Sam Abuelsamid  0:00  
Well,

Welcome to wheel bearings Episode 167. And we've got a little bit of a mash up today. Dan is busy this Sunday morning, as Rebecca and I are recording this segment. So we'll be packed Dan we patching in some conversation that I have with him a little bit later on today, but for right now, I'm Sam abou el Samad from guidehouse insights. 

Rebecca Lindland  0:25  
And I'm Rebecca Lindland from Rebecca drives. 

Sam Abuelsamid  0:27  
And Rebecca. You've been driving the ultimate family hauler this week.

Rebecca Lindland  0:33  
I have been, so I got the chance to drive the 2021 Toyota Sienna minivan. This thing is redesigned, it looks absolutely fantastic. I there's such an improvement in the interior. There's a lot to like about this minivan. The first thing is the second row reclining seats. It's like having a Barka lounger in your in your minivan. Does it have progress? It has foot rests, it has a lot puts out all my gosh. So awesome. I unfortunately, schedules did not align with the smaller humans in my life, the younger ones. So we had a road trip planned. And unfortunately, school that evil evil thing interrupted our plan. What is the school thing? Is that? Is that that stuff that you do at home? Oh, resumes? Yeah, exactly. So unfortunately, we weren't able to do but my niece Avery was willing to at least sit in the driveway and have a good time playing around with everything. So the interior is vastly improved from the previous version of this, they just in the materials are really nice on it. I mean, obviously, I think I had a fully loaded one, and a pre production model, because it's not on sale yet. But they just did a really great job with it. There's kind of a place for everything. One of the things I loved about it is that there's a on the on the center console on the right side. First of all, there's a really nice, very intuitive gear selector, which I like, it's just, I didn't have to practice in my driveway, you know what I mean, to learn how to select all the different gears. And then tucked in front of that is a wireless charging pad that also has USB keys. And so your phone is accessible without being in a cupholder something. It's without being right in front of you. And you also you can't see the screen, but it's accessible, which I like because sometimes you don't want to be fumbling around for your phone. Well, I'm always you should never be fumbling around for your phone. Even a traffic light or something. Yeah, right. Like that's the thing. Like even if you're stopped a, you know, at a traffic light or something. It's just I prefer to have it accessible without being a distraction. And I think they did a good job with that. On the left side is this little before before you proceed one quick question. Does it have support for wireless CarPlay and Android Auto? Or is it just through the USB? It's only through the USB? Because when I didn't have it plugged in, I did not have access to Android Auto. Okay. When I did use Android Auto is excellent. So you can escape from the Intune system. So the other fun thing is on the left side is at that same kind of mid level is this little flat surface. It's about three inches long and about two inches deep. And it's perfect for a mask. So very on trend.

Sam Abuelsamid  3:39  
Is that is that slot, you know intended to be like bird sticking a fallen or something in there?

Rebecca Lindland  3:45  
No, it's smaller than that. I'm thinking maybe change? I don't know people still have tollbooths around. I know, some do. But you know, maybe put the key there for maybe, but I really found it was actually an ideal place to keep my mask rub again, like rather than in the cupholder. Right. I and so folded up neatly and keep it there. You can always have a mask in the car. So I really liked that. And just the you know, the overall when you buy a minivan you buy it with a family in mind. And even though I forgot to get married, I can still get into that mind having a family

Sam Abuelsamid  4:24  
Well, I mean, you're you're you're, you know, you're in the fortunate position, I think of you know, having a an on demand family, because you have lots of you have lots of siblings and they have kids and so you know, you can you can take the kids for short bursts of time you don't have to worry about putting money away into a college fund and dealing with all the vagaries of adolescence and don't even

Rebecca Lindland  4:47  
believe me I have I have yet to regret not getting married. But it's you know so I've been I get into this mindset of you know if my nieces and nephews are with me You know, or my my friend Lorraine's kids who I went on vacation with back in the summertime, and they actually have the old version of the Toyota minivan. So there's just the right amount of durability in the materials of luxury for the parents of really thoughtful, thoughtful touches in this, and I just think they did a really, really nice job with it, it looks really nice. You know, it has a it for a cat for a minivan, it has a relatively sleek appearance, the proportions are never going to be great, because you always have a really short overhang with minivans and that,

Sam Abuelsamid  5:40  
you know, it's it's a box on wheels, you know, which is which is meant for hauling people and stuff, which, you know, it, it's designed around a specific kind of task a specific kind of use case. And there is no other form factor that does those use cases better than a minivan? Yeah, exactly. So many families today use SUVs and crossovers. But, you know, they, I've always thought that they were extremely compromised for the use case of hauling a family cuz, I mean, having, you know, having gone through the process of having kids that went from Little to adult. Yeah, they do that one of the, you know, you know, trying to strap kids into booster seats and child seats, you know, with an SUV that sits up higher, and you get hinged doors and all this. I mean, we never had a minivan, you know, on a full time basis, you know, I had them at various times, you know, test vehicles, and it was always better having a minivan. You know, I mean, the sliding doors, I mean, that is the sliding doors are amazing. Because, you know, whenever kids open the door, you know, if there's a car beside you, there's going to be a dent in that door. You know, afterwards, sliding doors never have to worry about that you always have lots of space, the floor, you know, you're up high enough, but you know, you have that big opening and the floors is lower, it's easier to reach in to, you know, get the kids situated and get them buckled in properly and everything. It's just, it's just such a much better vehicle for for that use case.

Rebecca Lindland  7:16  
No, it really is. I mean, I, I love the easy ingress and egress. And it actually is ideal for grandparents as well. If you live near your grandchildren to be able to go and pick them up from school to be able to you know, when you're taking them places, it's it's, it's a it really fits multiple, a variety of life cycle of lifestyles. The other thing to lifestyles and stages, I should say. And, you know, the back seats, this was very, very clever. So the this was the one that I had was a seven seat. And because it has the captain's chairs in the middle, the but the back row, that third row, it was a fold flat. And then when you needed the third row and you could pull them up was a little bit awkward to get them into position. But once they were in position and locked in position, you still had a big amount of room behind those seats for things like luggage and, and stuff. And, you know, I think about my friend Lorraine's kids, there's four kids, and there's six people in that van all the time. And like when we went down to Virginia, we had a lot of stuff that we needed to pile in there. And having the ability to that extra couple of feet, there was a lot of room in the back also where you could really put you know, it went down really deep and you could put a lot of stuff in there. And again, I appreciate it that there was a cooler in the middle you know, the the AB screens that came down all sorts of stuff.

Sam Abuelsamid  8:52  
So when you say this, the third row seats fold flat is that the style of seats that you've pulled them down and then it flipped back into that lower been behind the rear wheels.

Rebecca Lindland  9:02  
Yes, but there was an additional lower bin then still, when they were locked in place, I'll send you a picture, okay. Because then I put I put luggage, I put groceries back in there, I went to IKEA. I went up to IKEA and didn't didn't buy any furniture, but bought a couple of things. And so I I'll I'll make sure that we have pictures of it to show you what I'm talking about because I was really pleasantly surprised at how much room there was back there. There's a cooler in the middle which my niece loved. The only thing is that when you fold the she folded down this really large like kind of movie screen that they have in the middle of the vehicle. And when I when I went to look in my rearview mirror, it was completely blocked, fully blocked, which makes sense because it's enormous, but it's just something to keep in mind when you're driving. That you're really going to compromise your rear view mirror. I don't know, I apologize. I don't know if it has that cool thing that GM vehicles and Land Rover has where it turns into a camera.

Sam Abuelsamid  10:10  
Yeah, looking at, I'm looking at the the press release right now it does offer a digital rearview mirror. And that looks like that center HD screen is 11.6 inches. So that is a good size, it's a good size. And so they looks like they do offer a camera mirror system, which you would definitely want to take advantage of.

Rebecca Lindland  10:29  
Right you would now with that system, of course, that means that you can't see the inside of the car. Because the camera the rearview mirror turns into a camera, and it shows you the the outside view from outside your bat, your rear view of what would be your rear view mirror view, but then you can't see the inside of it. And I bought, I'm not doing a very good job describing this. But you know, there's there's just a lot to like in this thing. We This was also the hybrid version, which is a new version, a new choice for the Toyota Sienna. Technically it has a 2.5 liter four cylinder, a 243 horsepower, it does have a CVT. And I think my only the only thing I really had an issue with because there were so many good things about it was man that CBT it was it felt underpowered in many conditions. And it also was incredibly loud. This was a pre production model. I'm really, really hoping that they put additional insulation in the engine compartment because, for instance, I was on a call. And as I'm going up the hill on the Merritt Parkway, which is very, very hilly nearby here, route 15. I had to apologize to the person I was on the phone with and say I hope you can still hear me because it was so loud in the car. So I'm hoping that's a pre production issue. I just I felt you know, there's so many really good four cylinders, a 2.5 litres should be good. Sam and I were talking earlier, the Toyota Highlander hybrid has it. And I didn't definitely didn't have that same feeling. And again, I wonder, you know, I was by myself in this thing for 99% of the time I was driving it. I can't imagine what it would be like under full load. I think it would be. I feel I felt like it was straining. I was kind of disappointed in that in that regard. I mean,

Sam Abuelsamid  12:30  
this is this is the same power train. That's that's in a you mentioned the Highlander hybrid. It's also in the Camry and the Avalon. One. Yeah, it's in all of Toyotas, larger front drive vehicles. It's the same, the exact same powertrain. One thing that's that's interesting. Yeah, in fact, the the hybrid is the only powertrain option right now, for the 2020.

Rebecca Lindland  12:53  
I wasn't sure because they haven't. The full specs are not out there yet. But yeah, that's the only one. That's

Sam Abuelsamid  13:02  
the only thing they have listed right now. They may offer v six later, who knows? Yeah,

Rebecca Lindland  13:06  
well, and I wonder if you can, if they'll offer a four cylinder non hybrid?

Sam Abuelsamid  13:14  
I don't know. You know, I mean, if you had a four cylinder non hybrid, it would probably have less power than the hybrid powertrain. Wow. Because Because with the hybrid, you've got that extra juice from the electric motor in addition to the four cylinder. Now, you know, in the hybrid configuration, the four cylinder runs a little bit differently runs on what they call an Atkinson cycle, which has a little bit less power and torque, so net, a normal vorstellen 2.5 liter four cylinder. Typically the way, you know, you find it in most applications, including most Toyota's where they have that option, like in the Camry, the the output of the four cylinder is greater than the output of the four cylinder, that's the hybrid, but it's less than the total combined output of the engine plus the electric motor. So, you know, I think, a four cylinder, you know, if the hybrid is straining, and this thing is a standard four cylinder probably would be as well, but then it's it seems odd, because, you know, the hybrid in the, the Highlander, you know, didn't really seem to, you know, be straining very much, you know, it seemed to have adequate power. So I wonder if there's something about the calibration on this pre production model that wasn't quite up to snuff.

Rebecca Lindland  14:31  
Maybe I mean, I did try it in the there's three modes available. I tried it in all three modes. Sport was a little bit but I think also part of it was that it was so loud and and I shouldn't confuse loudness with straining, but or see.

Sam Abuelsamid  14:49  
You're hearing it work.

Rebecca Lindland  14:51  
Right. I'm hearing it and it feels painful. I was like, I'm sorry, but I need to get on to the house. way,

Sam Abuelsamid  15:01  
that's kind of the opposite of what you typically expect in a hybrid, you know, you know, hybrid should generally be quieter, you know, because you're right, you're going back and forth between, you know, engine off engine on modes. And typically, manufacturers try to keep that engine on mode, quieter, so you don't notice that transition as much.

Rebecca Lindland  15:22  
Right. And, and the sport mode is designed to get more acceleration. They describe it unlocks boost from the hybrid system for improved acceleration response. I, it wasn't noticeable enough, but it is there. And and perhaps this is a pre production situation where I'm, you know, if it was quieter, I may not have noticed the straining as much. It just, it was, you know, the CBT was also incredibly windy. I mean, it was kind of all the time, I felt like so you know, driving around town, it's not a big deal. Certainly on the highway, though, it was very, very noticeable to me. And so that was that was you know, and it's funny, because it says, in the press releases, the car driver will feel ultra smooth acceleration and hear very little noise. That is my, the exact opposite of my experience with this thing. So they also estimate fuel economy at 33. I got 26.6. So I wasn't really anywhere close to that. And I would not say that I was abusing it, I think I drove, you know, typically 60 to 65 on the highway, I don't think I was particularly aggressive with this, it was, again, just something that I noticed almost immediately that it was very, very loud. So hopefully, their plans for the model that they release the the, you know, the typical production models will have more engine insulation, because otherwise there was a lot you know, a lot to love. I love the big seven inch multicolor display. And you know, I got a lot of it was easy to use, it was intuitive to use there, the infotainment system. So there's a lot in here and the pricing. While it hasn't been announced, the current Sienna starts at about 35. And I would think that we could see something, you know, in that range, maybe maybe a little bit higher for the hybrid. There, the current Sienna 2020 Sienna starts at 34 four, and then the higher trims go up to 3738 in that range. But, you know, lots of safety equipment on it. Lots of good things, it just I'll be curious to see as these vehicles come out what the responses to just the noise from the engine,

Sam Abuelsamid  17:57  
especially, you know, if they do offer a regular non hybrid version, I think yes, I think right now there, you know, because minivan sales have declined a lot over the last decade. There, I would guess they're probably leaning towards just sticking with the hybrid only. Yeah, because you know that they're doing that with the Venza as well the new midsize crossover. Yep. It's also only available with this hybrid powertrain.

Rebecca Lindland  18:23  
Which is funny because I had that and I don't know if I spoke about it on the show, actually, I was thinking about that, because I definitely didn't have that same experience. So I am wondering if this was just a pre production issue with the noise, the the in cabin engine noise, because the Venza i thought was terrific. And the same thing with the Avalon. So, you know, I'm hoping that this was just just a pre production issue. I because it's, you know, I would definitely encourage our listeners to if you're in the market for a minivan, to go and test it out once they come out and just pay attention, pay attention to the engine noise, pay attention to the CVT, and what your experience is with it. I don't know maybe if you have the infotainment system on and you have kids in the car, and there's a lot of noise inside the car, you won't notice it as much. I was again a little disappointed. The other thing I wanted to mention too, is when you were talking about the sliding doors, just a little pro tip I always try if I if I have the option, I try and park next to a minivan as opposed to an SUV. Because while the driver may not be paying as much attention, you know, you're not going to get a door ding with the sliding doors.

Sam Abuelsamid  19:41  
Excellent point. Yeah, you know, and one one last thing on the powertrain side, it wouldn't surprise me if you know in the next year or so, if Toyota actually offers a Sienna prime with the plug in hybrid system that's on the shirt, the rav4 prime and the Prius Prime You know, and that, you know, in the rav4, you know, the rav4 prime, the plug in hybrid is actually the most powerful version of the rap. And it's, it's just over 300 horsepower. And it's it's quick, you know, that might be the direction that Toyota is planning to go instead of offering a V six.

Rebecca Lindland  20:17  
Well, and when you think about the Chrysler Pacifica hybrid, you know, and they have a plug in version of it, I definitely didn't have these kinds of noise issues and and perception of underpowered. Right, and again, part of it could be just from the noise because I it was so obvious, but again, I it's, it's still there's so many good things about it, that I still think that if you're in the market for one, it's definitely worth a test drive on it.

Sam Abuelsamid  20:45  
Cool. All right. Well, hopefully, we'll find out a little bit more soon. All right, I had the Audi s5 Sportback, originally the a five you know, was the coop based on the a4, the mid size a4 sedan, and then they had a convertible and then they added the sport back the sport back is a five door hatchback, you know, fastback hatchback. And, you know, it's certainly not you know, as sexy looking as the the coupe and convertible. But, you know, I actually really like it. I really like this form factor, the hatchback form factor.

Rebecca Lindland  21:20  
I love the Audi hatchbacks they just do such a great job.

Sam Abuelsamid  21:24  
Yeah, you know, and this is, you know, it's, it's very much like the a seven, you know, just kind of a three quarter scale version of the a seven. So, you know, it's, it's got, you know, everything we love about driving Audi's you know, it's, it's got a really tight buttoned down feel to it, the car itself feels really solid, you know, always you know, really nice premium materials really well executed interior. You know, they did a mid cycle update on the a four a five platform last year, I think they switched up the, the infotainment system, the the a four a five series was the one of the last outies to have the the center MMI controller, they've gone to a touchscreen. So right now, it's, it's not the same as what we've previously talked about, you know, on the the bigger Audi's where they have the dual touchscreen system, we have an upper and a lower screen. And they have haptic feedback on there, this is just more standard. And this one definitely has more of that tacked on look where, you know, it looks like a tablet that's been bolted to the top of the dashboard. It doesn't feel integrated or designed in you know, the interface is fine, you know, it's not. Yeah, it's good. You know, it's a good interface. I mean, I don't have to go on and on, you know, again, about how much I hate touchscreens and cars. I, I have I mentioned that I hate touchscreen cars.

Rebecca Lindland  22:58  
You may mentioned it once or twice. Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  23:00  
I actually preferred the old setup with with the MMI controller, but it is what it is, you know, I have to deal with it. So it's, you know, it's a it's a decent interface. It's got support for Android Auto CarPlay not wireless yet, but it does have the support for both systems in there. You know, the system is clean enough, it's responsive. So that's that part is good. The s5 is kind of the middle of the range. So, you know in this in typical outtie fashion, you have the A models, which are the mainstream models, the s5 are sportier models and then you have the RS models, which are the more hardcore models those are the equivalent to the BMW M's and the AMG s. The s models are you know, more the M M Sport and AMG AMG line I think is what Mercedes called there's so it's it's that middle level. It's got a three liter twin turbo V six engine 349 horsepower, all wheel drive, it's a quatrro typical outtie fashion, eight speed tiptronic automatic transmission. It's this one had, you know a bunch of options on there and had the prestige package on there with a Bang and Olufsen audio system which sounds great you know the Audi Virtual Cockpit the hat the heads up display.

Rebecca Lindland  24:33  
Did you try the traffic jam assist? I

Sam Abuelsamid  24:36  
did try it. I did I did try it you know the you know to the degree I was able to the the Audi eight stuff the adaptive cruise control and traffic jam assist generally worked really well. It's very smooth. And you know it's also got side what they call side assist which is your it it uses the the radar on the radar sensors on the rear corners, which are used for blind spot monitoring, so what it does is, you know, if it detects a vehicle in your blind spot on either side, when you put on the turn signal to do a lane change, it will alert you that there's something there and also, you know, give some steering assist to try to keep you in the lane. You know, if you, you can push through it, but you know it, it will try to keep you in the lane if, if possible to avoid a collision there. So those are some really good things. The the engine, you know, that three litre twin turbo V six, lovely engine, you know, really smooth. You know, like, like I talked about when I talked about the Cadillac CT four v. A few weeks back, it doesn't feel, you know, exceptionally powerful even though you know, 350 horsepower, almost just shy of 350. And all wheel drive it, it doesn't feel like it's leaping off the line. But it's it's definitely quick, you know, so it doesn't, it doesn't quite have the the visceral appeal, or the visceral experience that you would have, like, if you went to an RS, right, he's got an RS five, you know, that would tend to have a much more aggressive feel to it. This is a much more refined feel.

Rebecca Lindland  26:21  
It's funny that you say that, because that was sort of my feedback from the Q seven that I had was that it was so refined as to as almost eliminate that emotional connection to the vehicle.

Sam Abuelsamid  26:35  
Yes.

Rebecca Lindland  26:37  
You know, like, I kind of I want to feel some g forces going. Yeah. smoothed out.

Sam Abuelsamid  26:43  
Yeah, you can, you can definitely feel the G's, you know, when you're cornering? I mean, is great handling, great cornering. And you'll, you'll feel the Jeez. I mean, you know, it's quick, but it, it doesn't, it doesn't feel as quick as it is. You know, it's kind of hard to describe the engines,

Rebecca Lindland  27:02  
like a disconnect. Yeah, it's a little bit of a disconnect. Because this is exactly how I felt with the, with the Q seven. It's just interesting that you bring that up in what is supposed to be a sports sedan, or hatchback

Sam Abuelsamid  27:13  
thing? Yeah. And, you know, when you when you put it in dynamic mode, I think it is what they call it, you know, the sport mode, you know, you do get a little bit more sound, and I like the sound that the sound Yeah, it's, it's not, you know, it's not, you know, kind of the rumbling v eight sound, it's, it's a much more refined precision, mechanical sound. But it's, it's really good. It's not loud, but it's there, you know, so you get some of that, so that, that does help, you know, to enhance that visceral feeling. But, you know, it's, it's definitely not, you know, the hardcore sports machine, you know, it doesn't, doesn't have that kind of feel to it. You know, the, the one I had was on the optional 20 inch, five, five twin spoked wheels, which are great looking wheels, it was on summer tires. And even on those 20s, the ride quality was still really good. And this is, this is one of the things that Audi's you know, done really well is getting a balance between handling and ride quality, you know, not that sacrificing ride quality, even with the big wheels and tires, you know, and you'll, you'll feel the road but it doesn't, it doesn't pound you. So it does a good job, especially the small, sharp, you know, inputs from the from the road, you know, those still get filtered out pretty well. So it's it, it does does a really good job with that. They, you know, the nice thing about having the hatchback is, you know, you have a big cargo area in the back, I think there's about 25 cubic feet in the back with the rear seats up. And then you know, if you need to carry larger stuff, you can always drop the seats down and have, I think close over 50 cubic feet of cargo space in the back. Which, you know, if you're finding stuff at a garage sale or state sale, you know, or bringing stuff home from from the big box store, you know, you can easily fit it in there without any problem.

Rebecca Lindland  29:08  
So remember, years ago, I had I when I was moving from Massachusetts, down to Connecticut, I had the the seven It was my media car that week. But I actually I mean, I loaded that thing. And it was definitely like the sexiest moving band that I've ever seen. Because you could fit a ton in there. That's what I love about hatchbacks is that they're, they're so practical, but they don't look practical, but they secretly are.

Sam Abuelsamid  29:41  
Yeah, very fun. You know, in most cases, you know, unless you're piling stuff all the way up to the roof. You know, so you can't see out the back. You know, they've got as much or more space typically in there than you would find in a comparable sized SUV or crossover. Right so

Rebecca Lindland  29:59  
you're not fine is over He's a little compromised. But yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  30:01  
but most people aren't piling stuff up all the way up anyway, most of the time, so you still have plenty of room back there for stuff. So even if you're going on a road trip, you know, with, with your partner and another couple or with, you know, kids, you still have room for, you know, four suitcases and assorted other accoutrements in the back there without any problem. Yeah, so absolutely. So it's, you know, it's very practical vehicle. not inexpensive. You know, the one I had, including the destination charge came to $69,240. But, you know, in this segment, you know, in this premium segment, it's competitive, you know, it's about what you'd pay. I mean, I think the the, the Cadillac was similarly priced. If I recall,

Rebecca Lindland  30:47  
Harry's I think it's,

Sam Abuelsamid  30:49  
you know, three series and, and BMW is discontinuing the three series gt the Grand Touring. I think they, I think they dropped it at the end of last year, which would have been the closest comparable vehicle to this. And that one was never as sleek looking as the Audi's you know, we're always a little bit taller, a little frumpy, are looking. And this one, you know, so this one, you know, always had more of a more sporty feel to it than the three series GT. So that's gone. Mercedes has never really offered anything, you know, quite comparable to this. So there isn't. There isn't really anything else out there quite like this anymore. Yeah, no,

Rebecca Lindland  31:29  
there really isn't because the Genesis g 70 is a traditional sedan, right. Yeah, Lexus doesn't really have

Sam Abuelsamid  31:38  
the closest thing to this would be the the Kia stinger. Yeah. Right. And I'm not sure how many people are gonna cross shop a stinger, you know, a cheetah with an Audi. But, you know, actually, in a lot of ways, you know, you, you really should, you should be shopping it you know, and, you know, the the stinger with the twin turbo V six, you know, is going to offer comparable performance to this. It's a similar size, you know, similar form factor. And you know, that that fastback hatchback design. So, if you're and you know, the stinger is available with rear wheel drive, which you can't get an Audi, you know, so if you don't need all wheel drive, you know, and I think the s5 is only available as a quatro. But the a five is available in front wheel drive as well.

Rebecca Lindland  32:23  
And you know, even if you think about, like, even the Tesla Model three, I was really disappointed when I found out that it wasn't a hatchback, because it's one of things I liked about the Model S is that it was like, again, the yield to a broad range of these sedan type vehicles that actually are Sportback, because even the Buick Regal, that was as far back and that's been canceled.

Sam Abuelsamid  32:47  
Yeah, exactly. The other one kind of in this class,

Rebecca Lindland  32:51  
right. So no, well, that's fantastic.

Sam Abuelsamid  32:56  
Now that we're finished with the garage with Rebecca, for the time being, Dan is finally you're taking a break from painting his house, and we'll talk about what Dan was driving this week, Dan?

Dan Roth  33:05  
Yeah, I didn't manage to get any on me or on the window. 

Sam Abuelsamid  33:09  
That's impressive.

Dan Roth  33:11  
Yeah, I didn't even get any on the dog. There was time. I got some. I have spent the last week in a couple of vehicles that we actually one of them at least we just talked about. Recently, I had the the 2021 Nissan Rogue. And so I went back and listened to our segment when you you actually did the drive for this? Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  33:32  
I did the media drive. But you know, I only had a couple of hours with it.

Dan Roth  33:36  
Yeah, well, I got a full week. So it was, it was interesting. I wanted to sort of compare and contrast my impressions versus yours. And I think actually, they they line up pretty well, the thing that I remember you saying was like for all that's good about it, and there's a lot that's good. It's just okay, you know, like, not not necessarily just okay, but it's just, it's not it doesn't stand out in the segment. Right. And it's admittedly a very tough segment. And I was like, I don't know, I really liked it for the week. But I come back to the same, same thing. It's a big class. And so it is, it's a much better vehicle. It's nice in and out, but how are you going to remember to recommend it? And I think that's that's sort of what I wanted to sort of pull on a little bit was, do you think you'd ever find the road sort of at the top of your recommendation list? Would you where would you go first?

Sam Abuelsamid  34:37  
That's, you know, that's a that's a great question. You know, obviously, you know, rav4 You know, that's that's kind of like the go to for most people. The you know, the CRV is good. At least the gas CRV, the hybrid, you know, I think is not quite as good as either the rav4 or the The Escape hybrids if you know if you're if you're interested in a hybrid in this class, you know, and then you've got the new Hyundai Tucson coming up shortly, you know, they recently revealed it, you know, and I obviously none of us have driven it yet. But the Tucson, you know, at least from a design standpoint, it really stands out from the crowd. Yeah, so, you know, those are, those are probably, you know, where I would look, you know, if you're looking for something with more offroad capability, probably, you know, one of the jeeps either the the compass or the Cherokee. But yeah, those, those would probably be the ones I would look to first.

Dan Roth  35:39  
Yeah, I think it's, it's just gonna get lost to a certain degree. And I think that's kind of a shame, because I think you're, we agree on the things that are good, you know, the style is good, the interior is good, it's a big upgrade. The power train is fine. It's well isolated from the rest of the car, which is nice. I noticed, driving the road, one of the things I've really liked the most about it was how much they've improved. NVH and, you know, cut down on road noise, it's quiet. And that's relaxing. And when, when you have a family vehicle, sometimes you just want some damn quiet. Yeah. So it's good in that way. And, you know, the loading area is pretty decent, the, the front and rear seats like, you know, there's just no space complaints there. It's, it's really right on for for everything it needs to do. So on the paperwork, comparison, it's, it's great. And there in the real world. It also you know, it fulfills its mission without much of an issue. The the sort of standout stuff that they've managed to do, I think it is it is that sort of serenity that you have when you drive it and the power train. feels really good. Now they one of the things I think they did on the verse in Sentra, and probably during the development of this model two is they worked really hard on the CVT to improve the sensation of driving behind that transmission because I think it's important to their overall emissions and fuel economy. Goals. So I don't think that the CVT is going away, and Nissan vehicles and so they work I think pretty hard to make it feel more satisfying. It does some simulations of gear changes and stuff when necessary, and I think it overall around town, it's it's very smooth. And so that, again adds to some of the impression of refinement there was a couple of things I missed, I really wanted 110 volt outlet you know, cuz using it as a family car, we took it to, we took it to football practice, and I want it to sit in the back on the laptop and just, you know, yeah, you go play your thing, get some energy. I'm gonna sit here and do some work. And it didn't have an outlet for a charger. So I thought that was actually kind of an oversight. because that tends to be one of the things that we find ourselves doing is every charging port is generally populated. And then there's there's also something plugged into that, that hundred 10 volt outlet. So I missed that a little bit. It didn't, I can't, I don't think it had a power hatch. Which again, like these are these are niceties and I hadn't SV. So I'm sure you can get it on different trims. It's been a few days since it left and I don't have my exact notes in front of me. But, you know, it just it doesn't have a ton of personality. And I think that's where it sort of sort of comes up short. Although I will say the one vehicle I sort of completely forget about in this segment now. Is the escape. Yeah. And I I don't know why. But I would probably land on recommending the the rug before the escape because they just the escape seems like they I don't know, did you think they like botched it or something I just have you haven't seen it or heard about it much. Almost like you're not that proud of it.

Sam Abuelsamid  39:24  
You know, I think that they, you know, they haven't talked about it too much. But it's actually selling really well. You know, if you look at the sales figures, you know, through the end of September, you know, it's it's selling at a really good pace. So I don't think they I don't necessarily think they think they botched it. It's it's certainly finding an audience.

Dan Roth  39:48  
So what was when was it new was new just at the end of

Sam Abuelsamid  39:52  
read the end of 2019 like you know, production started, you know, like our sales started I think in November of last Last year,

Dan Roth  40:01  
well, that explains quite a bit, they had maybe three or four months. Yeah, before everything completely changed. So that may have something to do, I liked the escape when I drove it. But I don't think it's as efficient. It's it, Hmm, I would have to have the numbers in front of me, but just off the top of my head, the rug felt roomier than the escape. And I, you know, it's expensive to wear the robe, I think is a better deal.

Sam Abuelsamid  40:32  
The rogue is generally a pretty good value, there's a bunch of trim levels that are pretty good price point. But you know, when you start to get into that, the SV, which I think is the is the second from the top trim levels, and the platinum, you know, now, you know, you're, you're talking, you know, mid 30s price point, you know, platinum, you know, upper 30s, for the platinum. And that's right in line with, you know, where the rest of the market is, oh, you know, the other one that I forgot on the list that I often recommend is the Mazda CX five, you know, which is also in this class. But again, you know, the CX five lacks a hybrid option. So for somebody that's looking for, you know, something in this class with better fuel efficiency, you know, there's, there's really, at the moment, you know, you've got the escape and the rav4. And then the Tucson is going to have a hybrid and plug in hybrid variant as well.

Dan Roth  41:27  
Yeah. And that's one of the other things that I missed, too, was the ability to, to have that, that hybrid option. I think that's actually really important for this class. And I'm surprised that not everybody's doing it. And Nissan, especially with their Eevee experience with the leaf, you would think that they'd have some technology that they could easily port over and make a plugin, or hybrid verb.

Sam Abuelsamid  41:51  
Well, you know, Nissan's had a strange relationship with hybrids, you know, they've, they've always been kind of, they've never been particularly committed to them, the first hybrid they did, was they ultimate back in 2007, eight timeframe, and that they bought the drive units from Toyota, they use the Toyota hybrid system.

Dan Roth  42:13  
It was just not good.

Sam Abuelsamid  42:15  
Right. And then, you know, then they did a hybrid on the Infiniti Q 50. Which, I never drove one of those, but I never heard much great about them. And then, you know, there was the the Pathfinder, which was more mild hybrid ish.

Dan Roth  42:32  
You know, hybrid Pathfinder.

Sam Abuelsamid  42:34  
Yeah, they did. And they, exactly, they didn't sell very many of them. And then they briefly did a rogue hybrid as well, on the previous generation rogue, and, you know, that never got much attention either. So, you know, they've always, they don't seem to have ever gotten really very excited about hybrids. But they did acknowledge, you know, when we did at the media drive, you know, we asked them about that. And they said, Yeah, they're, they're working on a hybrid, there's going to be a new hybrid version coming.

Dan Roth  43:02  
That's good. I mean, it really should be in this segment. I think people are really looking for it, and they're accepting it more and almost expecting it to a certain degree.

Sam Abuelsamid  43:15  
Yeah. Well, you know, the thing is, in the past, you know, there was always kind of a compromise with hybrids from from a performance standpoint. And nowadays, that's no longer the case. It's, you know, there's really, you know, they're they're pretty natural feeling that you know, for the most part, you know, and so you're not really compromising much to get a hybrid in a vehicle like this, you know, it just it just drives normally and gets just gets really good fuel economy.

Dan Roth  43:38  
Yeah, well, especially since this already has a CVT, right? It's really not going to change its character at all right? This is a really solid upgrade I think like you like you said a few weeks ago. The the interior of the thing I love about it is they're playing with materials a little bit so it had it You're the one who drove half the cloth inserts like in the door panels and

Sam Abuelsamid  43:59  
I drove the platinum. So okay, so yeah, it had it had the leather.

Dan Roth  44:04  
So this has, like in the on the door panel. It's almost like where you'd have like wood or metal or plastic trim. It had like cloth, it looked like it was from a suit. You know, it's like a little little pinstripe kind of pattern is it's different and it was enough that I just I paused for a minute and I looked at it so I really like that like it looks it looks good. And this had a couple colors that had a little bit of brown tone on the top of the dash and the top of the doors and then the materials were definitely upgraded throughout the rug. For this, this model, the they decided to reinvent the shifter again. And it in the SV trim. At least it has drive modes which I liked quite a bit because I found that The standard drive mode is a little touchy, you get too much eagerness from it there. It's almost like binary, there's no just like real gentle acceleration in normal mode. It's either sort of definitely accelerating or coasting and you get, you know, sort of head bobbing. That makes everybody carsick can happen there. So when you put in Eco mode, it backs off that response a bit. And it It feels nicer, a little smoother. And it's still not it's not like some eco modes to get terribly unresponsive. Yeah. It wasn't bad. Well,

Sam Abuelsamid  45:37  
you know, as far as efficiency goes, you know, while you're talking, I pulled up the fuel economy. gov, the, the rogue, the escape the standard, you know, the gas escape the 1.5 liter, and the, the gas rav4 are all rated at 30 miles per gallon combined. So they all have the almost the exact same fuel economy ratings. So there's no difference there. And then, you know, when you go to the hybrids, you know, now you're at 4041 miles per gallon with ravena. The Escape, they do a little better than the Honda hybrid does. And we'll see how the, I think the the Tucson Hyundai Tucson will probably do comparable to that, you know, probably get at least 40 given that, you know, what their hybrid system does in some of their other vehicles.

Dan Roth  46:28  
Yeah, I mean, I think this is, this is what people are buying. Mm hmm. Now, and it's, it's a great choice. It's just this

Sam Abuelsamid  46:37  
this is the mainstream family car now.

Dan Roth  46:38  
And there's, there's a lot of good here for that, you know, and I think so as SSV so it looks like the trims are SS v SL and platinum. Okay, I was thinking it

Sam Abuelsamid  46:49  
was slns Yeah, so yeah, so this is, this is the, the SV then is that's the volume trim, that's, that's the highest volume one, that's the one most people are gonna buy.

Dan Roth  46:59  
And it's, it's very well equipped for that trim that you know, a couple of things I missed seem like small, small potatoes really and you can get them you know, you can get you go up to the s SL and you know, you can get, you know, larger wheels, the power liftgate it has the, you know, the kick feature. This and leather as you as you climb the the model ladder. So, this one had as an SL I mean, as a stupid it's been had just about everything you'd want, you know, had the the propilot assisted had the intelligent, there they around the monitor stuff. And it starts at 27. I think the one that I drove was like, in the low 30s with a couple of options. So not a bad deal. Decent cargo room, pleasant to drive, had all wheel drive, which that bumps the price up front wheel drives is 27 whatever, buddy, go with the whole drive, it adds to the price. Yeah, bumps you up $1,000 and 28,000. So as a as the volume model, they've done a really good job of giving it what what people wanted. And the thing that you noted too, was the touchscreen is better. It's much better. Oh, yeah, it's not not that antique Nissan system that was friendly, but very limited. With a crappy screen, you got to hit like five times that their system is good. It does, you know, Android Auto and CarPlay. pretty decently. So can't can't complain about that. I think if you're if you're in the market, the rug, it's like it doesn't really live up to its name because it doesn't make any kind of mischief. Yes.

Sam Abuelsamid  48:45  
Like, it's not really a rogue But

Dan Roth  48:47  
no, it's it's definitely a conformist, but you know, it has some herb too, you know, it's got it, it's styled nicely, it's it, it's a little, it's a little more square, like once you get past the a pillar, it's kind of you know, it's chunky and square, but that pays off and interior volume and cargo space and just how usable it is. So

Sam Abuelsamid  49:06  
right now, that's, that's the other thing, you know, where's the contrast between what Ford did this this time around, versus what Toyota and Nissan Did you know, both both the rav4 and the rogue, you know, have that kind of squared off chunkier design to them. And Ford, you know, they bifurcated their compact crossover line, you know, what, softer, you know, more car like with the escape, and then you've got the the bronco sport, you know, which has that more rugged off road look to it. Because, you know, it's part of the bronco family. And that, you know, they tried to, rather than trying to make one vehicle to appeal across the board, they've come Neal, they've covered the bases with two different variants of the same thing.

Dan Roth  49:54  
Yeah, well, and you know, Ford, by doing that they've heard I'm sure. They're hoping Is that they are ensuring a higher transaction price?

Sam Abuelsamid  50:02  
Oh, yeah. And I suspect that the the transaction prices on the bronco support will be probably several thousand dollars higher than on a typical, you know, typical escape.

Dan Roth  50:14  
Yeah, well and I think it's not it's not cynical either it's just I guess it is a little cynical because it's business decision. Most business decisions are but the, you know people are gonna want it and they're gonna be willing to pay for it. You know, and I think that they they like that kind of chunky Bronco design and it doesn't like Rebecca was saying to you like, it's hard to tell exactly which one you're looking at for the sort of average consumer, right? Like people are just gonna see this squared thing that says Bronco across the front, and it's a bronco, not a bronco sport or the sort of full boat Bronco. It's just, they're all gonna be Broncos. Right? That's Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  50:58  
exactly. Exactly the point.

Dan Roth  51:01  
Yeah. So I jumped out of the rogue and I jumped into a Chevy Bolt. And this is my first experience with the bolt. It's a bolt premiere. This is a really, really good car. This is possibly the best GM car I've driven in a very long time. It's really well thought out really well screwed together. No, no complaints about range. Although I'd been charging 110 volt outlet so it took quite a while to put some some juice back in it. But yeah, man, this is uh, this. This is a good car. Why is Chevy not trying to sell as many of them as they possibly can?

Sam Abuelsamid  51:44  
I have no idea why they aren't marketing the hell out of this thing? Well, I actually I do, because I think you know, even if they really tried, I'm not sure how many they could, you know, this, it's a subcompact car. It's a small car. Small that doesn't,

Dan Roth  52:03  
it doesn't. So it doesn't feel that small.

Sam Abuelsamid  52:06  
No, it's actually surprisingly roomy. I mean, it's very well, very well packaged. But you know, it's, it's still a car, as opposed to a crossover. You know, when they first when they launched it. They tried to call this a crossover. And then there's, it's it's a tall hatchback. Yes. And it's I

Dan Roth  52:23  
think it's what they call it now as a tall wagon. Yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  52:24  
But it's, you know, it's a car. And there's nothing wrong with that. Except that nobody, no Americans want to buy them. No, they don't want to buy small cars. That's why they're building the bolt up, you know, which is a little bit taller, still a little bit longer. Yeah, but it's just the

Dan Roth  52:43  
if it's if it looks like a bolt, though, that's gonna be if they need this power train and an Equinox or even a traverse, like, I know, those are much larger, heavier vehicles. But that again, that's what people are buying, like, having a standalone model seems like almost an archaic convention that's gonna sort of go away to a certain degree. Like, why can't you just put the Evie stuff in the mainstream car?

Sam Abuelsamid  53:09  
Well, and that's, you know, that's what's coming there. There is a Chevy crossover, you know, in that kind of equinox, somewhere between Equinox and blazer size class. Oh, yeah. I forgot. So that's, you know, that's coming sometime in the next couple of years. You know, that. They, they showed us that back at the EV day back in March, which I think was about 16 years ago. But, you know, it's it's, uh, it's on its way. So you know, they're not, they're not going to put the Evie stuff into the existing conventional design vehicles. They're not, they're not going to do any more conversions. Everything is all the Evie is going forward are going to be purpose built, you know, as EBS, you know, and it'll, it may well be a replacement, may well end up being a replacement for either the equinox or the blazer, or it might be, you know, at least for a time overlapping with one or both of those cars.

Dan Roth  54:09  
Yeah, I, as soon as they said it, I realized, like, part of the reason why they make EA V's standalone is because people like having the image.

Sam Abuelsamid  54:19  
Yeah, thanks. Well, I think there's there's that you know, and, you know, taking an existing architecture, existing vehicle architecture and trying to figure out, okay, where am I gonna stuff this battery in here? It always ends up being compromised, you end up with something like what the, the, you know, as good as the volt was, in many respects, you know, it was a compromise because it was designed around an existing, you know, Chevy Cruze architecture, even though it had a different body on it. The Ford, Ford Focus, electric, same thing, you know, they took the focus and they tried to stuff lithium ion cells anywhere they could, and you ended up with a car with no color cargo space, you know, not much room inside, and not nearly enough range. So, rather than trying to compromise and stuff batteries into an existing conventional vehicle platform, they're just designing them around this, you know, flat battery pack from the ground up.

Dan Roth  55:20  
Yeah, well, whatever they did to design the bolt, it's a really fully realized electric car. And I love that it's, it's so well thought out. And so well done, it gives me hope that once they finally start offering it in segments that people buy, they hope they will sell them.

Sam Abuelsamid  55:41  
You know, there is one other flaw to the bolt, though.

Dan Roth  55:44  
Oh, okay, well, hang on, let me go through the high points. Alright. So for for 2020, they boosted the range. So it's up to 259 miles on a full charge. So that's, that's good. And they, I'm driving the premiere. So it has the leather, heated seats and the heated steering wheel and all kinds of stuff to actually reduce your range.

Sam Abuelsamid  56:08  
Well, actually, you know, when you're driving it in cold weather, that kind of stuff will improve your range, because that'll give you comfort, without having to use the heat the heating ventilation system as much, oh, that's true, because fat is much more efficient to heat your body directly, you know, heat the parts, your body is in direct contact, rather than trying to heat all of the air inside the cabin. So that's Joe, you can be comfortable, you can set you know, you can set your cabin temperature, you know, say 60 or 65 degrees, turn on the seat heaters and the steering wheel and still be comfortable, you know, when it's, you know, 15 or 20 degrees outside. And it's going to take a lot less energy from the battery to do that than it will to just if you set the temperature at 70 degrees.

Dan Roth  56:56  
Well, one of the things I wanted to try, which I couldn't figure out was how to maybe get it to condition the interior while it was still on on shore power. And I don't know whether that was because I need the app to do it because they have an app for the bolt that will allow keyless entry and starting and all that. That's

Sam Abuelsamid  57:14  
Yeah, I think I think you need to do that through the app. So you have to install the app on your phone and then pair it to the car.

Dan Roth  57:21  
So that's me being a lazy journalists, I'll play with that. While it's here for a few more days, I'll see what I get. Um, they've upgraded the cameras on it. So the surround vision and rear view cameras now are high def and they they work with the thing is so small and as such good visibility, you don't really need the campus. And it's it's torquey, you know that the performance is really good. I've actually gotten lots and lots of complaints out of the tire. When you when you go into a corner, any accelerate thing just gives it all it's like 270 pound feet, 266 pound feet of torque it so it doesn't really have any problem lighting up the tires. But sometimes when you don't don't intend to. And you guys actually helped me figure out the the one pedal driving some, I'm pleased that it can do one pedal because they they call it low mode. And so it's not obvious that you drive along low mode. And that's actually it just regions harder. But it also has a paddle on the left side of the left steering wheel spokes that will allow you to region on demand. So whatever you're doing, no matter what drive mode you're in, you can just hold that pedal down and it'll it'll regenerate over again all the way to a stop. So that's, that's nice. It extends your range that way. The I didn't like the infotainment it seemed a little difficult to figure out. So, you know, I got to play with that more. I think once you get used to it, it's alright. But it It took me a little bit of just staring at it going. Wait, what function is it that I want? How did I get to it? So that's a, you know, our consistent constant complaint. But yeah, I mean, it it. It actually charged up pretty pretty quickly. I had it down to about a year 75 miles left, and just left it plugged in overnight. And it it added another 50 miles 5060 miles to it. So yesterday when I jumped in, and actually no it added more than that. Because I had like 75 left, I jumped in yesterday afternoon and it had like 150 of range and then I left it plugged in overnight and it's it's almost full. So it's not terrible on 110 volt outlet that the plug gets a little warm. Yeah. But you can say the thing that I thought was cool is you can select whether it draws eight or 12 amps to off your circuit. So depending on on what else do Got You know, if you've got it in your garage on 110 outlet that also runs your, I don't know, your deep freeze or something you may not have enough, if that's a 15 amp breaker, you may not have enough to charge the car at 12 amps and handle the sort of the surge of the refrigerator compressor. So it's well thought out that way. And that's I think the overall feeling I get from the bolt is they they really built a solid Evie it's well built, nothing falls off in the rain, you know, it's, it works really well. It's it's, I mean,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:00:37  
the bumper, the rear bumper still on, they're

Dan Roth  1:00:38  
still on there, it's got good good space inside good foot room because the floor is flat, you know, so it has a lot of space, they're good cars, good cargo room in the in the back. So it's it's well packaged, like you said, and it is it's just a, it's a, it's a great car, I wish that they talked about it more, because I think that, you know, you're letting the boutique brands suck up all the air in the room. And you General Motors, Chevrolet make a really good Evie. And it's built to a high standard, and you should talk about it more, unless you don't want to sell any. And that may be the case. But I don't think this is a compliance car. I think this is a legitimate attempt at at really sorting out the issues behind transitioning from internal combustion, which they do really well to full Eevee which they, they it's not like they don't have experience at it. It's just trying to find the right blend of, of hardware and, you know, vehicle to put it in and all that stuff. So I like to the experience, I think in a different, different segment. It really has a lot of potential.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:01:48  
Yeah, no, I agree. You know, getting back to the one flaw knew I was

Dan Roth  1:01:52  
gonna say what's the one flog the price

Sam Abuelsamid  1:01:54  
tag.

Dan Roth  1:01:56  
It's not that ridiculous, like $37,000 37

Sam Abuelsamid  1:01:59  
five, you know, or the premier starts at, you know, 41, nine, so 40 to 40,000. Which, you know, most people, they're gonna look at this and say, okay, it's a really nice, compact hatchback. But 42 grand God. And, you know, the problem is, you know, GM has sold more than 200,000 plugins now. So they are no longer eligible for the federal tax credit. So, you know, what, that MSRP is? minus whatever, you know, deal, you can swing with the dealer. Well, you know, now that stick that MSRP that's the price, you know, unless you can negotiate down with with your local dealer. And, you know, in some cases, some states, you know, still have some incentives on there. But, you know, it's, it's pretty expensive for what it is.

Dan Roth  1:02:50  
Well, yes, and no, um, I think if you're, if you're looking at this, I think that dealers are probably going to offer you an attractive lease. So that may take some of the sting out of it. And also, like, if you're buying an Eevee one of the things you're going to benefit from is it's a little more expensive. Great, they offer ridiculous loans right now. Yeah. So you could take advantage of that you can also take advantage of the fact that there's there's not an engine in there, there's not a transmission so much. So it probably in terms of maintenance, there's there's less to break would be my assumption, you know, you're still gonna have to fix the things like you know, shock struts, ball joints, brakes, all the stuff that wears but you're gonna get out of having to do you know, the timing belt service, and you know, a water pump and Gosh, the intake gasket leaks and stuff like I'm trying to think of all the things that you know, maintenance wise, you still have to attend to no matter you know, how good the engine is in any car that it gets used, you know, that stuff runs and so it needs to be maintained. You don't really have that with the with an Eevee it's just the motor just goes and you know, I think the only real thing I've ever heard of it's kind of Evie specific is like you know, sometimes the batteries like the the bus bars and stuff corrode and you need to clean that up and I

Sam Abuelsamid  1:04:21  
get it, you know, the batteries got, you know, an eight year hundred thousand mile warranty on it. So I wouldn't worry too much about the battery. You know, but you know, for comparison, you know, this thing is comparable in size to Chevy Sonic, right? You can still like even the size of the model three is significantly larger. So this is like like 90 cubic feet and interior volume and the, the model three is like 113, something like that. So, that's, that's including the cargo space, though. I think that if you're looking at passenger volume, I think they're actually surprisingly similar,

Dan Roth  1:05:01  
because that's what I was trying to do, because this

Sam Abuelsamid  1:05:03  
is a lot taller than a model three.

Dan Roth  1:05:05  
Right? And and so, okay. So the total interior volume of a model three is 112. So then you take 15 cubic feet off of that yet. So that's, that's like actually less.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:05:20  
Yeah, so this, yeah, it's 94 cubic feet for passenger volume 17 for cargo volume. So that's more Yeah, model that's 100 111 cubic feet total.

Dan Roth  1:05:35  
Okay, so that's actually one less than a model. Yeah, model three is 15 cubic feet of cargo volume. So you take that away, and you're

Sam Abuelsamid  1:05:42  
Plus, you know, in this as a hatchback, you can fold down those receipts, and you can open that up, and you're now you're close to 50 cubic feet of cargo space, if you need it.

Dan Roth  1:05:50  
So it's perception gap.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:05:52  
Yes, it's all about perception. But you know, getting back to the the price, you know, for comparison, you know, a Chevy Sonic starts at $17,600. So it's $20,000, cheaper.

Dan Roth  1:06:06  
But what does the model three start at? Well, the model three

Sam Abuelsamid  1:06:11  
nominally starts somewhere around $37,000

Dan Roth  1:06:14  
right now, and they don't make one

Sam Abuelsamid  1:06:16  
like, yeah, it's really hard to find one at that price point. I mean, most, most of them are somewhere in the $40,000 price range. But, you know, if you're comparing, you know, a similar type of car, you know, I mean, people are more likely to cross shop this against a sonic or a Nissan Versa, or, you know, or a Honda Fit than they are against a model three.

Dan Roth  1:06:40  
Well, if you're doing that, then clearly the bolt is gonna lose. It's just Yes,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:06:46  
well, that's, that's my point. You know, in the class of car this is in, it's very expensive, compared to, you know, a, a model three that has similar interior volume, model threes, obviously quicker, but it's got, you know, comparable range, you know, base model threes, about 260 miles of range, this is a 259 miles of range. And actually, you can, if you use the low mode all the time, and you're mostly driving around town, you can actually get well over 300 miles easily, even before they did the mid cycle update. Last year, the original version of it, I was able to get almost 300 miles out of a charge on that thing. Driving in low mode. So, you know, it's it, you know, in terms of range, and, you know, it's actual functionality. It's more it is very comparable to a model three, but almost nobody's gonna cross shop this against the model three,

Dan Roth  1:07:46  
but see, I think so. I don't disagree. I think they should because and I think this is maybe what what GM is doing, where they're saying, Well, no, this isn't this isn't a B segment or C segment car. This is a Evie. And so no matter what segment its form factor says it is its powertrain dictates that it's an Eevee so they're saying you know, in terms of E V's it's comparable to this this model that that you know, has the sort of the the site Geist of the Eevee market you know that the model three when you think Evie, you think Tesla they've been very successful with that. And I I don't know how to close that

Sam Abuelsamid  1:08:30  
whole year the advertising guy.

Dan Roth  1:08:32  
Yeah, well, I mean, they should pay me for it and I'll think about it. But I think that's what's going on is is yes, it presents as a small hatchback. GM would do better getting you to think about it as a model three competitor and and that's where really where it shines. It's, it's built really well. The dealers are everywhere. The You know, you're not limited to a single charging network of really good charging network. But, you know, a single charging network, you know, this thing can charge on anything. And I think it does DC fast charging too.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:09:15  
It does, but only at 50 kilowatts.

Dan Roth  1:09:18  
Yeah. So you've got about a half hour to put about half the range bekins or something like that. Yeah, so that's not terrible though. But it's because it's that that small hatchback, it's, it's much more useful than a car with a trunk. That's, it's kind of tight. You know, model three is like, three series size even the Model S is not that big on the inside. So this is a much more useful day to day Evie, but it's not as cool.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:09:44  
Yeah, well, and that's that's the problem is you need that cool factor right now. Which is why, you know, they're building the Hummer.

Dan Roth  1:09:52  
Which is fine, like great. Um, you know, I don't I don't have a problem with that, like people are gonna buy big trucks like that anyway, regardless, so Yeah, make one and TV. Can Can. And it's a cool looking thing. So I wish that they could sort of work on that sort of perception because this is a really good car. And I want more cars like this. And I think that this is an Eevee that I would, I would part with the $37,000 for because it's, it's, it's good, it's just well thought out, it's well built, it's really more car than I need. And so that's, you know, generally all all good things. And I would feel really confident buying one versus the things that float out there anecdotally about the ownership experience of some other Evie brands that are more boutique, and I'm not just picking on Tesla, but you know, other other brands too, like you start to get into boutique automakers you get boutique automaker problems. So back with the volume automaker, they have all that good, that stuff is figured out. And that means a lot to me, you know, I would consider leasing it, you know, and I think that's really where it's gonna shine for its first few years, and that's probably where it has shined is being leased for. expand out since What 2017?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:11:18  
Yeah, came out as a 17 model in 16. Yeah, and, you know, for, for what it's worth, you know, you can get just looked up on kbb.com they list the fair market value for a used 2018. Bolt as 21,000 to $24,000 for the bolt premier. That's a really good deal. Yeah, you know, so, you know, if you can't, if you want a really good Eevee but you can't manage, you know, $40,000 for one, think about, you know, consider a two year old two or three year old one, you've got, you know, only slightly less range was still 240 miles of range, you know, for Camp 2322 $23,000 you know, that is probably going to be relatively low mileage, you know, that's going to be, you know, probably about Okay, so this is, here's one yeah, they've got one that they listed 20,005 9559 with 32,000 miles on it, you know, that's that's Loma I mean, that's practically new. Yeah. So, you know, you if you if you want one of these, you know, you really should consider one even even a used one because they're, they're not that old. And it's it's a fantastic car.

Dan Roth  1:12:37  
Yeah, well, and what's it Jalopnik that went through and said they had a piece of while ago a few weeks ago that basically said like, Chevy dealers are offering ridiculous deals on new bolts. Yeah, you can get a new bolt down to like 20 with with all the incentives and stuff are in the 20s.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:12:54  
So shop around don't don't pay don't pay sticker price.

Dan Roth  1:13:01  
We just we just see we just made the case for it. Yeah, don't don't buy the fancy thing. buy the book. Look at cuz, you know, get other fancy stuff. And you're like, leaves more room. You can bet the bolt

Sam Abuelsamid  1:13:11  
is big enough to carry the fancy stuff in the back.

Dan Roth  1:13:14  
Right, exactly. I love that actually, that it's a hatch because you know, small sedans, small sedans suck. I spent too many years with small sedans and small children. And the problem with small sedans and small children is that the equipment for said small children is large. Yes. And it does not fit in the trunk of the small sedan. Yeah, so it says it's a great Eevee so I you know, good for GM for making it. Please try to sell more of them. I'd love to see a blazer with this powertrain. I think that'd be great. You kill it. Well,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:13:47  
it's actually going to be the next generation powertrain and batteries, so it'll be even better.

Dan Roth  1:13:52  
Yeah, so yeah, ringing endorsement for the both at least from from my side. And I don't even have a charger. I'm like, I'm like, Rebecca, where it's like, I'm a loser running a power cord across the backyard in the rain. Okay, whatever. It's grounded. It's fine. The dog let me know if it's plugged

Sam Abuelsamid  1:14:09  
into a GFCI outlet. So you're good. Yeah, actually, it's not. Nevermind. My house. Yeah, no, we've got going knob and doing and stuff in this acid. I got gfcis here. So

Dan Roth  1:14:22  
we have some, but not all of whatever. Houses give me like Star grounded and you speak? Yeah, yeah. Anyway. So that's it. That's my girl. All right. Thanks, Dan.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:14:33  
And now we're gonna head back to Rebecca and Rebecca again, discuss a couple of news items. Over the past week and a half, you and I have both driven a new product that is going to be hitting dealerships in the next couple of weeks. The first ones are hitting the ports now and they should be arriving at some dealerships. In the next two to three weeks. That's the the Genesis gvhd you drove it last week in In New York air in the New York area, and I drove one this week here in the Detroit area.

Rebecca Lindland  1:15:05  
I'd love to get your thoughts on it.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:15:07  
Yeah. Well, tell us what you thought first. I mean, okay, well, the two of us. I think you actually saw it in person before I did last year. Yeah, I did for a few weeks ahead of the LA Auto Show last November, the two of us sat in the gvhd on the floor at the LA Auto Show, I remember, one of the things that we commented on was, you know, a lot of the finishing and the interior, the the knurling, on the controls on the, on the shift, the shift are on the media controller, and on the knobs and everything else, you know, had a really interesting texture to it, you know, it wasn't like a traditional knurling, where you have that kind of diamond pattern, it was a different kind of texture to it. And then you know, the materials, you know, the, the open pour woods, and the leather and everything, you know, really felt high end really felt premium, and looked it to, you know, so it looked and felt the part. And so, you know, I got a chance to drive a couple of them this week, both, both of them with the V six engine. So they say you didn't try the four cylinder, I didn't, I didn't get a chance to jump in one of the four. Okay. But you know, so they offer it with a 2.5 liter turbo four cylinder, which has about 300 horsepower, and then the twin turbo V six, which is closer to 400 horsepower, what 3.5 liter? Yeah, it's a 3.5 liter. And, you know, of course, you know, being part of the Hyundai Motor Group, you know, these these engines are, you know, share their architecture with other engines within the Hyundai kiya Genesis family. So, you know, both these, you know, are part of the smartstream family that have dual port and direct injection for better drivability and emissions and everything. So, this version, the 2.5, in here is a little bit higher output than what you'll find in 100 100 days, I think they're about 272 75 horsepower from there to five turbos. This is a little over 300 in the four cylinder and more in the V six, and it has a lot of really nice, nice features in here. I mean, the whole thing felt really well executed, the shape of the thing is great, you know, and it's, it's unfortunate that this car wasn't available when the Genesis brand launched as a standalone brand A few years ago, because I think we really, I think we've we've been fans of genesis for a long time, you know, especially the GA, D and the G 70. And, and to, in a different way, the G 90, but, you know, sedans have been on the decline. And, you know, not having a crossover in the lineup, I think, is really hurt Genesis, trying to establish itself as a standalone brand apart from Hyundai. And, you know, I think they did an amazing job on this thing. And what's what's interesting about this, you know, this, this overall size, you know, is comparable to, you know, Lincoln aviator and BMW X five and feel what the other ones say they talked about, you know, the Audi Q seven. And, but most versions of the gV 80 are two row only, you can get it with a third row with an optional third row and one of the high end trims. But for the most part, it's really meant as a two row, which, you know, means that it's got, she got lots of room in there. So there, it's it's very spacious inside. And this, this is a new rear wheel drive, longitudinal engine architecture that they share with the new GT, which I'll be driving in a couple of weeks. And it's exclusive to the Genesis brand. So this is not being shared with Hyundai and Kia,

Rebecca Lindland  1:18:50  
at all. Really smart to do.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:18:53  
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, they're obviously sharing power trains and a lot of other hardware, but but the platform itself is unique. And so really, you can think of this as kind of a gap wagon that sits up a little bit higher, you know, then than a gap sedan would. And I think it works really well the driving dynamics were outstanding, you know, good steering feel, great ride quality, great performance. And the, from a functional standpoint, you know, one thing that did annoy me a bit was that center controller, the way they executed that, because unlike most center controllers, which I generally like, you know, for the media, the media controller, this one, instead of sitting up and above, you know, being like a knob is more like if you think back to the old school, original Apple iPods, you know, it's, it's, it's flush mounted, and you know, you put your finger on the, the knurled perimeter of it, to turn it on. And then you can also toggle it, you know, to up down left, right, you know, to select stuff or to move up and down in the interface. And that's a non touchscreen interface. So the the, the 14 inch display sits up on the dash up, away from your reach. So you only interface with it either by voice or

Rebecca Lindland  1:20:22  
you like that.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:20:25  
I don't think this controller was executed as well as it should be. Yeah. Because and let me explain what and what I told to the guys at Genesis. You know, I think while that that neural link that I described earlier, looks really good, and generally feels really good. I think that I don't get enough traction on it with my finger when I'm rotating it. And because it also acts as a toggle, to go left right up down in the interface. I ended up finding myself having to press down a little bit harder on it, there's enough resistance in it to rotation, that I had to press down enough that oftentimes, a number of times, I found myself actually toggling it at the same time I was trying to rotate it. And I think that, you know, that diamond pattern knurling I think where you get a little more traction with your finger would actually have been more effective there. So, you know, aside from that, you know, the rest of it was fine. And you know, I think it's just a matter of getting used to it and finding the right balance of pressure on there. So you get the traction with your finger. So it rotates, you know, without toggling it.

Rebecca Lindland  1:21:40  
Yeah, I think that I had I had some of the same issues with it. It's concave in design. But it was the center

Sam Abuelsamid  1:21:47  
in the center part is it's kind of

Rebecca Lindland  1:21:49  
fun. But it was not intuitive enough. And actually, a lot of the feedback that I provided and others in my group provided I was that the infotainment system really was super confusing. It was not intuitive, the voice control was good. But trying to use that, that the controller was really tough. I didn't like the fact that there the gear selector was a rotary knob as well. So you had

Sam Abuelsamid  1:22:21  
not one is one that actually sticks up,

Rebecca Lindland  1:22:23  
right. So the rotary knob that the the, the gear selector sticks up, and then the and then this multimedia controller is in front of it. So you kind of read rest your palm on the gear selector. And then touching the, the controller, I found myself often reaching for the gear selector by mistake, because they're their sidebar, they're right next to each other, I mean, they're in parallel to each other. And so I found the positioning to not be as easy to get to know. And keep in mind too, that you know, we're we're handed these cars I was handed this car in down in lower Manhattan, and then told here, go to this location. So we're sort of learning all this on the fly. Ideally, you know, as if you purchase this, you sit down and spend some time with it. But you do want that initial interaction to be intuitive. And as listeners know, if you need technology broken, I am your girl. I will do that for you. And so it was comforting and validating, to hear other people have similar issues with the multimedia. That being said, I did get a chance to drive that four cylinder. That's actually what I drove first. I drove it up about about 85 miles outside of the city. And it was really, really good. They actually, I didn't really understand this route plan because they had us in terrible traffic, which there still is terrible traffic in the New York area going through. And then we went through the Holland Tunnel over to New Jersey, and it was just Oh, it was a mess. It was a mess. And but the acceleration was there when I needed it. And this is this is a 2.5 liter four cylinder 300 horsepower. And that thing was more than happy to take me where I needed to go. I mean, it was really, really good. I drove the 3.5 liter B six back is that has 375 horsepower. It's a nice to have bite. I know necessary. It's not necessary. I mean, sure. It's fun. It's great. But man, that four cylinder. They did some really good tuning on that I thought that was really really good. I love the way this thing looks. It's just gorgeous. And I will say that as I was weaving my way through Manhattan at every track Like people were stopping to look at it in Manhattan.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:25:04  
Yeah, what Joe, it definitely stands out, you know, it's not a copycat of all the other, you know,

Rebecca Lindland  1:25:11  
it's very elegant, it's beautiful to look at. And so, you know, obviously, we've all driven cars that people turn around and look at, but sometimes it's not very good. It's not for the right reason. This, I think, is just, the proportions of it are beautiful. The interior, as you mentioned, the interior materials are just gorgeous on it. The only thing and Buble commented on this one I posted on my Instagram, this steering wheel is very old school, it's got this big, fat middle, and the and the spokes on it are really large, like, like,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:25:50  
to smoke will,

Rebecca Lindland  1:25:52  
it's a to smoke weed. Some people were commenting, you know, about a bad at steering wheel. And I could kind of see that. So I think,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:26:00  
you know, that's on the flip side, though, you know, it also has, you know, a nice, thick rim. And so I found that, you know, holding it, even though you've got these two fairly wide spokes, you know, my fingers wrapped around it, it was kind of, they were kind of cut out a little bit in the back. You may, even if you're holding it at nine and three, where the spokes are, it's still very comfortable to hold, it actually feels really good in your hand. It looks a little unusual. But it but it definitely feels good in your hand.

Rebecca Lindland  1:26:30  
It does. I didn't notice that. It was different, though. But But no, you're right. It does. It feels really good. And, and again, it's just, it's beautiful. There's an there's an incredible amount of refinement in it really, really quiet. It did. It's funny because I had I, I drove the Q seven down to the city to go and drive this thing then. So I went from, you know, what would potentially be a competitor that Houston's a bigger, but you know, it's driving that and kind of missing that really emotional connection. And then getting into this, getting into the GB ad. It just was lovely. It was a really, really, really good experience. I really liked it, I was really happy with it. And I think that, you know, if you're in this market for ideally that five seater, I think this is great the end keep in mind to on a global basis. You know, if you think about the usage that this would get in Korea, and other Asian markets, it's really your vehicle that you're going to, you're going to tout executives around in and so they're going to be in that second row, and that second row has so much room, so it makes sense. I understand why they want to offer at least offer a seven seat. But I would say that you'd almost be better off spending money on like the Kia telluride or the Hyundai palisade. If you need a seven row SUV, I think that this Genesis GB ad really shines with that five seat configuration and with a lot of flexibility in terms of cargo and passenger rail.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:28:11  
On the topic of interface, did you get a chance to try one of the I think it's the top end trim level with the 3d instrument cluster? Yes. What did you think of it?

Rebecca Lindland  1:28:25  
So I thought it was pretty cool. I'm just going to Emory running through my pictures real quick to just and I thought it was pretty cool. Why did you have issues with it?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:28:33  
No, no, I was curious, you know, your your impression of it, you know, so what this is, it's a full digital cluster. So there's no, no mechanical gauges there. The standard cluster has regular analog gauge on the left, and then an eight inch digital display on the right. This this optional one is all digital. But it's it's a sort of a multi plane display. And there's actually an IR sensor, similar to what's used for, you know, the driver monitor systems on some, some of the, like, gm supercruise, and so on, that is looking at your face to look where your eyes are and where you're looking. And if you shift around what it actually does, it's using the the parallax of where your eyes are where they're looking to adjust the planes of this. So it it actually looks three dimensional. So it looks like it's got some depth to it. You know, it's, uh, you know, I'm not sure how useful it actually is. It's kind of neat to look at, and the interface is very attractive, you know, it's a really nice design. You know, most of the time, you know, you're, you're hopefully going to be sitting relatively stationary right in front of it, looking at it. So you're not hopefully shifting back and forth too much while you're driving. But You know, even then, you know, you can, it does appear to have some depth to it, which it just, it's cut, it's one of those things that kind of maybe makes you feel a little happy. You know, it's less, it's because it feels more physical, you know, it's not, it's not that more, say more sterile flat, that flat surface,

Rebecca Lindland  1:30:23  
it's, it's much more interactive. Yeah. So So what's interesting about that eye tracking movement, there's actually a company that I've I know of, here in the New York area that has installed that on retro retro installed it on vehicles. What's really interesting about that is there it's it's ideal for things like drowsy driving, and getting more accurate read on how people are driving, where they're whether they are distracted, following their eye movements, this system that this that these people have developed, it actually can even monitor your temperature, and it can indicate whether you have COVID, or not, which is crazy, a little big brother ish. But at the same time, you know, an interesting idea. I

Sam Abuelsamid  1:31:22  
say, if you're using IR cameras, IR sensors for that, you'll be able to tell the temperature gradient of your frame rate

Rebecca Lindland  1:31:27  
and blood pressure. And, you know, of course, if God forbid, something happens to you, while you're driving, like a stroke, or heart attack or something. So there's all sorts of uses for this technology that I think is really, really interesting. And, and I thought, you know, you're right. I mean, it's, it's, again, it's that connection, right? It's that it's that feeling of that the vehicle is a partner to you and interacting with you and, and there and the infotainment system and multimedia, is there to make your driving experience better? And I think a lot of times, that's not always the case. But this, I think, is it does help you It gives good feedback it gives it was, you know, there was there was aspects of it, that I think once they smooth out the interface, I think it'll be really, really good. It just that that the controller, I think was an obstacle to what is otherwise a pretty good system. Overall, I think to there were some things that were buried a little bit that I wanted a little bit more clear. And but you know, overall, I think it was it was good. It's just I there, there's opportunities for improvement there.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:32:40  
Yeah, I think it's, you know, I think it's a it's an excellent vehicle. And I said, I'll have the GA in a couple of weeks, which has basically the same type of interiors got the same sort of interface. And so I'll have

Rebecca Lindland  1:32:52  
the controllers different though, is it?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:32:56  
I think it's the same. Okay. We'll see if that the texturing might be different. But I mean, it's the same same basic design, once I've had time to spend more, more time with it, spend a few days with it, we'll see if that if that feel of it improves a little bit.

Rebecca Lindland  1:33:12  
it what what my issue really was what I kept wanting to push when I wasn't supposed to. Yeah, that makes sense. Like, I know exactly what you mean. Like I would I wanted I that's what I that's what I really took away from it was I needed to the times when I wanted to just say okay, yes, this is what I want and kind of press enter, if you will, I didn't do it. So then I was like, okay, where am I supposed to press then? And so, again, it was it was really focused around, I think the controller, and then I do think some of the menus were confusing and where things, how you accessed items within the menu, the look itself, it has this tablet, the sideways tablet look, and it is kind of, um, it's not integrated into the dash and is kind of set above the dash but not in a didn't it didn't compromise visibility or anything like that. But

Sam Abuelsamid  1:34:09  
it's not terribly tall. You know, it's it's very much a very widescreen display.

Rebecca Lindland  1:34:14  
Right, exactly. So, you know, again, I it's certainly not a reason not to purchase, but I do hope that they take some feedback, and maybe simplify some of the interactions with the multimedia. But otherwise, it was it's just I think it's just a stunningly beautiful vehicle.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:34:31  
One other thing I want to touch on on on this vehicle was some of the improvements they made in the Driver Assist systems. So this has a second generation of Hyundai's highway driving assist, which is not quite a level two system sort of a semi you know, maybe level 1.5 system. So you know, it does it tries to do lane centering, but one of the big things they changed this year is or that they enhanced this year is they added Two front corner radar sensors. So we've had the rear corner radar sensors for the blind spot monitoring, they added two more on the front corners. And that enables a bunch of different things. One of the big things is detecting cut ins. So if you're using adaptive cruise control, you're driving down the highway, somebody starts to pull over into your lane, those corner short range corner radars can pick up somebody pulling over and you know, it'll, it'll back off, and, you know, make sure that there's enough room there interacts more

Rebecca Lindland  1:35:29  
like you like, like a peripheral vision.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:35:31  
Yes, exactly. And another thing that it does is, you know, as you're driving down the highway, if you're passing a wide vehicle, like a semi, you know, normally it will try and stay pretty much in the center of the lane. But you know, when you're passing a wide vehicle or something, you know, vehicle is too close over to your lane, then it will kind of edge over and your lane, you know, stay still staying in the lane, but it'll edge over to give a little more room, so you're not running too close to that vehicle that's beside you. And then resume again, you know, also, you know, using the map information as an input, so when, when there's curves in the road, you know, if it, if it determines that your speed is maybe a little bit too high for that curve, you know, it'll automatically back off a little bit and then resume as you exit the curve, you know, sorts of things. Mercedes has been doing that for a while GM does that in supercruise, there's others that are doing that. So that's those, those are all really good features. And then other things that they're doing with those corner radars is the enhancing the Forward Collision assist. So, if you're making a left turn, and there's a car coming toward and coming towards you in the opposite direction, you know, it can use that to enhance the automatic emergency braking, you know, if there's a potential for a collision, you know, when you're crossing a junction, or, you know, if, if you're driving, you know, driving down a two lane road and somebody, you know, coming in the opposite direction, and you're a little bit too close to that center line, you know, it'll automatically kind of edge you back over in the other direction. So a lot of really nice, you know, added capabilities that are very, very subtle, you know, they're not going to jump out at you, but they're, they're there to help to be helpful. And I think those are, those are really good things, you know, by having those extra sensors in there. They

Rebecca Lindland  1:37:24  
are for sure. And, you know, there's also a couple things that they pointed out besides the 3d cluster, which is actually a world's first and the smart cruise control machine learning, which is really cool. So it learns how you drive. And we ask them, How long does that take, and it actually is very quick, like it will, it will start to learn like, one of the things that I find with cruise control is adaptive cruise control, and specifically is that the there's the drivers that are in the New York area, and this probably is everywhere, but if they're very aggressive, and they do kind of, you know, they dirt they Dart in and cut you off. And and I rarely get the opportunity to use cruise control in any kind of traffic situation because the car doesn't respond to the environment. And with this smart cruise with machine learning, it will it will start to adapt. So they say the other thing too that this has is road Active Noise Canceling. Oh, yeah, the world's for first.

Dan Roth  1:38:22  
Oh my

Rebecca Lindland  1:38:24  
gosh, this is one of the reasons why it was so quiet without being an without having that feeling of you're in a bubble like a puffy bubble, if you could still hear obviously, but it was it was a really, really nice quiet ride.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:38:41  
Yeah, yeah. So the way the way this works, you know, I mean, when you've driven if you've driven down a rough rough, you know, paved road where the pavements kind of broken, you know, you'll, you'll hear inputs from the road coming up, you know, through the tires, through suspension into the cabin. And what this is doing, you know, traditional adaptive noise control, or Active Noise control is just using microphones in the cabin to measure some of the ambient sound, especially from the engine. So looking for those boomy, unpleasant frequencies that that people don't like to hear. And then it's using the audio system to generate opposing sound waves that cancel up those, those unpleasant frequencies. What this new system is doing is it actually in addition to the microphones, it's adding the added accelerometers on the four corners on the suspension to measure the inputs from the road. So that you know, when you hit a frosty or something else, sharp inputs, that causes the wheel to move in a certain way that are would characteristically you know, create certain kinds of sounds in the cabin. They use that information feed that in and also generate opposing sound waves to cancel out those sound waves. So it's, you know, it's not making a completely silent environment, but it's creating a very comfortable risk. refined, serene environment. So it's very, very quiet and relaxed in there. But you can still, you know, if there's an ambulance coming upon your, your mergency vehicle, you're going to hear that you're going to hear somebody's horn honking things like that. But the things that you don't want to hear just kind of magically fade away into the background. It's, it's, it's really impressive. It worked really, really well.

Rebecca Lindland  1:40:22  
I always like bringing up something and then letting you explain it.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:40:26  
Well, it's funny, you know, I was after I drove it, you know, I was talking to the Genesis guys. And I said, first thing I told them was, you know, this is the vehicle that the folks at Cadillac should be benchmarked. Immediately, they should get their hands on one of these and benchmark it for NVH. Now your race, it's so good in so many ways. Yeah. And in, especially in ways that we've complained about for Cadillac, you know, the NVH being one of their

Rebecca Lindland  1:40:51  
Yeah, you're absolutely right, you're 100%. Right, Sam, because it is something that we bring up a lot, because luxury, quietness is part of the luxury experience. You know, even if you think about it, like even with consumer goods, or buying a house, one of the things that you pay extra for is quietness. That's why that's why you know, houses near near a highway, or near the airport, don't have as much value, because it's, it's noisy. And so when you get into a vehicle that you've spent a good amount of money on, you want that quiet experience. And speaking of money, I thought the price points on this, were really, really good as well. So the one that I, I drove both of them, and the 2.5 liter, all wheel drive starts at 48.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:41:46  
Which is crazy. That's the rear drive,

Rebecca Lindland  1:41:48  
it's rear wheel drive. And the one that I drove was an all wheel drive, fully loaded. For 63. Eight destinations. $1,000 and $21,025. So 64, eight for a vehicle that is absolutely jam packed. I mean, that is just those kinds of numbers are really, really stunning, I think.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:42:12  
Yeah. And even you know, the fully loaded, you know that the 3.5 only comes with all wheel drive. So there's no rear wheel drive v six. The Prestige 3.5 t all wheel drive prestige. Yeah. Is $71,000 before the delivery charge, you just see that one? Yeah, it's, you know, it's a great value. I mean, if you want that, that cool 3d cluster, you have to go for that one.

Rebecca Lindland  1:42:36  
Okay, you're right, because that's what I was on the way back. Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:42:39  
yeah. But, you know, even the, you know, the advanced, you know, and if you want the if you want the third row seat, you have to get the advanced plus, which is 65. But the advanced at 64 350, you know, has most of what you want in there, including that lexicon premium audio system. I mean, that is just a heads up display.

Rebecca Lindland  1:42:57  
Yeah. And you're you're absolutely right, yeah, this this segment is really crowded with competitors. There's a lot to choose from here. And I just think that, you know, while Genesis is late to the party, they do have a really, really nice dress on.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:43:14  
Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of being late to the party, the GMC Hummer EV was revealed in full this past week to the world. The two of us saw it back in March at one of the last events, we went to the GM Evie day. We saw it there. But it was shown to the world during the World Series game on Tuesday night, I think. And then Wednesday morning, you know, they did some media briefings where we got a little more detail on a bunch of stuff. At launch. They're launching with just one version, the edition one, which has all the goodies in there. And for the first year, that's the only one that's going to be available. What they're not saying is how many of them are going to be available, although they are sold out. So the additional one, which is the first year model, is they've got reservations for all of those now. So if you want one, now you're gonna have to wait till 2022 this is coming up about a year from now a little less than a year from now. The addition 1000 horsepower, three motors, zero to 60 in three seconds. $112,000. Well, you forgot the crab walk. Oh, and crab walk? Yes. So, you know, it's interesting, you know, I was talking to Peter Valdes de Pena, from CNN, later that day, on Wednesday after the briefing, and, you know, a lot of a lot of the features that are in here, you know, things like, you know, the air spring suspension and the crab walk, you know, are actually technologies that have been around for a while. They're not necessarily new technologies, but they're using them in new ways. Like the crab walk, you know, GM offered wheel steering or quadras, to your system on their full size pickups in the early 2000s, that from 2003 to 2005. And they just continued it because nobody bought it. But it was actually a really cool idea. Because, you know, when you got a big full size pickup truck, those things are a pain in the ass to maneuver.

Rebecca Lindland  1:45:18  
And I would think that there's got to be military vehicles that do this as well. Right? Well,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:45:21  
yeah. And I mean, there's, there's all there's

Rebecca Lindland  1:45:23  
new technology. Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:45:24  
there's been the the first all wheel drive systems came out in the early 90s are all wheel steering systems. I mean, you know, Honda had one on the prelude and mechanical system on the prelude. Oh, that's starting around 90 or 91. You know, and there were various vehicles that have had it over time, including the Cadillac CT six, offered an all wheel drive all wheel steering system, you know, and typically, the way these work is at low speeds, they do countersteering. So the the front and rear wheel steer in opposite directions. So that gives you better maneuverability, really tight turning circle on it, I guess, in the case of the the Hummer, it's going to have like a 37 foot turning circle, which for a big, big truck, like this vehicle is very impressive. And then what they do generally, is at higher speeds, highway speeds is the wheel steer in phase, they steer in the same direction, so that when you're changing lanes, you know, it gives you extra stability. So you can change lanes without without the vehicle, you know, the vehicle can move over, you know, kind of doing that crabbing at high speeds, what they're doing on the Hummer is they're adding this extra mode, the crab walk mode, to do that in phase during, at low speeds. So when you're going through a tight trail, you know, you can enable crab walk and turn all the wheels in one direction, and kind of move diagonally, you know, to get around the boulder or something like that. And, you know, that's a cool feature. Nothing, nothing wrong with that, I think, you know, for, you know, for vehicles design for off road driving, I think that's that's a great extra mode. And considering stuff is all electronically controlled. It's all just just adding a few extra lines of software for this mode. So it's not a big deal. Yeah, and the air spring suspension can raise and lower it by six inches. But overall, what do you think of this vehicle?

Rebecca Lindland  1:47:17  
I think this thing's a riot. And the reason that I think it's a riot is because the buyer that has $112,000 to spend on a car like this wants all these toys, you have to go back to who this is by who this is for, it is not for the every man, as Dan would say. This is for innovators and early adopters, there's only a one or two vendors. That will that's the beginning of the technology adoption curve. It doesn't actually start with with early adopters, it starts with innovators. So that's like that's like the 1%. And then as you start to move into adopt early adopters, then they get into like the two to 3% part of and so you so when you look at the technology, adoption curves, this is for those very, very early adopters very early. And so they want all this stuff they want the more bells and whistles and crazy things that this thing does, the more they will like it and and that's why they plunk down $112,000 to be the first. So it has to be different. This isn't if you want a typical electric vehicle, there's other options. This is not it. So I think it's a riot. I mean, my friends, me Hall, she just competed in this rebel rally. I and they had the first the rivian and they competed with the truck, electric truck. I you know, in the electrified class of the rebel and I look at this thing, and I think I want to drive that in the next year. But I think that, you know, in order, this is the right type of if you're going to put out a Hummer, EV this is this is what you put out

Sam Abuelsamid  1:49:14  
to me, you know, I look at this thing. And the more I think about it, this is for those guys that you know, are feeling insecure about themselves. It is it is that's what I mean. That's what Hummers have always been. Yeah, but

Rebecca Lindland  1:49:28  
more than that.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:49:30  
No, I mean, how is it more than that? Because

Rebecca Lindland  1:49:33  
it's an electric vehicle. So what what does that have to do with being insecure? I mean, you you would know more about being male insecure than I would

Sam Abuelsamid  1:49:43  
know. I mean, this is big brawny thing, you know, massive beast, it goes zero to 60 in three seconds. Who the hell needs a truck that goes zero to 60 in three seconds?

Rebecca Lindland  1:49:53  
Come on. Well, I think can Why not? I can't wait. I'm advocating for males but look

Sam Abuelsamid  1:49:58  
You know, I wrote a blog post recently about this, you know about Evie makers, you know, that keep trying to one up each other on, you know, acceleration and performance. Yeah. And okay, we have, you've proven conclusively that IE V's are as fast as anything out there. Now stop. Okay, you've made your point. Just stop. You know, this is ridiculous. We don't need people driving a vehicle this large, you know, it's bad enough that we have so many people driving vehicles this large that you can't see out of, and then you pile all this performance on top of that, you know, I think I think it's just ridiculous and, you know, socially irresponsible, okay, you know, fine.

Rebecca Lindland  1:50:46  
Vehicle wise, isn't that isn't that the whole idea is that you want it's clean emissions. Right? It's, but that's

Sam Abuelsamid  1:50:54  
the only thing that's that's reasonable about this is that it's electric. You know, I mean, if you're, if you're going off roading, you know, this thing is going to wait three times, at least, this is going to be at least a 6000 pound vehicle. Yeah, and this is huge. Yeah. And okay, yes, you're not if you're driving, you know, out in Moab, or the Rubicon trail? Yes, you're not polluting the air with it. But you're still trampling on the environment with this thing? Well, that's the reality is that most people that buy these things are never going to go anywhere near those trails anyway, so they have no business owning something like this.

Rebecca Lindland  1:51:32  
I just I don't know. I mean, first of all, they're not going to be building two or 300,000. Oh,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:51:38  
no, it's gonna be a few thousand of these. Yes.

Rebecca Lindland  1:51:42  
So it's gonna be you know, there is that aspect of it. And, you know, there's a lot of stuff that we don't need that people still buy. So need is very, very relative. And I just think, you know, I think it's a lot of fun. I mean, I just pulled up the technology adoption curve, two and a half percent of people are considered innovators and 13 and a half percent are considered early adopters. So I do think that, you know, you're looking at a small percentage of the marketplace, but this isn't a vehicle for every man, this isn't that's not the purpose of it. And you know, any any more than, like, the Ford GT is built for every man that's not built for for everybody, either. And so I think this is a fun way for GMC, to showcase its Evie capabilities. because keep in mind, too, that, you know, GM really needs to make a mark, in a world if, in fact, we go and 15 years in California bans, the sale of new gasoline vehicles, GM has to be part of that conversation. So from a corporate standpoint, I think that this is, this is an important vehicle, so that people start seeing GM as a technology leader, as opposed to a legacy automaker, so strategically, magically, I think this is an important vehicle for them.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:53:03  
And, and, you know, I understand why they're doing this as their first of their, their new generation of ATVs. You know, first of all, you know, use using, you know, using Hummer, you know, Hummer was the brand that epitomized, you know, the anti Green Movement, you know, analytic thousands, you know, this, this was the vehicle that, you know, environmentalists were going to dealerships and going in subdivisions, and vandalizing these things, because they were using so much gas, and to now have this vehicle be, you know, the standard bearer for new generation of GM electric vehicles. You know, it's it's an interesting play on that. You know, and certainly

Rebecca Lindland  1:53:44  
not to have been in that meeting, I would have to have been in that meeting. Somebody said, Let's make Hummer eBay. Yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:53:50  
You know, and, well, one of the interesting things about the briefing is, you know, they talked about they started this project, beginning of April 2019. Yeah, so they're only 18 months into this, which I think, almost certainly is a somewhat misleading statement, because I think that, while they probably greenlit the Hummer, and started working on the Hummer version, in April of last year, you know, they have been clearly working on this platform, and these battery electric vehicles, these battery systems and drive systems, you know, for several years,

Rebecca Lindland  1:54:23  
doesn't mean engineering was started 18 months.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:54:25  
Yeah. So you know, all they, you know, what they started was, you know, putting this new top hat on this platform 18 months ago, and, you know, it'll be roughly 30 months by the time it gets into production next year. You know, and my guess is that, you know, even though in the first year of production, we're only gonna see the edition one, even the, you know, the later versions, you know, the the base version, which is going to cost $80,000 isn't coming to 2024. Right. Yeah, I think that probably by the end of next year or early in 2022. We're going to see a Chevrolet pickup based on the same architecture that is going to be much more much, much more affordable. And that, you know, that's going to be the volume vehicle. Not Not this vehicle. This is

Rebecca Lindland  1:55:14  
so I don't know if this would be to cannibalistic. I, I think that Chevy is is I'm thinking about, I'm still thinking about those early adopters. And these people that who was going to buy a working man's Evie truck. And I would like to also see them put it under the GMC brand. And again, I know there's like some conflict because technically this is Hummer GMC, or GMC Hummer. You know, but if people want more of a practical version of this vehicle would GMC also.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:55:55  
Oh, yeah, sure, it'll be a GMC as well. So I

Rebecca Lindland  1:55:57  
mean, that's, and again, I'm just thinking of, of the person who buys electric vehicles. You know, a lot of the work I did in Saudi Arabia was centered around who buys electric vehicles? And and who doesn't. And so, you know, I think one of the reasons that Tesla's been so successful is, you know, despite all the other issues that go along with it, is because they are building a car for these innovators and early adopters with a with a feeling of premium and luxury. So I think that I'd love to see this technology expanded across more GM products. But I do think that you have to be strategic and understand who's in the marketplace, even in 2024, who's going to be in the marketplace, it's only a couple of years away. So, you know, I think that, from a consumer perspective, they've done a good job of getting this vehicle with all the bells and whistles with a high price point. Because early adopters, they don't buy Chevy, that's what we've seen, you know, they bought

Sam Abuelsamid  1:57:01  
I mean, they've had the opportunity to buy the bolt for four years, and they've stayed away in droves.

Rebecca Lindland  1:57:06  
Exactly. So let's try this strategy and go for it. Yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:57:10  
Yeah, no, I mean, from a purely from a marketing standpoint, I totally agree with you, I think that this was the right thing for them to do. But, you know, from a from any kind of rational standpoint, you know, this vehicle makes no sense at all and nobody.

Rebecca Lindland  1:57:24  
That's why you're the engineer, and I'm the marketer.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:57:27  
Exactly. Yes, you're exactly right. And with that, that's just some listener questions. So first up from Chris mizens all sorry, if I butchered your name there, Chris. Team, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the 2020 and 2021 24. Runner, I realized the drive train is super old. But that seems like both a strength and a weakness strength being that they're both they're so crazy, reliable. And they of course, between the weight and the old drive train, they get horrible gas mileage, I definitely don't need one. I'm not gonna argue there. But as I get into middle age, I kind of like the idea of day trips and long climbs with my dog into the Adirondacks and the Finger Lakes. We're in western New York. And of course, we get a ton of snow and bad weather. I have to think that they're really overdue for a major redesign the next couple of years seriously considering leasing a 21 TRD off rotor and then deciding in three years whether to buy it or walk away. What do you think? I think you've drowned. You've driven the four runner more recently than I have.

Rebecca Lindland  1:58:28  
Yes, I have. I actually I, as I recall, I had it over July 4 weekend last year. And I thought while it's I thought it was classically old school in the best possible way, if that makes sense. One of my girlfriend I actually my friend Lorraine, who I spoke with, I talked about earlier. I she moved back from Australia back in 22,002. I think it was 2004. And she bought a Toyota four runner, and I am pretty sure she still has that vehicle. And it's gone. She moved out to Montana. She was an Indian health services as a physician there for five years, imported her husband from Australia, and they were out there and they they drove that for runner. It actually has it still has the moose guard, which actually has saved her life on a number of occasions because she did hit a moose In fact, and so you know, it was it's I mean, this thing has been through it and it is continues to run it just won't die. When I had when I had the foreigner last year. I had a lot a lot of fun with it. First of all, you can fit a ton of stuff in it. We fit these two big club chairs that my mom had that we were moving up to my sister's summer home in northern Massachusetts, and they just slid right in. I mean it was kind of like okay, we can fit one and they're like, wait a minute, we can fit To have these things and these are big, your rounded armchairs. And it's just it's so old school. There's a level of authenticity that I think is hard to get in other vehicles. So I think you can't kill it. I think it's a lot of fun. I hear what you're saying is it's not quite as

Sam Abuelsamid  2:00:19  
refined as a Genesis. gvhd it's not

Rebecca Lindland  2:00:21  
quite as refined. But that's not what you know, if you're throwing your dog in there, if you're going up to the Adirondacks, by all means, Lorraine, by the way lives in Middletown, New York. So you know, New York is huge, obviously. But she's in that areas as well, you know, doing all sorts of offroad fun things with this thing. I think that I'm from my accounting background comes into play. So when I say that, financially, I do think that it's, you have to watch the numbers when it comes to leasing and then purchasing so that my only hesitation would be there. I also think that if you aren't going to be doing some significant off roading in this thing, that when you go to turn it in, you want to make sure that you don't get dinged for any wear and tear when you turn in your leased vehicle. So keep that some of those things in mind as well. But I mean, I think the forerunner is just it's so old school that I loved it. And actually, you know, I drove it all the way up to Massachusetts and back. So I drove it only about 500 miles. And I really liked driving it, it was fun. It wasn't, you know what, it's not the most comfortable car, but that's not why you buy it. And so I think that, you know, it's still a Toyota, there's still a really good foundation there in that vehicle. So that's my job.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:01:41  
So Chris, if you'd like to foreigner, get one, you know, maybe lease it and make up your mind in three years what you want to do, because you write probably by that time, there will be a next generation for runner, maybe? Maybe not. Yeah,

Rebecca Lindland  2:01:54  
I would. I think I just the leasing idea, I would explore that a little bit more, it's a payment issue. Okay. But I don't think it's a bad idea to

Sam Abuelsamid  2:02:06  
to buy it. Right. Well, let's, let's stick with mine. Let's stick with leasing an area. Let's stick with leasing for next question. This was re D during a recent show you talked about leasing briefly, would it be possible to do a segment more fully explained the ins and outs of leasing some questions I have assuming a three year lease with 15,000 miles a year not buying the car at the end of the lease? How do I negotiate the best deal on a lease? The combination of lowest or no upfront money and lowest monthly payment? What out of pocket costs are associated with a new lease? What routine maintenance am I responsible for doing the gap insurance. So you know going to give us give us a little breakdown on leasing you know, it's obviously something more than just you know, renting a vehicle for two or three years.

Rebecca Lindland  2:02:57  
Right so so leasing and keep in mind it does depend upon the manufacturer, whether you're using their capital lease company finance company, I so leasing I like to lease if you don't drive a lot of miles, I because but you want a new the reliability of a new car and you like to have a new car every few years. And with the pace of technology evolution, it's not a bad idea. If you if you like to have a latest technology to lease a vehicle It's uh, you know, it's a way to get into a car that may be above your price point for less money because you're really paying off the depreciation. When you're leasing a vehicle. I you know, the the cons of it are that you always have a car payment, basically, because you don't buy this thing and you don't have equity. So you can, it's easy to get into the leasing cycle, where every two to three years, you are turning in a car that you have paid for but you don't have any equity in it. And so if you want to get out of that leasing cycle, you've got to come up with the money for a down payment, because you don't have a down payment.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:04:19  
So even even if you are even if you're going to stand the leasing cycle, a lot of times you still have to come up with you still have to set aside some money over that lease term for the down payment on the next lease, right?

Rebecca Lindland  2:04:30  
You do. It's typically not as much as as if you were going to buy. So, you know, it depends again, every transaction is so complex, every transaction is so different every situation is so different in terms of you know, a three year lease 15,000 miles, I that, you know, miles per year, the best negotiating the best deal is really a matter of negotiating the value. Both from from the MSRP. And then what are they? What are they looking at as the buyout value, that's the difference between, that's what your payment is. So if this vehicle has, it's a $50,000 vehicle, and it has a $30,000 residual value, that $20,000 is what you're paying over the course of a 2430, or 36, or 39 month lease, if you are able to negotiate the MSRP, from 50,000, to 45,000, and you're able to increase the residual value from 30 to 35, suddenly, you're only paying $15,000 over the course of that of the the term and your payments going to be less. So you know, if you're leasing, you go in and try and negotiate the best deal on both ends. And certainly ask full disclosure, you know, you want to read over everything in that contract, when you're going into lease, you know, look carefully at your mileage, you may not need as much miles especially nowadays without commuting. So, you know, maybe negotiate a 12,000 or even a 10,000 mile a year lease. So and if you're running low on miles, you know, 24 months into a 36 month lease, go in the dealership and say, Can I can I swap this out, you know, if you can do that they want it they want to have good use cars, because they can resell that thing.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:06:22  
Yeah, a lot of times you can turn it in early, you know, if you're going to get a if you're going to, you know, go right into another new car, you know, then then they'll a lot of times they'll give you a really good deal. And you know, manufacturers often have those kinds of deals, those early turning deals.

Rebecca Lindland  2:06:37  
Exactly right. I mean, I least i would say i started leasing about, at least for probably almost nine years, I had three BMWs in a row that at least all of them. I and for me, it was a good experience. Once I started getting media cars, then it was a bad experience. Because you know a lot of money for a car that I really wasn't driving very much. I liked to lease because I was putting about 13 to 14,000 miles on the car, I frankly couldn't afford and shouldn't spend over $1,000 on a car payment. So it was I was able to get into a car that, you know, I wouldn't have been able to afford if I were to buy it, I definitely don't recommend going above a 60 month loan term. I was as you start to get into 72 and 84 months, you're never going to have equity, you're always going to be upside down on that loan, you're always going to owe more than the car is worth. So this is a good way to avoid that situation. But from a financial standpoint, certainly talk to your financial advisor. I it also it also depends on the taxes because sometimes from a company standpoint, from Ethiopia, if you have your own business, I think you can write off some of those expenses easier if it's a lease, but that may have changed. So don't take my word. Well,

Sam Abuelsamid  2:07:57  
my friend Leo Laporte Yes. So, you know, he, he and his wife, Lisa vehicles, because they're their company vehicles. So you know, they they write those off on the taxes, because they're, it's a business expense. So if you have that kind of situation, then yeah, you can, it can make more sense to do a lease than a purchase in that kind of scenario.

Rebecca Lindland  2:08:18  
Right. And then as far as routine maintenance, again, that varies by because some companies like BMW had zero maintenance. In other words, you know, it's kind of built into your lease, I remember talking to Porsche, and they did not offer anything like that. So again, I think it varies by manufacturer. And it's been a while since I leased anything, so they may have changed that, but I you will be responsible, you know, some manufacturers still charge you for some wear and tear. And again, when you turn in the vehicle, then they will oftentimes look and see, you know, what kind of wear and tear is on it. As far as gap insurance? You know. I do think that that is recommended. I think that they often build that in now, though. And gap insurance is basically when if something happens to the vehicle, if it's in an accident, if it's totaled, do you have to pay the difference between what you owe on it and what it's worth? So I'm a big fan of that kind of insurance. So I think I would certainly look into that. But again, it's on a transaction by transaction basis. So I'm sure there's listeners out there who don't have gap insurance. Every situation is different. And so these are just things that you need to explore. But Ray, I think you're asking all the right questions, and I think it's something that is good to explore for your specific situation and what what how you live and what your life stages and what your financial condition is.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:09:50  
And I just want to add one last note on leasing. If you're looking to get an electric vehicle, leasing is can actually be a probably the best Way to go, if you're getting an Eevee, because you mentioned earlier, you know, technology is changing, it's certainly changing for ease. And like, you know, one of the big challenges for EBS has been, you know, the residual values on most TVs are really bad. But because manufacturers need to sell a certain number of TVs, especially if you live in places like California or the other states that mandate a certain percentage of Evie sales, you can get some screaming deals on an Eevee. And that Another advantage is because, you know, with the tax credits on ATVs, typically, you know, if you if you were to buy an Eevee, you know, in 2020, if you bought it in January of 2020, that the federal tax credit, you can't claim that until your 2021, until you file your your 2020 taxes in 2021.

Rebecca Lindland  2:10:55  
And you can't claim it if you lease.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:10:57  
Well, what what happens is, you know, whoever is purchasing the vehicle, which is the finance company, they're the ones that that claim the tax incentive. So what happens is, you know, whether it's GM, financial, or anybody else, whatever, whatever the financing company is, they get that tax credit, they factor that into your lease payment. And so rather than waiting a year or more, to get that back, that basically gets factored into your payment from day one. So you that's why so many of the Eevee leases are so much the the monthly payments are so much cheaper, because they've already factored that in because the leasing company is going to take that, that that tax credit, whatever tax credits are available. So if you want to get an Eevee, and you want to get you know, pay the lowest possible price, leasing is probably the best way to do it. For for that particular scenario.

Rebecca Lindland  2:11:57  
Absolutely no, you're 100%, right, that it's, it's really best, if you are looking at an alternative propulsion vehicle to lease it, absolutely 100%.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:12:07  
So, and then if you do want to own it, buy, you know, a three year old off leased TV, because those are usually he'll often dirt cheap.

Rebecca Lindland  2:12:17  
But then, you know, to our earlier I, the guy that was talking, Chris that was talking about, you know, getting his four runner and leasing that and going off road with it. As I said, I do have concerns about when you go to turn that in,

Sam Abuelsamid  2:12:31  
what if you're going off road and scratching up the paint that that could be a problem,

Rebecca Lindland  2:12:35  
because you're also you know, when it comes to leasing your interest rate on that lease is significantly higher than if you were to buy it. So that's the other. That's why that's why buying it, you're paying a lot of interest if you turn around and purchase your vehicle that you just leased for three years. So if you look at the overall amount of money that you've spent on interest, it can be really significant. So if you buy the vehicle then and you get you know, one or 2% interest rate, then that may offset some of the interest that you paid on your loan on your lease, but you're paying interest on your leased vehicle.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:13:13  
So so so the answer of whether to buy or lease is maybe.

Rebecca Lindland  2:13:17  
Exactly. All right.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:13:21  
All right. Well, with that, why don't we call it a show. And thanks for joining us again, keep sending us your questions, feedback at wheel bearings, media, we love to get these and talk through these and try to help you out. And you know in the comments and if you want to give us a rating on Apple podcasts or wherever you're at listening to the shows, please that do that helps us up if you like the show, it helps us out helps people find the show. So, Rebecca, have a great week.

Rebecca Lindland  2:13:51  
You too. Thanks everyone.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:13:53  
Bye bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai