that could slap into anything with rear wheel drive that they had because it was based around their new 10 speed automatic. And then they just slot in an electric motor in between the engine and the and the torque converter. And you know, they can skit they can scale up that motor to various sizes. So the one that's in the Explorer hybrid, is, I think it's a 44 horsepower motor. And then, you know, for the, The Aviator grand touring the plug in hybrid, it's a 96 horsepower version of that. So it's just a physically larger motor with more power and torque to for that particular application, and we'll see which which one we'll see in a couple of weeks, which one to use in the, in the new f 150 hybrid. But you know, it's based on that same architecture, but you know, it's it was specifically designed to scale to have a variety of different applications.

Dan Roth  10:58  
Yeah, well, it seems like If you're doing a, you know, longitudinal layout, it can handle that a little bit more gracefully, because you know, larger motor is going to make the it'll move where the engine is, right? Well, if you're doing that in a transverse layout, you're, you're basically affecting the width of the package. Right? It may fit.

Sam Abuelsamid  11:19  
Yeah, you've got you've got a little more packaging space to work with and that longitudinal configuration because all you're doing is maybe shifting the transmission back by a couple of inches.

Dan Roth  11:28  
Yeah, well, it's this went really geeky. Okay. Yeah. Tell us more about the palisade. They're like, the thing that I noticed about it, not having driven it but just sort of comparing it with the Telluride, which I really, really liked was they seem to be two different flavors and both very distinct, they have different personalities, which is really interesting to me because they share so much.

Sam Abuelsamid  11:51  
Yeah, I mean, you know, the, the interior of the palisade, you know, especially in the limited term level that I had. You know, feels really upscale, you know, it's it's really nicely executed really nice materials. in there, there's a little bit of, you know, fake wood trim on the dash, but it doesn't look unlike, you know, we were talking last time about the Altima you know, where it really doesn't look like real wood, you know, this, this looks a little more authentic. And if the the instrument panel and center display, you know, spans across in one unit, you've got a full digital instrument cluster, and then the touchscreen, off to the off to your right. And it's a thing it's a 10 and a half inch display, you know, with a new new interface, but it's, you know, it's still, you know, it's different from the days of the past five or six years, but it's still pretty easy to use. The even the built in voice recognition works really well. It's pretty robust One of the, the cool features that the that they have on, they actually have it on a number of Hyundai models. Now, Hyundai and Kia models is using the side cameras that are on the underside of the mirrors for to give you a view similar to what Honda's had with their lane watch system. You know, and we have at our civic, but Honda only has it on the passenger side. So when you put on the turn signal, the right turn signal, it shows you the view from that camera of what's on your right hand side, which you know, if you're turning right, is usually just the curb. So it's not really all that useful most of the time and and it's it shows up in the center display, which means that to see it, you've got to look over at the center screen. You know, and if you're going to do that, you might as well just look at the mirror. What Hyundai is doing is they're actually showing that display In the digital instrument cluster, so the standard configuration in the digital cluster is the speedometer on the right tech ometer. On the left, when you put on the turn signal, it'll show you the view from either camera in the corresponding circles. So when you turn on the turn signal on to the left, it shows you the view from the camera in the speedometer display in the center of the speedometer display, or, you know, the, to the right, it shows it in attack display. And then, you know, so you basically kind of have the duplicate of what you're seeing in the mirrors, but it's always properly aimed. And it's, it's not there all the time. It's only you know, to you know, to give you a quick check of your blind spot when you're changing lanes or turning. So, you know, I think the system works really well on the telluride. They have that system but because the telluride doesn't have the full Digital cluster it only has the it has the analog gauges and then the display in between those, it actually shows you both the left and right in that central display in between the two gauges whereas this shows on you know separately on either side so it kind of ties in a little better and you know, you know what when you glance down you know which one you're looking at.

Dan Roth  15:23  
Yeah, I the Sonata Hybrid that I had on the last show did that as well. And it was I it's better than the Honda lane watch system, but it's still to me. After having spent a few decades driving with mirrors. It just doesn't feel right. I guess there's probably drivers that aren't checking their mirrors and don't have the mirror set Well anyway, so it probably can't hurt for them, but it's still it still feels weird. I like the way Hyundai did it a little better, but it's still to me like I want to be looking at that mirror and Not at the

Sam Abuelsamid  16:01  
yeah and I you know I do too I glance over Yeah, I have that muscle memory you know when I tap the turn signal lever I look over to one side or the other to the mirrors and and you know quick glance over my shoulder my peripheral vision before I make a move one way or the other, but you know as you've just anybody that's driven on American roads knows there's a lot of drivers that don't look

Unknown Speaker  16:25  
yeah

Sam Abuelsamid  16:28  
if it's right it's right in front of them you know, then it's better than nothing.

Dan Roth  16:32  
Yeah, and it's quicker it's quicker I think than lane watch lane watch the problem. One of the issues was the sort of display for it to like, finally get around to popping the thing up. He already have made your change. Yeah, exactly. Where this this seems to just just react a little quicker and that that digital cluster is really nice in this not I'm sure it's very similar.

Sam Abuelsamid  16:51  
Yeah, it's the same. It's the same same cluster displays the same hardware, and largely the same interface. Yeah, same graphics on there.

Dan Roth  17:02  
Yeah, that's one of the things that Hyundai continues to do really well. And I almost would pick their cars over some of their competition because they're just easy to operate even with the, the infotainment and stuff. It just, it you can get in, you can figure it out, they've got the right amount of redundant controls for the most part. And it just all really is. You don't need to crack the manual for most stuff. It just works. And that's, that's actually pretty hard to do. And so they've been they've been putting in the effort to make that happen. And it makes the experience a lot better.

Sam Abuelsamid  17:44  
No, it's, that's absolutely true. And, you know, between the, the good user experience of the way you interact with the vehicle and you know, just the way it looks and feels around you, you know it it feels very You know, it, it feels very high quality. And you know, it is but you know, the the perception you get sitting in it, it feels like a more expensive vehicle than it is. And, you know, certainly a $47,000 it's not, it's not cheap, but, you know, you can easily spend a lot more on an SUV and not have something that feels as premium as this does.

Dan Roth  18:25  
Yeah, it's it's an interesting trick, you know, some of it is sleight of hand, right? It's, it's just picking the right patterns and colors and textures and arranging them properly. So it doesn't actually have to be expensive to look expensive. Or, you know, it doesn't have to be as expensive as it looks. But they're really, really good at

Sam Abuelsamid  18:46  
it. And it's, you know, it's also a matter of, you know, how you put it together where you know, the way you design it, you know, with where the seams are got where parts join up to each other. And you know, again, this goes back to what I just talked about last time with the ultimate, you know, the, the trim the plastic trim around the center touchscreen display and the ultimate is it's right there in your face, you know, you've got these, these two halves, you know, there's this, there's a seam that separates the two halves of this kind of shell around the base of that screen that stands up on the middle of the dash. And it looks so out of place. There, you know, it just, it grabs your attention. The first time you glance at it, it grabs your attention, and you realize how cheap it looks compared to a lot of other elements of the interior. And, you know, a Hyundai has done a really good job of avoiding that sort of thing of not having and a lot of manufacturer manufacturers are increasingly doing that of, you know, getting the pieces lined up in a way that you don't see those seams or they're there. They're not as obvious And, you know, the the pieces that are hard plastics, you know, are down below the dashboard where you're not going to see them, you know, down down by your knees. So you know, the the pieces that you see and touch 99% of the time, are the ones that feel really good and look really good.

Dan Roth  20:21  
Yeah. And it's always a struggle. It's interesting. Nissan just had a little meeting for us here in New England, and they had one of the designers from their, their La Jolla studio they had here in Patel, talk to us night, I guess he's the lead designer, but that was one of my questions was, how do you figure that out, because it doesn't have to necessarily cost more to look like it costs more. It doesn't have to be expensive to just pay attention and work with the, you know, the production side of things so they can understand what you're trying to do and say you know if you had the gaps here or there or you know, made this one piece instead of two and I'm sure there's all that back and forth and that's what he said was like, Look, everything's a fight on every car. And, you know, some you win some you don't. And they they're always like, you know, they're always sort of getting buy in from from other disciplines and some stuff just happens that way. So it's

Sam Abuelsamid  21:25  
you know, and the other aspect of that is it also has you have to be able to build it.

Dan Roth  21:29  
Yeah, it's not

Sam Abuelsamid  21:30  
it's not as simple as just designing it in a certain way but you actually have to design it so that you can put it together in the factory

Dan Roth  21:37  
right and and like there's things like cycle times and stuff that come into it like he, yeah, if it takes 10 minutes to put that one piece in like no, that's not gonna work. So the Hyundai though, like the thing that I think you could, you could take from especially the palisade, but most of their lineup it's almost like A little masterclass in the importance of design, and how it shapes perception, because you look at the palisade and it's, you know, it's basically a minivan. It's front wheel drive based, it's it's a cross over, but it looks more like a taco. Yeah, in some ways, you know, it's got that there's that idea of the premium gap, right with the with the the way the stance is it doesn't doesn't really have front wheel drive proportions that they've pushed the wheels out a bit. It just has that, that more so traditional SUV stance, the clean lines on the body. Give it that perception, I think of premium and the way they've surfaced it you know, it's it's fair, it's like gimmicky. Whereas if you compare it to something like the Highlander, the Highlander, it looks to me it looks good, but there was a lot of complaining. Yeah, when when that day Due to a few weeks ago, and you know, the trim traces are pretty understated. And then inside, it's the same thing. It's just, you know, just the way they've they've, you were talking about how wide it feels, you know, and so they I'm assuming they probably emphasize the horizontal aspect. So it feels wider because there's a lot of horizontal lines versus the Ford may have more vertical elements to sort of box you in. And that's coming from the creative side of things. That's the fascinating part is how it messes with people's heads.

Sam Abuelsamid  23:27  
Yeah, I mean, you create, you create these optical illusions that, you know, something, you know, if you took take a measuring tape to it, it's not any different. But when you sit in it, you know it the impression that it creates is completely different. And speaking of impressions, I talked about the, you know, the infotainment interface. And you know, this is another area where Hyundai did it, right. You know what, they've got the same size screen that Ford has an explorer and the premium explorers with a 10 inch screen. But Ford, you know, decided, you know to when they at some point it almost feels like it was an afterthought. You know, they decided to add the 10 inch screen. But they it had to fit in the same space between the vents on the dashboard as the eight inch screen. And so the base eight inch screen setup is a landscape display. The 10 inch is a portrait display. And they did kind of a half assed job on reconfiguring the sink three interface for this bigger display for this reoriented display. It was the sink three was designed for a portrait style display. And, you know, on the 10 inch portrait display, you know, there's a lot of wasted space that doesn't, you know, they didn't reconfigure everything properly on that one. And, you know, fortunately, from what I've seen so far with sink four, you know, they've they've addressed that because they think right up front, they knew they were going to do both portrait and landscape display. But, you know, it's it's another it's another thing where there's this detail that Ford kind of missed out on with the Explorer that you know, Hyundai didn't have to deal with that.

Dan Roth  25:11  
Yeah, had the Explorer is an interesting case because they started like fumbled, launch feel it's just too bad because it looks good. And by all accounts, it still they'll, you know, they'll smooth it out, but

Sam Abuelsamid  25:27  
it's a little disappointing and how it was executed when it started getting out of the gate. Well, speaking of the Explorer, there was Jim Farley and Jim Hackett did a talk this week at Deutsche Bank conference and the web. It's available as a webcast, the replay of the presentations available online. I'll I'll drop a link to it in the show notes. But Farley talked about the Explorer launch in the QA. Yeah, he was asked about that or actually even in the main presentation before As asked about it talks about, you know, what they explore, he acknowledged that they made a lot of mistakes with the Explorer launch. And, you know, he, he said, you know, because they they had to completely got the plant the Chicago assembly plant, and reconfigure it all to build this thing because previously they were building the old front wheel drive based explorer and the Taurus there. And so they had a completely new architecture here. So they completely redid the assembly line, and that they made a lot of mistakes there. And that's what caused them problems. You know, and he talked about, you know, they're, they're about to launch the new f 150. The summer and you know, they've already launched the the escape. And he said, you know, for the F 150, because they already went through that process of completely rebuilding the plant with in 2015 or 2014, when they launched the current generation and the new one, it's Gonna be it's gonna be a lot smoother transition into this new generation.

Dan Roth  27:05  
Yeah, it's still surprising though, when a company that's been at it for so long like Ford, I know it's a big change and it's it's significant, completely different architecture and, and all that, but you'd think that they would have it down.

Sam Abuelsamid  27:19  
You would think so. But, yeah, it certainly Tesla's not the only one that can screw up the production launch. every manufacturer has done it at some point in time.

Dan Roth  27:29  
Yeah. Well, and I'm, it's refreshing that they're that forthright about it. And yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  27:36  
I was surprised he talked about it to that to the degree that he did.

Dan Roth  27:40  
I like Jim

is good guy. All right, well, so in my driveway until they came in, took it was the 2020 Infiniti QX 50 autograph all wheel drive, which was a real bit of just really The Cosmos coming together for us because the last episode we had we were talking about the Nissan Infiniti VCT, two liter four cylinder that you had in the ultimate. And I remember saying, Okay, I'll have to pay more attention to how smooth it is because you're, you seem to think that it was it was one of the smoother four cylinders on the market. And that was one of the things that Nissan was saying to was the design of that engine because the extra elements in there actually smooths it out without needing balance shafts. So somebody listened. Well, what did you think? Yes, the engine is is smooth in terms of vibration. It makes good power. It doesn't shake the car. I think what, for me, gets a little bit sideways. There is the engine note is not the most refined. There are other fours that that sound better? I know it's kind of a picky thing. And maybe I'm being hard on it, but it's still a little bit raspy. It's not really a car, it's isn't a car for you, if you are buying it for the sound of the engine, you know, like 4500 RPM though. That's not that's not what the Q x 50 is for. You know, so the end the power is good. It's a it's a nice it's a really neat piece of engineering. driving it, I felt like it was a little bit disappointing. So when you had it in the ultimate Did you have it with a CVT? Or do they have the invention Okay? So that's I think what makes the engine sort of feel like it's on its own little island the it's fine around town, you know, and its speed. Once you get to speed It's fine, you know, no gear changes, which is probably the right decision for the character of this car in particular, but also in it's another thing that they can say with the ultimate is, hey isn't really smooth, you don't feel that jerking from gear changes. And that's true. When you need the power, it does that sort of motorboating thing that cvts will do. And it's like double rubber bands, because you've got it has to build boost, which is pretty quick about but it also has to get to the right ratio, and those things never seem to just happen exactly when you want them. And that's not really a big deal, I think for the people who are going to buy it, because they're not going to drive it that way. But you know, it, it feels like a lot of tech that's wasted. That goes because it goes through a transmission that just doesn't care. And I have to back up a little bit. And when I'm thinking about it and say look, the point here was not to make a performance engine. It was to make an engine that is lighter and more compact. Then the V q, which is the only other engine they have, right, it's the V six, which is an old design, it's, it's good in some ways, I've really liked the V q. But that's also not a refined sounding engine. It's thirsty. I'm sure it's hard to clean up the emissions compared to a newer design, like there's a lot of reasons to go with a newer engine. And rather than do a harder to package v six, Hey guys, we can do a four cylinder we can dial the power up and down with software and boost. It fits a lot of places across however, you know, many platforms they've got, or just you know, in a lot of different engine rooms that make it harder. I think when you're designing for multiple engines, and the the weight of it helps out helps them make other pieces around it lighter. So there's the reason for this engine is to replace the EQ. It's not to excite the enthusiast, although I really want to try it and in the new z, if that's What they wind up doing, because they think it will be wonderful with either, you know, step ratio automatic or manual transmission behind it.

Sam Abuelsamid  32:08  
Yeah, it could be really interesting. I don't know if they'll do it with with a manual. In fact, I would, at this point, I'd be surprised if they do another manual. But a separate show automatic or, or a DCT. Yeah, I think is definitely a possibility. You know, they could potentially use, you know, maybe a version of the DCT from the GTR. Or, you know, there's other dcts out there on the market that they could use. But that that would be a fascinating, fascinating thing to try out because you've got, you know, similar powers of EQ, but in a very different kind of package.

Dan Roth  32:50  
Yeah, and I honestly, like I came to that realization is like, hang on a second. I'm going about this opinion, wrong. It's just like it's, it's To make X amount of kilowatts really, and, and just provide the power, it's not it's not there for excitement. It's not, it's not there for for any of those visceral things that we care about, it's there, because it's a smaller, more efficient way to make the same amount of energy for the drive train. So with that in mind, I, it's fine. You know, the, the, the Qx 50. is, I'm trying to think now because it's the model name, the model itself, which is now in the second generation. But the QX moniker started off as the E x, right, it was the X 35. And then the E x. Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  33:44  
it was, yep. Yeah. x 35. Or it was an E x 30. I think it might have been x 30. Originally, there was a three liter back, back when I first did a review of it for auto blog back in 2009. I think 2008 or nine. Yeah, I think it was x 30.

Dan Roth  34:08  
As a long time ago now,

Sam Abuelsamid  34:09  
yeah. Well, you know that that first generation one was, it had a long product run. It did. And it changed pretty significantly, you know, partly when they did their mid cycle refresh, they actually, it was a pretty substantial update because they actually stretched the wheelbase by about three inches. Yeah. Which

Dan Roth  34:29  
Yeah, made it much better. And, and so that said, that one had a lot of character, because it was based on the G 35. g 37. You know, the FM sedan and coupe a it that made it also not all that space efficient, not all that fuel efficient. So it had character and it felt luxurious and it felt sporty, but it couldn't hold that much. And it didn't go that far on a tank of gas and it was maybe a little bit more toward the side that would please enthusiasts but but sort of put off the luxury buyer so I think they've made the right decisions going with a front wheel drive transfers architecture It looks good on the outside you know it's it's restrained enhance them. And infinity does beautiful interiors and this one being the autograph trim. It's really, really nice. It's a nice combo of tan and brown leather and just nice materials everywhere you looked very comfortable. The has has a newer infotainment, which I think probably shares a lot with what was in the ultimate. The touchscreen, it's not a huge touchscreen, but it's it's not the quaint Nissan system that we've had we had for a very long time as well with the old windows, you know, 3.1 graphics and a little rotary country. That system actually worked. It was really friendly. This system is pretty easy to use the touchscreens a little sluggish it's a little clunky and it's a shiny plastic cover so I just wonder how long that's going to hold up but it's it's not bad it's not real have to use the voice recognition I tried it because Rebecca always asks me Did you try the voice recognition so I did I tried it and it couldn't find the road I was so it couldn't understand me, I guess so. They have to give it a demerit for that. You know, infinity has

Sam Abuelsamid  36:41  
it's got the it's got the dual screen setup, doesn't it?

Dan Roth  36:46  
Uh huh. I'm trying to remember

Sam Abuelsamid  36:51  
Yeah, I'm looking at it right now. It's it's got dual touchscreens. So there's, there's one above which is primarily for the for The nav system and then the one below that has it's mainly for the entertainment media and then other controls.

Dan Roth  37:12  
Okay, I'm trying to think because it's like none of it felt clunky though like it. Okay? Yes. Ah, it did have the dual screens. But it didn't like that didn't bug me strangely enough where in other cars it does get kind of aggravating that that didn't actually bother me to the point where I'm like, I had to go look at a picture to remember I mean,

Sam Abuelsamid  37:37  
it's not as bad as the setup that accurate had for many years. It definitely works better than

Dan Roth  37:43  
give accurate said if you couldn't figure out how to use Yeah, it's like wait, this one is a touchscreen. Yeah, no,

Sam Abuelsamid  37:48  
that one's not this one. This one, at least the Infinity system, you know is fairly easily You know, a lot are logically configured you know, with you know, the the maps and stuff are all in the upper screen you know or it's closer to lattice site and you know other stuff climate controls and and radio and everything are in the lower screen.

Dan Roth  38:10  
Yeah, no i didn't i didn't hate any of it. It all actually worked pretty well. And the the touch targets are decent size on that lower screen and there's enough physical controls and stuff so they've done a lot of the ergonomics right which is always like it always makes you a little scared when they they do complete redo and get creative things but they've they've done a really nice job and I've just I really love the aesthetic inside it's it's, it's their designers are doing a nice job with with infinity in particular that the design has always been really good with the brand and it shows here just it feels nice and it it it looks good. And they have some some things that are unique to the brand like the silvery wood trim. I remember If tobacco a ways now where they they, they brought out it a little more subtle but it was in one of the EM, I think sedans they had like flecks of silver in the wood it was more of like a traditional woodgrain for this is like open pour kind of stuff but it's just things like that where they they do pay attention to those details and that's what you expect in a luxury car. And so it gives you that that sort of feeling like it's not just a Nissan with a fancier badge. I think this actually may be a Mercedes right? This is the one that they share with others. No,

Sam Abuelsamid  39:33  
that was the Qx 30 that was the classic it was based on the GLA

Dan Roth  39:39  
but you know it also like this This goes down the road nicely the thing that i i guess i wish they would figure out a little better as infinity has this this feeling this desire, I guess to push the envelope technically and with with things that not every other manufacturer is really after right now like the steer by wire is My biggest complaint and I had this I had the QX A while ago back in March or February and it was the same thing. And I had it during like a rainstorm at night and just trying to feel what the hell kind of traction I had or you know where the lane was I hated that hated it to just like, like I cannot wait to be out of this car in these conditions and it still feels really really numb and I don't know how you get around that with steer by wire. It just it's so so artificial that it's it's really hard to tell what's going on with the tires and I feel like that that actually even for the like regular driver that is an issue because you're not going to know what what kind of grip you have and what's actually going on it's just too too much like a video game. The other stuff you know, it seems seems okay, but that that particular bit of steer by wire just that kills the whole thing for me. The rest of it, I love it otherwise, but it needs to not have steer by wire.

Sam Abuelsamid  41:04  
Yeah, I think, you know, as long as we still have to actually drive the vehicles, you know, it's probably better to stay with mechanical systems for stuff like that.

Dan Roth  41:15  
Yeah, or some other way.

Sam Abuelsamid  41:17  
Even even, you know, even a lot of cars that have mechanical steering, you know, still don't have the greatest steering feel, you know, look at a lot of recent BMW so no guarantee that actually having a physical connection there is actually going to be much better.

Dan Roth  41:33  
Yeah, it doesn't necessarily have to be efficient physical connection. I know that it's it's really hard to do this stuff. So later generations of it are going to get better. But it just, it's funny how subtle It is like even with that bad steering say in one of the three series it's still better than having nothing Yeah, like so it's it's it's a weird subtle thing. So they'll zero in on it, they'll get there easily. The other thing I sort of thought about as I was driving this was instead of the VCT engine i'm i'm curious why infinity hasn't considered going hybrid, this seems like a just the right product to go hybrid with in in that market. You know, you can certainly get the performance out of a hybrid setup. I think a PhD v would would really really be a good move it's the right sighs it's it's just lovely. It's it's, you know, it's a premium product and, you know, premium hybrid buyers are there in the CV market. And it's not like the engine was cheap to do, either. So, maybe a hybrid would be financially about the same I don't know, but maybe they just don't have a hybrid to put into it. But I really felt like as fun as this is With this engine are as good power as this engine makes like, I feel like they could have gotten that same kind of out of out of electrification.

Sam Abuelsamid  43:07  
Yeah, I agree. You know, I think Nissan for whatever reason, has seems to have had a hard time committing to, you know, to, to hybrids in any form. You know, each time that they've launched one. It hasn't been very long lived, you know, they had one for a while in the road. They had one for a while in the, in the Pathfinder. And, you know, back Back in the day, they, they actually licensed Toyota's hybrid system for the ultimate for a couple of years and then discontinued that. And I think, next next episode, we'll talk more about that stuff I can't talk about yet under embargo for now, but yeah, I mean, Nissan seems to have a real love hate relationship with hybrids. But you know, this, they have said that they're going to launch infinity models with their e power system, which is actually a series hybrid system. You know, so they refer to that as an electric powertrain that you never have to plug in. You know, and that one's got in the versions they have in, in the Japanese market today. You know, they're lower power versions, where you have an electric motor that powers the powers, the wheels, and then relatively small battery and an engine that runs a generator. So there's no mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels at all. The engine is just charging the battery and then then the thing runs on electricity. So, you know, that's coming. I believe that in the last your first infinity power plot model in 2021, but you know, This, you know, the Qx 50 would, you know, in the segment, it's any of this premium, you know, midsize crossover segment, you know, against the likes of, you know, certainly the the Lexus RX and the, you know, some of the Germans, you know, you've got the Audi Q five, and the BMW X three, you know, those have plug in hybrid options available to them. It would seem like a logical option, and this kind of vehicle, but, you know, for some reason, Infiniti has chosen not to do it.

Dan Roth  45:33  
Yeah, it's surprising because it's not like it's cheap. You know, it's $59,000. Yeah. So I can't imagine that you couldn't find some way that they're charging you right for that, that VCT engine. So I can't imagine that they can't make the numbers work for high Well, I can actually imagine that a hybrid would still be more expensive than the edge with the bet the batteries not,

Sam Abuelsamid  45:57  
not necessarily I mean, if you're talking about a regular A non plug in hybrid and the cost premium for those has come down quite a bit. You know, it's, you know, it's probably somewhere between 1500 and $2,000. Now at, you know, manufacturing cost premium. And, you know, that's, you know, you're probably looking pretty close to that to do that VCT engine compared to a conventional four cylinder.

Dan Roth  46:24  
Yeah. And it's just, I guess it's two different approaches. Yeah. But you know, it would it would allow them to sort of bump their fuel economy, which isn't great either, as in 25 combined. That, to me, this is kind of a small vehicle to get mileage that glow. These days, everything seems a bit more efficient. But yeah, it's it's a nice place to be. Yeah, yeah. If they if you're not driving it at night in the rain with no steering field. So it's got some things to work on. It's a good Choice it feels solid otherwise and it's it's comfy and handsome and yeah, it's so it's a contender at least it has some things that are unique about it. That's nice. It's not not totally nondescript. But I do find some of the choices curious but you know, that give some give some areas of improvement, right? Do it like a Yeah, like an employee review, like, these are the things you need to work on. All right. Well, let's, let's jump into topics. And we could stick with hybrids because Ford just announced the fuel burn the mileage, the electrical mileage numbers for their escape pgv. I we knew this was coming but we didn't know it was going to do 37 miles on a charge. Right?

Sam Abuelsamid  47:49  
Yeah, they had indicated You know, when they first launched the escape lat just over a year ago when they did the reveal of the escape and told us about the plugin that is It would be doing somewhere, you know, at least 30 miles of range. And that's in part, you know, driven by, you know, the fact that they sell versions of this vehicle as the the cuca, in Europe and in China. And, you know, to get the most out, you know, a lot of the incentives, especially in China are, you know, there's a threshold of, you know, getting at least 30 miles of electric range, in order to get some of those, some of the maximum incentives on this thing. And so, they ended up at 37 miles of electric range from 14.4 kilowatt hour battery, and 100 miles per gallon equivalent, you know, the overall combined driving cycle, which, you know, that range is a little bit less than what Toyota has been promising for the rav4 Prime there plug in hybrid, but the efficiencies a little bit better. So to is projecting 42 miles and 94 mpg. So, you know, we're not sure you know Toya hasn't revealed any any other details about the rav4 plugin as far as battery size or anything, so, it may well have a larger battery than the escape does. But, you know, either way, I mean, you know, this 37 miles of electric range is great for this thing, you know, that's, you know, that's an that's, that's more that's better range than the first generation Chevy Volt got when it launched a decade ago, that one only got 35 miles. So you're getting 37 miles in a much more usable package, you know, the battery, you know, modern batteries, you know, are, you know, much more compact, they're much better energy density than they than they were in the past. So the whole battery pack fits under the rear seat. But unfortunately, that also means that the, you know, that it blocks off the passage where a drive shaft would go for all wheel drive. So you can only get the the escape plug in with front wheel drive. The when the Coursera plugin launches later this year, it's going to have all wheel drive, but with an electric motor on the rear, which is the same as what Toyota does on the rav4.

Dan Roth  50:21  
Well, I mean, you gotta you gotta keep those things distinct. So you can have something different for that brand, right?

Sam Abuelsamid  50:28  
Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, but so for anybody that's, that wants an all wheel drive, plug in crossover, you know, the Escape is not going to be the one for you, unfortunately. But you know, the other thing is the Escape is going to be significantly cheaper than the Rab the escape plugin starts at 30 just over 33,000 and it's eligible for about I think it's about a 60 $400 federal tax credit because of the size of the battery. So you're gonna be looking at starting price effective starting price somewhere around 27,000 for the escape plug in hybrid, and, you know, 37 miles of range is going to be enough for most people to do pretty much all their regular driving without using any gas.

Dan Roth  51:18  
Yeah, I mean, especially with regular driving now. Yeah, I filled up once in the last four months.

Sam Abuelsamid  51:26  
Right? Well, you know, even you know, under more normal circumstances, it's still it's still gonna be plenty of electric range for most people. And, you know, you plug it in when you come home at night, and plug it in the morning. And, you know, when you're driving around during the day, you don't have to worry about unlike with a battery electric vehicle, you don't have to, you know, perhaps worry about you know, finding a place to charge during the day. You know, or if you want to take a road trip, you know, with the family, you know, you don't have to necessarily plan for where you're going to stop. You know, for charges along the way, you can just keep driving it just like a regular hybrid.

Dan Roth  52:04  
Yeah, well, that's one of the things, you know, range anxiety isn't so much a thing anymore. But it still factors in when you're, especially when you're considering the purchase of a single vehicle to do it all. And certainly the Escape is in that class where it will be the family vehicle, it will have to do at all, you know, you think about the same way that the rav4 does, you know, it's that it's a new family wagon. And so to be able to do it all sort of gracefully not not run out of juice is really important in that that segment, so that that's still an area where there is some range anxiety, because they're not, you know, they're not true believers. They're not early adopters, but at this point, there are people that you know, would be happy to spend a little bit extra and be able to cover most of their driving on a daily basis with with electric instead of using So it seems like a good move. And I'm surprised that the price because the last escape I had, I was surprised in a bad way. It seemed expensive and it actually seems a little tighter in terms of space. But maybe that's again, the design stuff tricking us like, how does it actually sort of fit in that segment? I really feel like the rav4 is the king in terms of just space, size, utility, all those things that's a really, really they're actually,

Sam Abuelsamid  53:34  
their dimensions are almost exactly the same.

Dan Roth  53:37  
I think really, Sema Ford feels tighter.

Sam Abuelsamid  53:40  
Yeah. Yeah. I haven't driven the escape since last summer. So it's, I have to go back and remember, but yeah, it didn't seem to be that much different to me. But, you know, price wise, and the the, the the SE plugin Hybrid starts at just over 33. And then there's all you can also get the SSL and the titanium, and the titanium is about 39,000. But the thing is, you know that se, you know what that 60 $400 tax credit, you know, that brings it down to about 27, which actually makes it cheaper than the SE hybrid, the regular hybrid SC, which is 28. So it's about $1,000 less. So, you know, if you if you buy one of these, you know, in the next year or so, you'll still be able to get that credit, you know, probably by sometime around the middle of 2021. Ford will have hit the 200,000 mark, and they'll be phasing out their tax credits, but, but at least for now, you can still get that and you know, that really makes it a good deal.

Dan Roth  54:46  
Yeah. And I guess you have nowhere to go if you want to drive so you do have to leave. Yeah, unless,

Sam Abuelsamid  54:53  
yeah, for that you'll have you'll have to go to Toyota for the rav4 which is going to start by 38 and a half.

Dan Roth  54:58  
Yeah, so it's a couple of years. And more for the

Sam Abuelsamid  55:01  
that's a that's about a $5,000 price difference for the the minimum price. That's there. Yeah, that's that's true. Um, but the, you know, the Raval also have a tax credit available on it as well, which bring it down to about 32. Yeah.

Dan Roth  55:16  
It's a competitive market.

Sam Abuelsamid  55:17  
It is very competitive. Yeah. And then you got you got the CRV hybrid that Rebecca drove last time, you know, which they don't have a plug in version of that yet, but just the just the regular hybrid. But yeah, I mean, there's a there's a lot of hybrids. And, you know, as I mentioned earlier, when we're talking about Nissan and hybrids, you know, I'll have more to say about that next week.

Dan Roth  55:38  
Okay. All right. Well, let's see what you have to say about Nikola motors. The, the best takes I saw were a Patrick George summed it up really nicely. He said they don't make anything Have no profit. And yet they're valued more than the, you know, more than General Motors. Which makes absolutely no sense. Although

Sam Abuelsamid  56:09  
there is nothing about the stock market today that makes any sense whatsoever. And that's it. That's

Dan Roth  56:15  
it. Yeah. Nicola seems to have, like, we and we talked about him a little bit a few weeks ago, or a few shows ago because they they had the pickup that seems really promising. And they're sir working in long haul trucking or you know, heavy trucks, which is really I think the, the, the place where you're gonna find a lot of adoption and an actual, like, you probably have an actual road to profitability there. If you can do it well versus, you know, selling fancy electric cars to wealthy people. But

Sam Abuelsamid  56:58  
you know, the So Nikola, when they first came out a few years ago when they first became public, you know, they announced a long haul truck, you know, an electric long haul truck, and this was before Tesla revealed the semi. The difference between what Nikola is doing and there's so much about what Nikola is doing this the same, you know, it's copying the Tesla playbook, including the name, you know, where a Tesla guy in venters last name, you know, Nikola went first first name Nikola Tesla. So, you know, not coincidental with the naming And increasingly, it seems like Trevor Milton, their founder, and now former CEO, he's now the chairman. He's they brought in another CEO. You know, he seems like he wants to be like, Ilan even on Twitter. But, you know, what, Nikola? You know, what came up came to market wanting to do I thought actually made a lot more sense than what Tesla is trying to do with the semi using fuel cells. But, you know, because hydrogen fuel cells, you know, for the kind of range that you need for for a long haul truck, it's gonna weigh probably about 10,000 pounds less than the batteries that you need to do the same kind of range for, you know, for the Tesla semi. And when you're talking about a truck, you know, where you're wait limited to 80,000 pounds, and in most places, you know, that 10,000 pounds, that extra 10,000 pounds, that you're not wasting on batteries that can go into payload that generates revenue. So that's, you know, that actually makes a lot of sense. And then, you know, when you need to refuel, you can refuel that thing in just a few minutes, you know, whereas, you know, to do what Tesla is claiming with refueling the semi, you know, 80% charge in 30 minutes would require about a 1.1 point six or one one megawatt charger, which is you know, about four times more Power then what you have today from the fastest supercharged one megawatt one megawatt charger Come on. And yeah, those those don't exist anymore today.

Dan Roth  59:10  
So I mean, how are you gonna? What is the electrical? Like?

Sam Abuelsamid  59:15  
I can just imagine the size of the cable yeah for this thing and the cooling for that cable

Dan Roth  59:21  
transmission, like the electrical transmission requirements, you get a station with five of those. I was like,

Sam Abuelsamid  59:29  
What so you know, the obvious question when Nikola is well, there aren't any hydrogen fueling stations in the middle of the country for long haul trucks either. Nicola is addressing that by they're building out a network of hydrogen stations across you know, most of the major corridors across the country where most of the long haul trucking takes place. And what they're doing is today, you know, the hydrogen stations that are in California for cars like the Toyota, Mariah and Honda And Hyundai next Oh, for those, you know, they have fairly limited number of cars that actually use those. So they actually bring in the hydrogen by truck and you know, put it into a storage tank on site. That's not going to be practical. You know, when you're talking about, you know, taking it out to Kansas or Nebraska, you're not going to truck out hydrogen from refineries out to those locations. So they're actually going to be producing hydrogen on site from using water and electrolysis and using primarily renewable electricity to do the electrolysis, so high solar and wind power. And they've, you know, they're working with some partners, they've, they've ordered the equipment for the electrolyzers to do the hydrogen production. So they'll be able to support you know, these trucks in the environment where they're going to be used. All good. They haven't actually done any of that yet.

Dan Roth  1:00:55  
Okay, we intend to the

Sam Abuelsamid  1:00:58  
trucks. The hydrogen trucks are supposed to get hit production about 2022 2023 Yeah, and the hydrogen stations are supposed to obviously need to be ready by then. But right now, Nikola has a valuation of $30 billion and zero dollars in revenue. Okay, the other thing that got people all excited, you know, the past week was, you know, news of the Badger, which is their pickup truck, you know, which looks really cool, actually, you know, it looks it looks much more like a traditional pickup truck than the the Tesla cyber truck. And, you know, as a truck, it would actually be probably a lot more useful than a cyber truck.

Yeah. That said, the,

you know, the cyber truck, you can at least plug it in and charge it. The badgers supposed to use the same fuel cell technology that they're using for the long haul trucks. And you know, think about where most pickup truck are sold, you know, places like Texas and Oklahoma, you know, these are not going to be long haul, you know, drivers, you know, these, these need, you know need to be they're going to be sold where people use pickup trucks where if you're not in California, there's no hydrogen stations. And you know, unless you live close to one of these hydrogen stations that they're going to build on some interstates. This just truck makes zero sense right now.

Dan Roth  1:02:28  
Well, so it's always interesting bit of a cart and horse. You know, Tesla had to deal with some of the same stuff when they hit the market. And that's why they invested so much in their supercharger network. You know, that was I think that's one of the key things that as much as we bitch about Tesla, they actually did a really smart thing where they they gave you the car and then they also gave you the infrastructure. And the supercharger experience is generally pretty good. Sometimes they don't charge as fast They're advertised and that kind of stuff. Those are all solvable problems. And I think that's what I come back to what I'm looking at at niccola. Two is, yeah, they may not have the refueling architecture there. But that seems almost like an easier problem to solve than building, you know, electric charging stations, because it's very similar to how you refuel a gasoline car.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:03:26  
It's easier to solve for the, for the long haul trucks. Yeah, as you know, of the more limited environments where they're going to be used. You don't need as many stations. But those pickup trucks, you know, right, all those to consumers. People expect to be able to use their vehicle anywhere, you know, wherever they go. And, you know, right now, unless you happen to live in California, you can't really do that, you know, so, yeah. So it's, you know, for the pickup truck right now, unless they're planning you know, to build out a network. Hydrogen stations across the country to support those two. That's not going to make any sense.

Dan Roth  1:04:05  
Well, yeah, I'm curious about how that's gonna work. There's certainly an opportunity there where you can you can work with, you know, a large Petroleum Company. They have ways to to produce and to deliver hydrogen. They have networks of stations already. It's not great, like, you know, but Well, there's a sales pitch there. Yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:04:28  
But I mean, they could have been doing that already.

Dan Roth  1:04:30  
Or they probably should have been Yes.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:04:32  
And they're not

Dan Roth  1:04:35  
doing so.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:04:37  
Is the oil companies are actually the ones who produced most of the hydrogen

Dan Roth  1:04:41  
yet it's made from natural gas. So here's, or it's, you know, it's a byproduct of cracking. So I guess my question is, because this is sort of a Silicon Valley company, and there's so much subterfuge like Do we know that they're actually not doing anything? Or actually based in Arizona? How are they Yeah, They give off a good vibe. It does still out west. That's nice. Anyway, but do we know for a fact they're actually not not doing anything or have they just not talked about it? You know, like, even as far as

Sam Abuelsamid  1:05:21  
a network of general purpose

Dan Roth  1:05:22  
hundred stations Yeah, trying to partner or creating some some, like the sort of more consumer facing higher density, hydrogen charging, like, at the very least,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:05:37  
I don't know if they are doing anything or not they haven't talked about it. I mean, yeah, with the trucks with the long haul trucks, you know, they talked about that, you know, from day one that was part of the plan from the beginning. And, you know, that's, that's what helped them get a whole bunch of deposits from some really big fleet operators. For the, you know, for the Badger They haven't said a thing about it. So my guess is that not much is happening there.

Dan Roth  1:06:04  
Yeah, thank that could be.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:06:06  
I think the Badger i think is just going to be vaporware for for the foreseeable future.

Dan Roth  1:06:11  
Well, and I think that's actually a much harder thing to make any kind of profit on no matter where they price it anywhere below, like $300,000, it's just not gonna, they're not gonna get any return, no revenue from it. And, I mean, you could you could easily, not easily but you could conceivably solve that lack of hydrogen refueling. Again. Check it in and, you know, work on an infrastructure that is sort of more repeatable, sustainable, in the meantime, but like, get the fuel to the people. That's not as difficult as getting the electricity to the people in Well, in my mind,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:06:50  
just right now, there's about 120,000 gas stations in the United States. There's 40 hydrogen stations.

Dan Roth  1:07:01  
Right. So let's see. I mean, it's just a tanker truck right with another hose is fine. I know it's a lot more complicated than that, but it seems seems a little easier from the outside looking in to be able to say like, well, you can put hydrogen in the place where hydrogen is needed and then figure out you know, but like, with superchargers, right, if you've got to put in Transformers and all the different,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:07:27  
yeah, that, you know, even a DC fast charging station, you know, costs a few hundred thousand dollars to install. Whereas a hydrogen station, a conventional hydrogen station, like we have in California today is about 1.2 1.3 million for one of those.

Dan Roth  1:07:46  
Yeah, so that's not great either. And the whole thing that hydrogen explodes, but

Sam Abuelsamid  1:07:56  
well, so there's gasoline. Yeah, that's for that matter, soda soda. lithium ion batteries.

Dan Roth  1:08:01  
That's Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:08:02  
that's also very useful if you puncture a lithium ion battery, it's not a good, not a good thing.

Dan Roth  1:08:07  
Now in DC is nothing to mess with either. And,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:08:10  
you know, hydrogen, you know, if you get a leak in a tank, you know, unless as long as you don't have an ignition source, you know, it's, it's so light is just gonna evaporate and disperse before, you know pretty quickly. You know, so a lot of ways it's actually safer to work with the gasoline. But

Dan Roth  1:08:28  
yeah, just don't don't try to throw the roof down the dock in New Jersey, you'll be alright. Yeah. All right. Well, you know, I think this is a great pivot for us to to speaking of electric cars that burn up. Lemons has been doing a lot more to promote this. This is a great headline from Jalopnik lemons is doing more to promote or to advance electric racing than lemons. And I think that's true. Because it's it's that sort of run what you brung. Those that very much has and and I just I mean, that's the racing that we all say we want anyway right like run regular cars when crap boxes make it make it fun instead of some sort of like high dollar spec series. And that's what's what's going on at Tesla they've got an extra purse for any team that can actually finish a race or a win one of the winner. Yeah, so that's really cool, actually.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:09:27  
Yeah, so, you know, for those not familiar with lemans racing, you know, the basic premise is, you know, you can bring whatever, you know, race it, you know, they run like 1224 hour endurance races. The the main stipulation is that the car cannot cost more than $500. So anything up to $500 in value, not including the safety equipment, so not including the rollcage and fire extinguishers and harnesses and stuff like that. So, you know, I know a bunch of people around lemons, you know, they have, you know, all kinds of, you know, clap, you know, really terrible cars. And if you look around online, you can find some look for photos of lemons races, there's some hysterical stuff that's been raised. But, you know, and and to try to enforce that $500 limit. One of the, one of the rules is that, you know, if, you know, you have to have, you know, receipts for everything. And if, if they think that you've cheated, that you know, you've actually spent more than $500 on the car, if you race and win and they think you're too fast. They can buy your organizers can buy your car from you for $500. So it's really there's no incentive to spend more than 500 bucks. Fortunately, the 500 does not include your sweat equity. But for, for the electric racers, they have introduced a $50,000 Prize goes to the first team to win a race with electric power. And so far has been two cars that have entered only one is even remotely any good. And that's an old dodge Omni oh two four that's been converted to electric. And the team that did this got originally initially filled it with a bunch of deep discharge RV batteries. But currently, they're working on a configuration using a pair of used Chevy Volt batteries on swappable racks so they can do quick quick change quick battery change in the middle of the race. And for the for electric cars they have in the series, given an exclusion from the $500 limit for the electric powertrain stuff because that stuff is clearly more expensive right now. So the rest of the car still can't cost more than 500 bucks, but you get an exception. For electric power trains so that that way they can do the batteries. But it's going to be interesting to see who can you know who can build an Eevee that can actually win the lemons race that's going to be pretty hysterical to watch.

Dan Roth  1:12:13  
But it comes down to strategy certainly have to be you have to be fast enough to win, but there's always attrition and endurance racing. So your thing just has to has to be fast enough to hold its own. But it doesn't have to be exotic.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:12:33  
Yeah, you know, well, and most most lemans cars are not very fast.

Dan Roth  1:12:37  
Yeah, the speeds not that high. That's not that's not the point with

Sam Abuelsamid  1:12:41  
the classic line about racing, you know, to finish first first you must finish Yeah, so like, you know, like you said, you got to get you got to be there at the end. And if you can do that, you know, then you've got a chance.

Dan Roth  1:12:53  
Yeah, it makes me wonder to like, so the RV batteries like that's just a heavy, inefficient They're not there. Yeah, it works. It doesn't work great. But you know, there's a there's a whole cornucopia of options available to you to make one of these things on the cheap. forklift parts are readily available. And you can use forklift motors and inverters and stuff and you know, you do have a transmission so you can get that thing up and, you know, fourth or fifth gear, not using that much energy. You know, electric motors have plenty of torque to drive that kind of stuff. And if you can figure out region like you could actually hang in.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:13:40  
Well, yeah, in the article here, you know, talks about, you know, the potential of taking an old Toyota Celica early 90 civic, and, you know, installing the hybrid drive unit from a Prius you know, so just take the, you know, the electric motor and transmission from a Prius, skip the engine. You know, and that's that's got 67 horsepower from a modern Prius, and almost 300 foot pounds of torque. So I mean, that would actually be a really good power train to use and then you just have to figure out the battery side of it. You probably need some kind of swappable battery system. But it's it's definitely doable.

Dan Roth  1:14:19  
Yes, this is the kind of thing that Miss disapproves the breed. Either the The worst part is going to be if sort of automakers and big money concerns get in there and just ruin it all with their expensive tech. But I don't think I don't think that's going to happen

Sam Abuelsamid  1:14:35  
in lemans. Although there are a lot of a lot of auto engineers that do raise lemons.

Dan Roth  1:14:41  
Oh, I think it should be mandatory.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:14:43  
And I think journalists do it too.

Dan Roth  1:14:45  
Yeah, I think it's, I would love to do it. I think it's one of those things that should be it should be required if you're engineering cops, because it really gives you that understanding of like what holds up what doesn't what, you know, where the improvement can be had and gets you really in touch with the product. And I honestly do believe that racing improves the breed even the expensive stuff like NASCAR, all the stuff that those car

Sam Abuelsamid  1:15:14  
about NASCAR No, I mean, I only just recently switched from carburetors to fuel injection a few years, a couple of years ago,

Dan Roth  1:15:21  
I know but those those teams work with engineering, you know, suppliers and partners and that stuff like the techniques that they use to make a guess it's like it's it's a spec series, and it's based on on a, you know, an architecture that you would recognize in 1950. But everything is specialized and to make it that specialized is, you know, takes a lot of talent and skill. And I think there's a lot of hard work that gets sort of shortchanged by the fact that it is, you know, NASCAR, but I don't think it's any less high tech in that series then then you would find it that Lamar or an Anything you know, I think it's just different. Yeah. But yeah. All of that stuff does wind up in our cars eventually. And it is true as much as you may think. It doesn't matter anymore. I think it actually really does. And then we've seen that with the endurance series with with electric cars. It's hard to do. And so I'm glad that we're doing it at both ends. And we should definitely do lemons when we can.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:16:23  
Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Roth  1:16:25  
All right. Well, I think that we have we've covered all of our topics. We had some some actual listener feedback, which is nice. They weren't swearing at us.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:16:35  
Yeah, no, we actually had a couple of good questions here. So find the first one here. So first one from Gareth Thomas classic car challenge. You magically get a new extra garage Bay and $15,000 but you must buy a classic car. What do you each get? Let's define classic cars, anything that's at least 25 years old, and it can't be a car you already own?

Dan Roth  1:17:03  
Well, that's not a problem. In terms of the car battery own, I shipped off the Crown Victoria to my brother. So he gets, he gets the family heirlooms and now it's just the jeep. And that's not classic yet. So it's a little difficult. I did, I did some thinking about this, it's really hard to narrow it down to just one What do you have?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:17:24  
Well, I mean, you know, the obvious choice here would be, you know, an early and a Miata, you know, which you can, you know, you can still find really nice examples for under 15 grand, although they have been getting more expensive in the last couple of years. But I was taking a look around even on bring a trailer where the prices tend to be elevated, you know, there were, there were some 9091 miatas, you know, with, you know, under under 100, while I'm under well under 100,000 miles on them, you know, for under 10 grand, but since I already own a 1990 Miata, you know, that obviously disqualifies Elon for me. So, um, I would say the one I would probably choose is second generation to Mr. to you which you know, you can get those for you know, easily for under 15 grand. You know, the first gen, you know, the first gen were pretty cool, but they were, you know, they were a little too small and too tight for for my for my taste, but, you know, I liked it. I really liked the look of the second gen Mr. to the third. The third Gen was the convertible and I think that might fall outside of the 25 year range. I can't remember what year those came out. I think they came out in 95. So that might not qualify. So but the second generation Mr. Two, I think would probably be the one that I

Dan Roth  1:18:47  
would pick. Okay. Um, I it's still tough. There's a lot of cars i'd like you know, I think I was like, I always wanted to have a mn 12 Thunderbirds Super coupe. It's maybe not weird enough.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:19:06  
Weird.

Dan Roth  1:19:07  
Yeah, I know. It's that sort of my own kind of criteria. Uh, you know, air cooled Volkswagens left a big mark on me. So a 412 especially like a 412 wagon would be more

Sam Abuelsamid  1:19:25  
fair,

Dan Roth  1:19:26  
kind of quiet Corvair would be okay, would not mind a Corvair. You know, so it's it's really, those are sort of like I go for the weirder stuff. First generation CR x. Oh, yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:19:41  
Nice. That's a good choice. Yeah,

Dan Roth  1:19:42  
yeah. Especially the SI. Those are super rare. Now you don't even see them anywhere and

Sam Abuelsamid  1:19:49  
most of them have rusted away.

Dan Roth  1:19:51  
Yeah, that's true. Again, that's why I was I thought about the Thunderbirds. I was like, Ah, that's such a like a second. An extension of the 60s and 70s What else do you see? Very little of that. You know what's the car that would make me stop and just talk to the owner for 20 minutes if I saw it at like a car show or something and it is weird stuff like like that car or in is used to is usually stylists.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:20:27  
Yeah, I

Dan Roth  1:20:28  
just say like the different stuff so those are those two things I'd be searching for. Or three things so the 412 or or a 69 Square back and if we're 15 grand you can get a pretty nice air cooled VW and then you can have have fun sort of swapping engines and stuff and playing around with it. There's there's plenty of variety there that the car wrecks I'd probably just want to delete pretty stock, the CSI and then the the is easier. The stylist Those can be a lot of fun you they there, there's a lot of parts been swapping you can do with with those cars into some of the parts are really rare, but you can make your own sort of rally all wheel drive version of it.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:21:12  
Yeah. Well, I mean, there's still a really thriving aftermarket. Yeah, there were so many of those air cooled, VW is built over the years that there's lots of parts you can find. There's lots of people doing stuff with them, you know, it's easy to find all kinds of aftermarket things that you can add to that, to make it more interesting, you know, or do stuff with it.

Dan Roth  1:21:35  
Yeah, I want to you know, it's very much like it's funny. You mentioned the Corvair like that's one of the things that what gets me about the air cooled Volkswagens and the Corvair too, is just the depth of engineering. on display. There's a lot of challenges they had to solve, especially with the Corvair. Yeah. That they solved. Very, very methodically, very cleverly, you know, think about cooling that middle cylinder on that flat six, with with air air cooling, like just keeping that cylinder head from from melting those the those middle cylinders. It's not easy, you know, and and they figured it out in you know 1956

Sam Abuelsamid  1:22:19  
Yeah. Well, you know, they put all their effort into cooling net, you know, and then went with swing axles so yeah, well, yeah, I mean no engineering resources left for a decent suspension.

Dan Roth  1:22:30  
But that's what that's what just kind of stagger the tire pressure. That's one of the things that keeps me out and like thinking more modern too is the stuff even even the 412 would be mid 70s, early to mid 70s. And we're just at a place where cars are safer, cleaner, more efficient when you get into the 80s. And it really does Make a difference, you know? Yeah, the CRS is small but it's not the steering columns not going to spear you

know, like

Sam Abuelsamid  1:23:09  
the body's just gonna, you know kind of collapse like a, like a ball of aluminum foil

Dan Roth  1:23:14  
but yeah, don't hit anything. It's it's nimble though the only car that could beat it in what 84 when it debuted the only car that could out slalom, it was a Ferrari Testarossa. So I

Sam Abuelsamid  1:23:25  
know. And, you know, the, the the car X was about half the width of the Ferrari. So,

Dan Roth  1:23:32  
yeah, Testarossa is really wide. I didn't know why it was so awesome.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:23:37  
For a friend of mine has won a rare CRS convertible. Back in the mid 80s. Richard streaming, who did a lot of non convertible conversions back then, including the Testarossa he, he built some CRS convertibles and he's got one and he bought it about Three years ago, I think bought it out in California or New Mexico and drove it back to Michigan. And it sit in the sand. It's amazing how tiny this I mean, it makes my Miata look big.

Yeah. It's funny.

Dan Roth  1:24:15  
And it is it's especially now where everything is so huge cuz it was a small car even when it was new, but it wasn't that small. You know, it was it was a civic but

Sam Abuelsamid  1:24:24  
yeah, you know, the CR x only weighed I think about 1700 pounds. That's

Dan Roth  1:24:29  
fine. So

Sam Abuelsamid  1:24:31  
you know, didn't have much power. But you know, you didn't need it with that kind of weight.

Dan Roth  1:24:34  
Yeah, it's it's not a it's not a it's not a drag racer. That's not that's not what it's for.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:24:42  
Yeah, with so little weight, you know, you don't need much tire either, you know, to still have great handling.

Dan Roth  1:24:47  
Well, that's, you know, that's a good point. And I wonder, so you're not running into this with your Miata. Now, are you where you can't find good tires. In

Sam Abuelsamid  1:24:55  
the Miata. The Miata is new enough. And the guy bought it from me. Put on a set of 15 inch wheels. Yeah, but even fourteens, you know, the original, you know, the stock wheels on there were 14. So you can still find decent 14 inch wheels or 14 inch tires. You know, but things like the 13th You know, we're on those on those early car axes, and twelves. You know, we're on some, you know, a lot of cars in the 70s 60s and 70s. And even into the early 80s are getting to be really hard to find.

Dan Roth  1:25:29  
Yeah, you can find tires that will fit but the compound is, there's good luck with that, like high performance tire, like it just doesn't doesn't exist anymore. So that those are considerations to um, I mean, I guess sort of the last thing that pops to mind would be a first a second generation RX seven. So

Sam Abuelsamid  1:25:49  
yeah, that's, that's another great one that you know, definitely fits, especially the first gen fits into that price point. Now, you know, with that, especially to the first gen You know, you're depending on where you live, you may have a very hard time getting it to pass emissions. Yeah. You know, and they do consume a lot of oil. And they're, you know, they also consume a lot of gasoline. So you got to keep that in mind. But you can get those for a pretty decent price. And you know, a lot of them still in pretty good condition.

Dan Roth  1:26:20  
Yeah. All right. It's too bad and record my hair. I'd love to hear what her choices are. We'll have to keep this question around. And yeah, pose it to her next time. All right.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:26:29  
So the other question came from Sam Montes.

And

let's see, we're in the market for a new car this year. We keep our cars about 10 years or more. So we've stayed with Toyota for four years. We currently have a 2006 is 250. Lexus IS 250, a 2012 tundra and a 2017 rav4. My wife wanted an electric car but we decided will most likely get a hybrid. I'm very interested in the rav4 plug in hybrid. I see that it has been delayed a bit during the fall it's still coming late summer or, you know, definitely by the fall it'll be here. There may have been some, some delays but not it won't be by much. We like that for short trips it can operate like an electric car I'm concerned with first year of a new car quality issues, your thoughts is this powertrain any other cars anywhere I'd love to see detailed review of the car. I just read that Ford's coming out with the escape plug in hybrid, which we talked about earlier. And I do plan to do a review of that soon as I can get my hands on one. Comparison to be great. We're also considering a traditional hybrid and looking at the Honda CRV or the rav4 Rebecca's report on the noisy CRV electric motors very concerning. do consider a Honda number one Honda number one or two brand new Toyota for reliability. And I would consider your response. I would appreciate response if you plan on these reviews. So, yeah, you know, the I'm getting a high a CRV hybrid and a couple of weeks to drive so we'll let you know pretty soon if that was a one off problem in the car Rebecca drove or if it's a common issue but you know, certainly you know the the plug in hybrid rav4 you know, even though it's first year for that model, I would not be concerned about it because basically, it's the same hardware that's in the existing rav4 hybrid, and that Toyota uses in pretty much every hybrid they build, you know, they almost almost all of their mainstream models are available with hybrid powertrains and they're all basically the same. In some cases, you know, the motors scaled up or down a little bit depending on the size of the vehicle. But, you know, in the the rav4, you know, the really the only notable difference between the the regular rav4 hybrid and the plug in is going to be the size of the battery. Yeah, so you're going to be carrying, you know, dragging around a little more weight for that battery. But, you know, aside from that, I wouldn't worry about the reliability of it at all. And frankly, the same is true, you know, for the, for the Ford as well for the escape plug in hybrid, you know, the rav4, at least based on you know, they haven't got official EPA numbers on it yet, you know, Toyota, the numbers I just projected are a little bit more for range for the RAF than what Ford's got for the escape. But, you know, they're both, you know, pretty close, you know, that upper 30s to 40 mile range, which, you know, for most of your driving means you can go without using any gas and then, you know, when you want to do a road trip, just go and, you know, these modern plugins, you know, unlike, you know, the the C Max, plug in hybrid or the fusion energy plug in hybrid that Ford sold before, these were actually designed, you know, to with, you know, to package protect for the battery anyway, so, They don't give up in either the Rab or the Ford. You're not giving up any cargo space to that battery, you know it all it all fits in there really nicely. So it's you know, they're really they're both going to be really practical alternatives for you.

Dan Roth  1:30:15  
I, I think you need to, to try them because they're also similar. They're all like right on top of each other, the CRV, the rav4, and the escape and you probably don't even need to wait until the hybrids are all out. Just go try them now get a sense of the flavor of the vehicle because the the thing that's going to probably make, you know make the sale for you is whether you can figure out how everything works. The again we come back to just operating the car and the infotainment and the view out and they just ride and drive character. I think the hybrid aside that's what what sets these three apart from you. Other and I can't. I can't say that any of them are necessarily better than the other. They're all very competitive. They all have a slightly different flavor. And so you got to figure out which which you like the best. I know that of the three I probably like the Ford's infotainment the best. Cuz Toyota's getting a little better Honda's I don't know it's been a while since I've been in a CRV but you know those two they seem to while they are market leaders they seem to lag and so if that's important to you, if you do you know Apple CarPlay or Android Auto or just you know you nav a lot or whatever. Play with them and go go spend some some time some some research. I do wonder why the decision to go hybrid versus Eevee. I wonder if that comes back to wanting to cover all the bases and have a vehicle that you don't have range anxiety. or anything but you have a couple of other vehicles. You know the ISU 50 is a little bit tight. The tundra is a little bit inefficient. So maybe if you wanted something that you could do longer trips

Sam Abuelsamid  1:32:12  
well and they have a they have a 2017 rav4 already. Yeah. They're I think they're replacing the probably replacing the is which is the oldest of the okay. Yeah.

Dan Roth  1:32:23  
So I was gonna say like, if if you've got something that you can do a road trip with that you trust, then there's really not an argument for not going for levy. But well, that's not true. There's less of an argument,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:32:39  
you know, it depends on where you live. I mean, you know, the survey says they have three vehicles. I'm assuming they live, you know, single family home, you know, have a driveway in a garage so they could plug in.

You know, I?

's I'm assuming they don't live in an apartment with

Dan Roth  1:32:54  
those reviews. Oh, he says they're there. They're in California. Right. About an hour from Petaluma. So Oh, northern counties in California. Oh,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:33:01  
yeah. So, you know, that's, you know, easy climate, so you're not going to be worrying about winter weather. You know, I, I wouldn't rule out an Eevee you know, I would definitely you know, and if you want to look at an Eevee I would definitely look at the key in euro electric. And, and actually the Nero is also available as both a hybrid and a plug in hybrid. But you know, the electric has 240 mile range. You also take a look at the Hyundai Kona electric the Kona has got about 260 mile range 259 miles

Dan Roth  1:33:36  
Corona is a little tight compared to these

Sam Abuelsamid  1:33:38  
that's Yeah, so I was gonna say the Kona's backseat is definitely tighter, the the Niro a little, a little roomier, a little more practical. And then look at the Chevy Bolt. You know, the bolt is an excellent car, you know, got lots of room inside, you know, despite its small physical footprint on the road, it's it's surprisingly roomy inside, you know, decent cargo space, you know, and it's, it's pretty reasonably priced as well. So, you know, definitely take a look at those three electrics as well. But yeah, I mean even before the the plugins, the plug in hybrids are on the dealer lots, you know, go in and take a look at the the hybrid versions, you know, go drive those, you know, because they're they're great, the hybrids are going to drive basically the same as the plug in hybrid. Yeah, that's true, except that you're going to go farther on electricity. So, you know, go drive them, you know, see if you like the way they look and the feel and the controls work for you. And try out those three electrics the the Kona, the neuro and the bolt.

Dan Roth  1:34:46  
Okay, so we solve that problem. Let us know what you get. Yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:34:52  
All right. And I think with that, let's call it a show.

Dan Roth  1:34:56  
Yeah. So we'll be back soon. So thanks for listening. And will you know where to hit us up. So please keep doing so and I will let you know what I wind up with when I'm when I'm car shopping. I've moved on from Mercedes wagons. I had a Silverado that I talked about a couple weeks ago. I was like, Man, it's not bad having a truck. Now like it's a lot harder to find a good used pickup truck than it is to find a good used Mercedes wagon. Most

Sam Abuelsamid  1:35:28  
well actually. Now that you mentioned the Mercedes, you know, I mean that if you could have gotten that 15 grand that would have been at all It wasn't 25 years old though. So Nevermind.

Dan Roth  1:35:37  
No, no, you can definitely get a UK you can get an old Mercedes. Right. I've done the I wanted something weirder. Yeah. So all right. All right. Thanks for watching. See you next time.

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