Dan Roth  0:04  
This is wheel bearings. Dan Roth from Forbes.

Rebecca Lindland  0:07  
I'm Rebecca Lindland from Rebecca drives.

Sam Abuelsamid  0:09  
And I'm Sam Abuelsamid from guidehouse Insights.

Dan Roth  0:12  
Welcome to Episode 169. We're gonna jump into what we're driving. So, Rebecca, what are you driving?

Rebecca Lindland  0:21  
So I had the 2020 Lexus RX 450 h L, which basically means it's the, you know, really the iconic Lexus RX, but this one has the hybrid engine in it. And it also has three rows. So my particular version was a six passenger, I believe it's also available as a seven passenger. I like most three rows sub seven

Sam Abuelsamid  0:45  
in quotes,

Rebecca Lindland  0:47  
seven in quotes, for that matter, yes. Is

Dan Roth  0:49  
the grandkids seats because that's the demo.

Rebecca Lindland  0:54  
No, you're absolutely right. And so this one has a 3.5 liter engine, 308 horsepower B six engine, I it's, you know, it's got the hybrid drive, which is good and has a CBT which is you know, the typical kind of whiny ones. And this had all wheel drive in it. You know, one of the things that first struck me is just it was such a, it has this gorgeous, deep, I Nori green color that's absolutely beautiful, especially here in New England against the fall colors. So you know, it's still a, it's still a really nice looking vehicle I the design of it is, it's, I can't say it's timeless, but it is I think they've done a nice job on, you know, keeping that look kind of

Dan Roth  1:36  
kept in production long enough that they can eventually be around a long time.

Rebecca Lindland  1:44  
trying to be nice here. Well, this one actually had like 9000 miles on it, which is forever in, you know, the media press fleet. So yeah, this one's been been on the road for a while, but I actually like that, because then it's kind of broken in a little bit. And, and, you know, it's a little bit more realistic as we always try and do because sometimes our experiences are not as realistic because the cars are brand new that we're getting. So, you know, overall, as typical Lexus it's safe, it's secure. It's reliable. It's not particularly exciting, which always call

Sam Abuelsamid  2:24  
you're saying this isn't an LLC,

Rebecca Lindland  2:26  
well, it always calls to mind the LC 500. Because, you know, that car is what they can do. But of course, this is a well, it's, I was gonna say it's a very different buyer. But is it really because I think that, you know, this is this is what, you know, this vehicle kind of made Lexus and but they, they've got to look at evolution, because as we've spoken about before, there is there are new buyers in the marketplace, the baby boomers are no longer dominating. And, you know, to that point, it was my mom's birthday, November 4, happy birthday, fellas.

Dan Roth  3:04  
Fellow Scorpios.

Rebecca Lindland  3:06  
And she's so cute. My mom's a riot. So we got her out, which doesn't happen very often because she's with my sister. And there's four pretty intimidating steps or five steps for her to get outside. So it can be tricky for her to share her. But mobility isn't as good as it used to be. But the one thing I knew was that she was going to be able to get in and out of this vehicle with absolutely no problem. And that truth proved to be true. And that is one thing that is very appealing about this, you know that you can always rely upon the Lexus RX to be an easy ingress and egress. And so it's a vehicle that's easy to live with. It does a lot of things. Well, it is not the most exciting vehicle on the road today, but it's not intended to be and that's not what this buyer is looking for. So I will say I was a little disappointed, because it is a hybrid. As I mentioned, the fuel economy is rated for 29 City 28 Highway 29 combined. I got 25.5, which I was a little disappointed about. And I was trying your

Sam Abuelsamid  4:09  
left foot

Rebecca Lindland  4:11  
while I was trying to think back on. You know, I mean, I actually did quite a bit of highway driving. But I also did quite a bit of in town driving my average, my average miles per hour was only 21. So I wasn't that much of a lead. So you know, it's kind of disappointing, I would certainly expect it to be higher up especially I because this model starts at 56,000. And then it's got all sorts of fun good things to it. That brings it

Dan Roth  4:41  
just to start at 56 because the is that the long wheelbase that makes it

Rebecca Lindland  4:46  
because I think it's about the hybrid and the long wheelbase.

Dan Roth  4:49  
Yeah. I think you can get the shorter one for for less.

Sam Abuelsamid  4:53  
Yes. For what it's worth. I think the wheelbase is actually the same on both. It's just the body is longer.

Rebecca Lindland  4:59  
You're Right, the wheelbase is is the same. And then they've they've made the body longer. Yes. So they've taken down, I think, but you're right. I mean, the, the RX 450 starts at about 50. Right, but the actual, so they've taken, as I mentioned, because this vehicle has been in the fleet for a while Lexus only has the 2021 up on their site now, I but I just looking@cars.com they have it that there, it's actually only a 60, which I'm not sure if that's the only way that it's available for the hybrid. But it's got captain's chairs in the middle.

Dan Roth  5:37  
Yeah.

Rebecca Lindland  5:39  
And then and so it's got captains chairs in the middle, and then two seats in the back. And also keep in mind, you know, if you're ever wondering how many, if your car shopping, just look at the number of seat belts, because that will that will really tell you how many people can you can fit. So if you're looking at a three row vehicle, count the seat belts, I believe

Sam Abuelsamid  6:00  
that it'll tell you nominally how many you can fit. How many actual human beings you can put in. There's entirely different scenarios. And

Dan Roth  6:07  
I know a lot of actual human beings though,

Sam Abuelsamid  6:10  
that that LLC has two seat belts in the back as well. But I wouldn't, I wouldn't dare to try to put somebody in.

Rebecca Lindland  6:18  
Of course not. But my point is that sometimes they have a cup holder in the middle. And so like the back in the third row of this, there are cupholders and armrests. Like it's distinctly not designed, you're never going to put three people in there. And but you can just glance real quick and say, is that coupled? Or are they permanent? Are they in place? Or does it actually have three seat belts? That's just a quick look.

Dan Roth  6:42  
No, that's that's a good point.

Rebecca Lindland  6:45  
This a little tip. So you know, again, this thing is fully loaded, it's got heated and cooled seats, it's got all sorts of good things to it all sorts of safety features. Of course, this one was dolled up with a $3,000 navigation system, which again, was, you know, one of the things So Sam and I were talking about this before we went on the air. So Lexis added Android Auto and Apple CarPlay, for 2020. But I could have sworn that I could not get Android Auto to work in this vehicle. And frankly, I didn't try very hard because a lot of Lexus and Toyota didn't have Android Auto available. But then when I was doing more research and looking at it, it was actually supposed to be available. But just Sam and I were talking, it looks like some it might say it, but it's not always the case. So you know, I think these are pre production or at least early potentially early runs on the model year. So even though it's on the meroni, I wasn't able to use it. But they they also added a touchscreen. And they changed they moved the the screen a little bit closer to the driver. One of the things that I did sort of like that was kind of charming on it was these breadcrumbs, and I'll send a picture so you guys can see. But it would show where you had driven that in that trip. And it was really kind of charming. And then also it would show if you had driven that in a previous trip, which is kind of fun, because then you don't always have to rely on GPS, if you're going someplace that maybe you had been before but couldn't quite remember. Or like just for tracking like I had to I had to run to three different places. I was a post office actually, it turns out that my local post office takes a lunch break, which I did not know, but the another post office nearby does not take a lunch break. So my breadcrumbs were I was going a mile and a half to my local post office that was closed and I had to go three miles the other direction to go to the a different post office. And then I had to circle back around because I had to go someplace else. And it was kind of funny to see like all these the whole incredibly inefficient trip that I had just made me driving around trying to find a

Dan Roth  9:00  
post office like um, family circus, right? When it was all over. I think read breadcrumbs I forgot about breadcrumbs that was like, oh, back in the early days of nav two they used to have breadcrumbs of was like enabled on all the cars. I remember that. So I forgot that that was the thing.

Sam Abuelsamid  9:24  
Yeah, well, actually, it's, it's, it's actually back for the new Ford Bronco. Yeah, and this is actually one of the features they tout on the bronco is, you know, being able to record where you go, you know, because when you're off roading with a vehicle like that, you may be places where there is no information on the maps.

Dan Roth  9:43  
So it's like what you said like dead reckoning too. So it just still GPS was

Sam Abuelsamid  9:47  
still using still using GPS. And when you're out in the open, you know, it's easy to get a GPS signal, but you know, you may be on someplace that isn't mapped. And so you can you know or taking a particular trail that you Want to share so you can actually record and save those. And you can upload those breadcrumbs back to the site that they're gonna have for Bronco owners. And then other other people can download the same route and follow that same trail and they want

Rebecca Lindland  10:16  
Oh, clever. I love that.

Dan Roth  10:18  
Yeah, having friends.

Sam Abuelsamid  10:21  
Well, they don't like friends. They're just people that aren't Broncos.

Dan Roth  10:24  
I want to go off road to get the hell away from people tell them where I'm going

Rebecca Lindland  10:28  
to say you actually have to like people that

Dan Roth  10:31  
were you can tell them you can show them a map that goes friend of cliff.

Rebecca Lindland  10:36  
That's to the Lexus RX. Question. Yes.

Dan Roth  10:40  
So how was the interior now because the RX is consistently been one of these sort of least impressive lexuses. To me, I understand why it exists. And it's a it's a good fit for the market. But it just feels it feels like some of the materials and design are are way out of date now, but I haven't been in one and a little bit. So have they improved it? Or is it okay,

Rebecca Lindland  11:03  
it's funny that you should say that because I just pulled up my pictures because I wanted to comment that they I think they actually did a really nice job on the interior. Okay, the I let I love actually the, in the center console. They have a shiny finish, but it's actually pin striped, which was really cute. So this, this has a brown, brown and tan combination, mostly mostly a nice chocolate brown with some tan accents. And then really, actually really lovely topstitching eye to it. And the seats were, you know, again, they were heated and cooled. So they had the perforation to it. But they were very comfortable. There was nice bolstering and I you know, and again, I think that they overall they did a nice job in the captain's chairs in the center row, they have these little pop out cupholders which I to me just fell breakage. But that's the only way that they could get cupholders there.

Dan Roth  12:00  
Are there they down like in the side of the seat.

Rebecca Lindland  12:03  
Yeah, yes, I have a picture of it.

Dan Roth  12:05  
So they're like they're like if they said basically put like seanna seats in this thing.

Sam Abuelsamid  12:09  
Probably, like, it's very like, exactly what they are. Yeah.

Rebecca Lindland  12:14  
They're not the, the Ottoman set, you know, they're brand new.

Sam Abuelsamid  12:19  
The old Sienna,

Rebecca Lindland  12:20  
right, the old Sienna, but they're but they're fine. They're nice. I mean, I thought the interior was well done. You know, again, though, what, what this brand is facing and what this this particular model is facing are things like the Genesis GB ad that I was in that is spectacular for, you know, about the same price point. So, to your point, Dan, while this interior is lovely, and it was totally fine. And it was it certainly had that kind of a luxury feel to it. And and again, the color combination was very warm. But man the competition Yeah, this vehicle came out like 17 years ago.

Sam Abuelsamid  13:00  
Yeah. Yeah, it's Yeah, the current generation actually came out exactly five years ago this month in November 2015. It Wow.

Dan Roth  13:08  
So that's the thing, though it always even when it was new.

Sam Abuelsamid  13:13  
It It felt old.

Dan Roth  13:15  
Yeah, it felt old. And I know that economically, we're in kind of a different place when it when it came out. And in the last five years, interiors have gotten much, much better. There was sort of some hangover. Well, five years ago now was 2015. Yeah, so

Rebecca Lindland  13:31  
yeah, no, this this should have been. But again, I don't think the interior is a knock on it at all. I think it's actually quite nice. So I don't have any issues with the interior.

Dan Roth  13:42  
Yeah, while for me, I just, yeah, I

Sam Abuelsamid  13:44  
had an RX earlier this year. And, you know, it's, you know, I've never really had a complaint about the materials in the fit and finished, I had some issues with the kind of the design and the layout, particularly the touchpad. But, you know, the, you know, the, I've never saw the the fit and finish as an issue.

Dan Roth  14:04  
Yeah, I think mostly it was materials and some of it can be, you know, like, like, we've talked about the way they're chosen to put in the fleet. Right, if you send me a car, that's a luxury car, and the interior is black and gray. I'm sorry, that's not gonna be terribly

Rebecca Lindland  14:20  
impressive. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But I think so. I think that the The interior is, is I think it's actually very nice. I and I love this color combination. I mean, I love that sort of warm, cozy feel.

Dan Roth  14:36  
Just does do they when they do it, they do a nice luxury interior. So

Rebecca Lindland  14:40  
do I think it's very nice. I mean, I'm, again, I'll link to some pictures and such but I but the competition that's that's really the problem that I see for this vehicle is there is so much competition out there that you know, is it really something special anymore? For, I don't know, there is a lot of room in the back with the back seats, the third row folded down, you know, because it has a longer wheelbase that I will tell you, you know, if not actually the wheelbase is longer body longer

Dan Roth  15:15  
screwed up,

Sam Abuelsamid  15:17  
it's four and a half inches longer. So the body, the body

Rebecca Lindland  15:21  
is longer. So I will say that, if you're in a position where, you know, you primarily just carry two people in the second row, so most of the time you have four people in your vehicle, then, and you want some extra storage with the, with the possibility of using a third row, if needed, I would probably spring for the owl, if you you know, if you never carry more than four people, and you don't need more storage than just go for the regular length, but that the L does give you more, more versatility to it. Because those that third row folds totally flat too. So so

Sam Abuelsamid  15:59  
if you if you like to go to a state sales and stuff like that, or antique shops, you know, yes. And you need that extra bit of cargo space back there, or even even road tripping, you know, if you're going, you know, having some extra room, especially if you've got a couple of kids. Yeah, yeah, younger kids, you know, put the kids in the second row. And you know, when you've got young kids, there's always a whole bunch of additional stuff that you have to take wherever you guys catch. Yeah,

Dan Roth  16:27  
it's not the word I use Word. But it's the thing though, like, and this is one of those sort of problems that we have not, not just with the RX, it's just sort of these these middle weight, three rows, is that third row is always going to be kind of tight. And because they've done the captain's chairs, so that it's more comfortable. In in the second row, so day to day, it's probably more comfortable, and it's more comfortable for how most people are going to use it. But it's actually it's only one more person, then sort of a two row r x, right, because the X is gonna have a bench in the back. So you get five, five people. This is six people, they may be that that extra couple, you know, the extra folks in the third row might be a little more comfortable, then a three across. Right situation, but I you know, I guess I don't know, I'd have to try it. Because I am fun sized. So I fit in those. Well, but but leg room and stuff might be different.

Sam Abuelsamid  17:36  
You know, I mean, early on, Rebecca, you you called the third row, you know, for the for the grandkids. But you know, the the issue with that is, you know, it's small enough, I think that, you know, only younger grandkids are gonna fit comfortably back. So yeah, so teenagers are not going to be comfortable in that third row. Yeah, but those younger kids, you know, they need to be in booster seats. So if you've got to get get, you know, get young kids into booster seats in that third row. Yeah, you know, kind of defeats the purpose. Yeah,

Rebecca Lindland  18:05  
no, you're right. Because again, looking at my pictures, I with the if, if you have a good size person in the passenger or driver seats, those seats are back. And then that second row, even there, you it's tight. I mean, putting that putting the second row in a in a position where the third row isn't right back to the backseat isn't right back up against the third row. So you it's definitely a juggling situation, and you're not fitting a basketball team in here. You know, it's tight, for sure.

Dan Roth  18:40  
Do they have latch anchors on the third row? Oh, you know what they probably do. But that's you know, that's, that's one of the things that I ran into on some cars, you know, a lot of cars. At least back when I was using latch anchors for the kids. A lot of cars only had two across in the, in the backseat, some cars are wide enough to do three across, but not most. So yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  19:06  
I looked it up and see that's a good question. Yeah. For what it's worth, you know, this was a this cars in the fifth year of its product lifecycle. I would guess 2021 is probably going to be the last year I think by this time next year, we will probably see a new generation RX and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if you know it because it really this you know, this three row version was kind of an afterthought for Lexus, it was not there. It came in mid mid cycle. And I wouldn't be surprised if they do a proper three row crossover next year. And because in fact you know they've shown you I think last year or the year before they had a three row crossover concept I forget what it was called. But I would be shocked if we don't see Lexus do a proper three row crossover, you know closer in size to something like the gv ad or You know, the Audi Q seven, you know, something like that, that, you know that that actually fits, you know, people in that third row, you know, or, you know, the Cadillac XT six is another good example. And and then, you know, have have the standard two row and then something with a longer wheelbase to accommodate that third that third row seats.

Rebecca Lindland  20:20  
Yes, I agree, I think but you know, again, I just looking at, I mean, there's, there's plenty of different versions of this vehicle. It does start at about 45,000. Sorry, it just went away. And I touched my screen in it

Dan Roth  20:36  
yet. Thank you very much like 46?

Rebecca Lindland  20:38  
I yeah. 4540 5070 for the RX 350? I am not, that is the original. That's the that's the original.

Dan Roth  20:49  
original recipe.

Rebecca Lindland  20:50  
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, I think overall, overall, the car is very good. There's, you know, you've got a Lexus in there, it's going to keep its value it's going to behave, it's going to do a lot of things really well. But the challenge is that there are really good choices out there. And that that to me, I mean, it's it's no longer just sort of rinse and repeat of buy an AR x and then buy another one. And then another one. There's so many good vehicles out there in this class, that it's definitely facing a lot of competition, but you're not going to be unhappy with it. You know, it's I think it's if you love Lexus, and this is the brand for you and the dealerships convenient. And that you know, and all that all the services convenient, then by all means you're never going to go wrong buying this vehicle. But there are more exciting opportunities and choices out there. I think.

Dan Roth  21:47  
So knowing what you know, you just had the new Sienna a little while ago. Right. And you've got the revised Highlander. And I think you had to try the Venza to

Rebecca Lindland  22:00  
I did try the Benza and I don't know if I've spoken about it yet. Yeah. I love that look.

Dan Roth  22:05  
So I think that's where Toyota and Lexus are headed. I know I realized I just picked out three Toyota models, but looking at the improvements from those. You know, does that sort of portend? Well for for the RX when they did because I think Sam's right. I think that this this one is like the no more updates unless we absolutely have to work coming out with a new one. Yeah, super soon.

Rebecca Lindland  22:32  
I think really, I think the biggest challenge for the Lexus brand is demographics. They there they are the brand of baby boomers and baby boomers are getting older. And I get I mean, it's one of the reasons I brought up my mom was because this was something that she could very comfortably get in and out of. And so, you know, if she was 10 years younger and still driving, I would, I would, you know, put her in something like this. The NX is another good option. I think for people that maybe want a little bit smaller vehicle. But I feel like the biggest challenge for Lexus is simply staying relevant to younger consumers, you know, they've never really pitched to Gen X. And, and millennials grew up in them. So they're so you know, it's on some level, it's sort of the Buick of the millennials. So yeah, yeah. You know, so and so I think that's their biggest challenge, really, as we talked about before, the, you know, the cars are good, they make a good product, and but it's just a brand, that brand itself has not been able to evolve to include younger cohorts. And I think that's one of their biggest challenges.

Dan Roth  23:50  
I'm sure they're working on it would be I'd be really curious to see where they think they might go because, yeah, absolutely. As a member of Gen X. I'm not buying a Lexus unless it's like an original first couple generations Ls 400 you know, or, you know, if I were interested in the RX because I think the RX, like the RX really defined its category 20 years ago salutely that first RX was touchstone. Actually, I go for one of those. So there's a couple of reasons why right? Like, I don't have the disposable income to drop $48,000 on or $56,000 on a three row crossover from dropping that kind of money. It's got to be and it's a pretty versatile car, but I need two cars for that money, not one.

Rebecca Lindland  24:42  
But even if you did even if you did have the disposable income it wouldn't be the one I picked what's not right that's the challenge right is that you know, when you think about and I know we talked about it a lot, but for good reason. The Hyundai palisade the Kia telluride you know those kinds of things. Calls you're getting that third row with a lot of comfort for about the same price.

Sam Abuelsamid  25:06  
Yeah, actually very premium feeling interior as well.

Rebecca Lindland  25:09  
credibly premium feeling I would say they're less. Yeah, really? Yeah. $10,000 left.

Dan Roth  25:19  
So that's, that's where the brand reputation comes in. And I think that's, that's definitely something that Lexus has locked up. And that's very important. And it probably helps him now but you know, it's funny like to I've seen enough chatter among weird car Twitter to say, like Lexus might want to consider a version of the Sienna. But then I realized that that's just that's a very small subset of us making noise. It's not, nobody's gonna buy it, but like, what vehicle type? Are they gonna go for? Next? Because I do think that they're there? Well, right now, crossovers seem to be, you know, crossovers and SUVs seem to be still continually popular. You got to look five years out and see what what it's going to be. And it there may be some shift, especially as lifestyles have have certainly changed in the last nine months. Right. So yeah, but

Rebecca Lindland  26:14  
if they're if they're looking to do like a hatch and a sedan or something, the Lexus sedans are fantastic.

Dan Roth  26:21  
Yeah, I don't know that we go back to sedans. I mean, I think, I think people like the utility of crossovers. And and I don't I don't know, where we actually where we wind up with that, you know?

Rebecca Lindland  26:33  
Yeah, I mean, because they've got, you know, they've got the UX at 32,000. I mean, they've, they have filled in, you know, and the GX and LX, they have filled in the SUV market, so you can get these types of vehicles. I think a lot of it is the marketing. I think that's true. You know, and, and when you talk about the brand reputation, I mean, the resale value, you know, one of the challenges that Hyundai and Kia are facing is resale value, because you know, it, they do have to continue to build their brand, but they're, they're starting in the right place with the product with Lexus, the product is there, but they have got to become more relevant. And, and figure out a way to, to get into these younger, younger demographics. And when I say younger, you know, keep in mind that like the oldest millennial is coming into 45, they're gonna be 50 in five years. So we're not talking about kids that are living in their basement anymore. Congratulations.

Dan Roth  27:34  
That's the sort of fallacy is that, you know, a lot of folks, you know, 20 years ago gets frozen in time, at a certain point. So for a lot of people 20 years ago is 1980. Like, no, no, that's not the case. Yeah, so they, it's, it's hard to understand sort of, I guess, how to reach the, the sort of oncoming generations. And, you know, you you built your brand on boomers, you need to replace boomers as your customer. And the only generation that's that large is actually probably what Gen Z. So after the millennials,

Rebecca Lindland  28:15  
the millennials, the millennials, the original definition of millennials were exactly the same size, just about the same size as baby boomers. So they each had about 80 million people,

Dan Roth  28:24  
right, it covers a lot around that's a lot different. And you know, there's, there's within it, there's probably stratifications as well, but of course, um, you know, just like offer some, like college loan assistance, put money in the trunk.

Rebecca Lindland  28:39  
junk in the trunk.

Dan Roth  28:41  
I mean, really, like, that's, that's another that. So we're not gonna solve this on the podcast, but like, looking at the other challenges that, you know, oncoming generations have is a, they just don't have the disposable income. They don't they don't have the the credit to the baby boom had sort of available to it. So there's a lot of stuff going on clearly. So cars?

Rebecca Lindland  29:11  
Well, no, there is I mean, and I think that, you know, what their priorities are, are different as well. because keep in mind, we can't forget that. Only about 5% of Americans buy a new car, you know, in that every year we're selling, you know, 15 to 16 million. So we're not talking about the general audience here. And you know, so when we think about the new car buyer, keeping our eyes focused on them, I you know, their loan situation may be different. They may have the disposable income, but it but the challenge is that there's a lot of other brands that are making products that are just as good, if not better than the Lexus RX and that's the biggest challenge to this product. It does a lot of things really well. It's a it's a perfectly Good vehicle, the challenge is that there's so much competition out there. All right,

Dan Roth  30:05  
I think it's a perfect time to move on to the Audi Q seven, driving, because we're going from sort of a newer contender that is or that they've been around a long time now. But you know, when Lexus arrived, it put everybody like Audi on notice. So how's how's the Q seven. So it's also a three row,

Sam Abuelsamid  30:23  
it is a three row and it's, it's more, it's a more proper three row, I mean, it's bigger, it's bigger than the RX, I mean, it actually works better as a three row than the RX, long, long body does. You know, and actually, for what it's worth, this Q seven is the same age as the RX, it can't, you know, this generation came out in 2015. And yet, somehow, it doesn't feel quite as old. it you know, it feels it feels more contemporary, you know, in a lot about this Q seven, you know, even when it came out, you know, was, I would say less controversial than the current generation Rx, you know, the, the design is more conservative, you know, it was never quite as out there as the as the RX design language. And, you know, so I think that it's, it's held up better, it did also get a refresh, you know, for 2020 model year. So, you know, about a year ago, they launched a refresh version. And, you know, there was minimal exterior changes with that, I think they made some tweaks to the grille and to the lights and things like that, the more prominent change was on the inside, you know, the whole dashboard infotainment system was replaced. So they ditched the, the Audi rotor, excuse me, the rotary MMI controller, and replaced it with a dual touchscreen setup. So it's the same, it's the same configuration that you'll find in the current generation, Audi, a six, a seven, eight, and also in the E Tron, where you've got two, two touchscreens, the upper touchscreen is kind of your information screen, that's where you get nav and interface to the audio system, the media controls, and then down below the lower touchscreen, has some of the climate control stuff seats, you know, some, some of the more in depth stuff, you know, beyond what's available with physical switches. That's, that's all buried in that lower screen. And, you know, talked about this a bit before, one of the interesting things that that Audi did with their touchscreen interface is, and I say interesting, not necessarily in a good or bad way, I'll leave it up to you to decide is, you know, putting haptic feedback in there. So you know, with most touchscreens, you know, you just tap on them, you know, it's a solid piece of glass, you know, there's no feedback at all from it. And it responds with this one, you actually have to press a little bit, it's not just a tap, tap, it won't respond, you actually have to press on the touch targets more affirmatively than you normally would with a touchscreen. And then you you get a haptic feedback, you know, when it's when it's recognized your signal. It's not a hard press. But you know, it does take a little more pressure than you typically would with a touchscreen. And I'm not, you know, I first experienced it on the E Tron when I drove the E Tron last year, I think. And I'm not crazy about it. You know, it's, I mean, I've gotten used to it, but um, it's, it's not my favorite user interface.

Rebecca Lindland  33:42  
So funny, because I really like that. I like knowing that it's registered my, my action, like, I don't know, I like that feedback.

Sam Abuelsamid  33:54  
You know, I think for me, maybe it's a little bit of PTSD from the days when I actually used a black blackberry storm, which, you know, actually had a moving touchscreen, it was actually it was the screen was actually built on physical switches behind it, and the screen at you know, because they wanted to try to recreate, you know, the classic black blackberry keyboard thing, but with a touchscreen, and it was just horrible. But it was horrible for so many reasons, not just ridiculous touchscreen,

Dan Roth  34:26  
touchscreens, you know, we're gonna watch as this they continue to try to find solutions and new, new new ways to let us know that yes, I have registered your request for this function. So I the haptic feedbacks not bad the problem still is that you have to divert your attention

Sam Abuelsamid  34:50  
to it. And yeah, you still have to look at the screen to hit a touch target, you know, which were the physical control you don't.

Dan Roth  34:57  
How are the touch target? Are they large? Like that's what he said. I've actually seen is that they figured out, like, we need to actually take stuff off the screen and make the touch targets bigger. Yes. Um, and I think it's Volkswagen, it's maybe it senses your finger, and it actually zooms it up as your finger.

Sam Abuelsamid  35:13  
In some cases, yeah. Does that, but so yeah, the, you know, the interface itself is fine. You know, it's, it's, it's attractive, you know, the touch targets are large, you know, they've spread things out, so you're less likely to hit the wrong thing. So you don't have to be as precise as you as you might have been in the past. So that's a good thing. So they're there, they're working through that. And I think they're, they're starting to get a handle on that. You know, but I'm, I'm not sure that the, you know, the haptic feedback is necessarily is necessary. Plus, it's also somewhat inconsistent. If you're using Android Auto or Apple CarPlay. When you're in those interfaces, there is no haptic feedback. You so there, you just tap it, and it responds. So you only get the haptic feedback when you're in the native outtie interface. So there's that inconsistency there, which I think is, you know, because I kept wanting to, you know, when I went into Android Auto, I kept wanting to press harder than I needed to, and there was no, no response from, you know, it did what it was supposed to do, but it didn't, it didn't move the screen. So there's that, you know, I think if you're, if you're going to do something like haptic feedback, make it consistent, you know, figure out a way to make it consistent across the board.

Rebecca Lindland  36:33  
I think we're on Sorry,

Sam Abuelsamid  36:37  
no, just just rather than, you know, keeping it to your native interface,

Rebecca Lindland  36:42  
I think that we're finding more and more of that issue, though. And we'll get into this in the next week. With that. One, what, when you're interacting with Android Auto or Apple CarPlay, what native features are still available and what goes away. And, you know, I think that's an evolution that we're going through as well. But what's interesting to me too, is that how much time we continue to spend on the interface, you know, and and rather than the driving dynamics, which I when I had the the key seven, I thought that it was a little bit almost stodgy a little heavy. I didn't you know, even if I put it in dynamic mode, but it's just interesting to me that so much of our time, you know, has to be devoted to these infotainment and interactions because they dominate the ownership experience.

Sam Abuelsamid  37:36  
Yeah, did the Q seven you drove? And was it the two liter or the three liter? I had the 45 TFSI, or the 55, TFSI?

Rebecca Lindland  37:45  
I had the 55. I the three liter be sex?

Dan Roth  37:48  
Did you have one set of numbers? It doesn't make any sense or another set of numbers doesn't? Exactly.

Sam Abuelsamid  37:54  
Yeah. So you're right, you're right about you know, the driving dynamics, you know, this is by no means a, a lightweight vehicle, you know, the four cylinder, you know, the two liter, turbo four cylinder, that one weighs 40 784 pounds. And today, it's the V six is almost just shy of 5100 pounds curb weight, which is a lot of mass to be pulling out it granted, you know, the, you know, the twin turbo V six 335 horsepower, 369 foot pounds of torque, it's, you know, it's a powerful engine,

Rebecca Lindland  38:30  
it's got 7700 pounds of towing capacity.

Sam Abuelsamid  38:32  
Yeah. So, you know, telling telling us about an issue. Yeah. But, you know, it's, there's, there's a lot of mass, you're moving around. So even in dynamic mode, you know, it doesn't, this doesn't feel like a sport SUV. Yeah. Right. You know, it's, everything is very deliberate. Yeah, it doesn't Well, you know, it's the body well controlled. I think the the ride quality is really good, you know, good good damping and everything. Steering is a bit on the light side, even in dynamic mode, you know, it's not, it's not set up that way. But then again, you know, if you want something like that, you know, there's they also offer the Sq seven, which, you know, is got a more sporting feel to it, although, I think really, if you want something like that, you're probably better off, you know, with, you know, something like the, the seven or you know, the six as an alternative, but, you know, it, it does have, you know, a more spacious third row, it's not a huge third row and you know, we're not talking like suburban style seating in the back there, but, but it does have a usable third row, and plenty of cargo space. You know, overall, the size of the vehicle, I think is a reasonable size for a three row SUV. It's not overly huge, you know, it's relatively easy to park and it's, you know, it's generally a very pleasant vehicle to drive. However, it's not an inexpensive vehicle to drive in the morning. When I had, you know, was fairly loaded up, it was the prestige package with the 20 inch wheels. Run flat tires, actually, this was net sorry, had the optional 21 inch wheel package. So the prestige comes with 20s, the one I drove had the 20 ones as optional, which even with those, and I think that may have contributed somewhat to that, that kind of heavy feel to it, because it didn't really seem to impact the ride quality very much. But, you know, having those big wheels does add unsprung mass and Chen's tends to make a vehicle feel less responsive. And bottom line price on this thing came to $75,290 including the the $995 destination charge.

Dan Roth  40:45  
I mean, that's terrible, but it's not that terrible. No, it's actually bad. It's not bad.

Unknown Speaker  40:50  
75,000

Sam Abuelsamid  40:52  
Yeah. 75,000.

Rebecca Lindland  40:53  
So mine was at 6000

Dan Roth  40:57  
You must have, you must have gotten like, the sort of press lead special, like a prestige plus with the white leather and like the way nobody would ever spec it, but it's gorgeous.

Sam Abuelsamid  41:08  
Yeah. So, you know, you can also get a gv at around this price point as well, the high end g VAT, you know, is in that 75 $76,000 price range. And they're similar in size and and Genesis, you know, I don't know, they list the Q seven is one of the competitive set for the G VAT along with the, the x five and a couple of others. So, you know, I think if I was if I had to choose, you know, between this and you know, say a Volvo XC 90 I would probably go with this one, I think. But, you know, I think it's a little more my style. But the, in comparing this to the gvhd, you know, especially the interior, I think, you know, is an interesting contrast, you know, the one I had was black with a black interior. And, you know, in general, you know, Audi's always had really well finished nice material interiors. But you know, they haven't felt I wouldn't, you know, the word I would not use for them is, like, sumptuous or opulent, you know, they're all that, you know, it's it's typical German, you know, or more traditional German, you know, where it's more a more restrained look and feel to it, which is not necessarily a bad thing. You know, I wouldn't, and it's not Stark, but it's, you know, compared to the gvhd or Lincoln aviator, those two vehicles, I think, feel more opulent and feel more traditional luxury, as opposed to, you know, kind of the more functional approach that outtie takes with their design. So, it's a matter of personal taste. You know, whatever, whatever you like better. I'd have to drive these two back to back. You know, I'm not sure which one actually, to be honest, I actually probably wouldn't take for me personally, if I was spending my own money, I wouldn't be buying an SUV. But that's, that's my, that's my personal taste. I would go for a sedan,

Rebecca Lindland  43:06  
sorry, I actually did drive them back to buy I drove I drove that Audi Q seven down to New York, where I picked up the Genesis GB ad. Okay, and so I did kind of drive them back to back and you write, I think that the GB ad has a sportiness to it, that the Q seven is very stately. Like that's, it's, it's, it's funny, because, you know, my review isn't posted yet. But I think we said almost the exact same thing the steering and driving dynamics were a bit stiff, almost heavy, even an Audi select dynamic drive mode, like that's exactly what my reviews and but the GB ad had a sporty or more youthful feel to it almost, you know, and again, we get back to that conversation of competitiveness in this space. There are such good products in it. I did find you know, I like Audi setup in from the interior standpoint, they've done a nice matte feel wood to it. I don't know if it's officially open pour or not. But I think that there's a bit of an austerity but at the same time, you know, a luxury it's a it's a it's a sporty luxurious feel, I think in the Q seven it's just that the driving dynamics don't necessarily reflect that. I you know, I had I had a camel colored Well, it's, I always think of a baseball glove, like it's sort of, you know, color to it. I had to get in the seats were really well done. Very, very comfortable. So, you know, huge sunroof, I love the enormous sunroof in that and but, and it's sort of that this is, I would say, almost durable, timeless design, like the Q sub like that The RX is I you know, it's not it hasn't changed a lot. It hasn't evolved a lot over time. I but, but, you know the GB ad is nothing is sexy like, exterior standpoint it's sexy.

Sam Abuelsamid  45:16  
Yeah, I mean the gv ad, you know, the new Genesis design language is definitely much more out there, you know, and it's a it's a very different kind of feel to it. And you know, for what it's worth it you know the gvhd is a little more powerful. It's got about 40 more horsepower than, than the Audi does. You know, and depending on which, you know, I'm just looking at the specs right now, for an all wheel drive, gvhd, it's actually about the same weight, you know, depending on the configuration, or the trim level ranges from 4900 to 5100 pounds for a seven passenger, you know, for a three row version. So, it's, it's almost, you know, almost identical in that respect, but they did give it a little bit more, it feels lighter on its feet, I would say,

Rebecca Lindland  46:06  
right, but the four cylinder GB Avi was also really, really good, because I drove the four cylinder one way to the reg stop, and then the V six back. And, you know, there, it was just really good. Again, you get I always caution people, you you may run into issues with the resale value. But if you lease, then that's not as much of a concern. It is somewhat but you know,

Sam Abuelsamid  46:29  
but and, you know, if you're someone like me, that tends to keep vehicles for a long time, you know, if you keep your vehicles for seven to 10 years, resale value is not as big an issue.

Rebecca Lindland  46:41  
Right, but a lot of luxury people don't.

Sam Abuelsamid  46:43  
Yeah, but they also tend to lease Anyway, you know, yeah, exactly. BMW, I think they've said, you know, like, 90% of their us, quote, unquote, sales are actually leases. Right?

Dan Roth  46:54  
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's, that mitigates the risk in both owning expensive complex European luxury vehicles. And the first one, but Well, no, I'm just getting back to that, that that brand perception gap, right? Yeah. So Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, they're all pretty well established, you know, what, you're going to get their premium lines. But Genesis is still establishing itself, if you're a least customer that sort of removes one of those barriers, like, well, am I gonna get stuck with a lemon, it's sort of a new, untested brand. Not saying that any of that is accurate for Genesis, but those are concerns on the on the buyer level, especially when you're spending $80,000 on a car. Even if you have the bucks, you you are careful with them. So leasing, if it's, you know, a sort of parody across, you know, the cost from one brand to the other, hey, you know, you've got to for three years, two years, and then you know, if it sucks, okay? Or if it's great, you'll get another, you know, like that, that sort of removes some of that uncertainty. So it can be a really good way for them to establish themselves. So I think that's, that's why it's been frustrating to watch Genesis make these really good sedans that haven't done a thing because that's not what people are buying. Like, need to get that GVA out there.

Rebecca Lindland  48:19  
And the dealership model and all those, you know, Genesis has has tripped over itself a lot in the launch, which is unfortunate, because I think the products as you're absolutely right, the gvhd needed to come out a year ago, but it's here now. And they're doing a lot of good things. And I think though, I think as the word gets out, even more so. And because, you know, I think that amongst the automotive community, it is known that the GB, the G 7080. And even the 90 are all really, really good products, but they are sedans.

Dan Roth  48:50  
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's absolutely what it is, like, everything that Genesis is making is really well done. They just need to make sure they're making what customers are buying. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  49:01  
they're getting there. So Sam, what else about the Q seven?

Sam Abuelsamid  49:04  
Um, not much. I mean, you know, it's a it's a good luxury three row SUV, I think, you know, gets said all that needs to be said, Yeah, they in Europe, they do offer a version with a plug in hybrid powertrain, which is not available in North America. But, you know, I think it's, if you're looking for something, you know, in this class, I think it's it's absolutely worth considering. You know, and, but also, you know, take a really hard look at that gvhd when they start showing up and dealers near you, because I think that that is that's a an excellent alternative. Yeah. And like so many other segments. Now, you know, this is there are a plethora of amazing choices, you know, that it, it would it's hard to make a really bad choice and you know, it comes down to what do you like the look of and kind of like, what do you what do you like the feel of, you know, drive them See, because they, you know, there are variations, as we said, you know, this one's got a little more stately feel to it, then you know, then the gV 80, which feels a little more sporty, you know, and then you get things like the Lincoln aviator, and, you know, other, there's other stuff coming to market as well. So, you know, but you've got lots of options. And this is a good one.

Dan Roth  50:21  
Yeah, all right. Well, when you're looking to save money, I've been in the Hyundai venue. And it's a really good cheap little hatchback. And I know that they're positioning it as an crossover compact SUV or something. Fine. That's what you need to do to sleep at night. But it's it's just a little hatchback. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's, it's great. The, there's a lot of value in it. It's the one that I drove was the scls had the sunroof and, you know, all the all the accessories and, you know, climate control and the Hyundai infotainment it's pretty good. And it's, it's just, it's delightful. I was impressed with it. It's not not as refined as maybe some other choices. It was about $23,000 all in which is I think there again, that's that's a really good price for something that's got the tech that you want, and it's got a lot of the A das stuff as well with dynamic cruise control and all the sort of safety minders and Lane centering and that stuff so it had those features are moving down market, which is good because they're they're helpful. At the very least sort of Forward Collision Mitigation for collision warning is has proven I think the insurance industry will tell you like, we like that. It stops us having to pay out you know, I think it's a we're probably split on how it looks. I it's a little awkward and funky looking. in a way that's not as charming as like the Hyundai. I mean, the Yeah, the Kona which I like a lot better, but the Kona gives up some I think it gives up some rear seat. Rear Seat space. Yeah, the venue. Um,

Rebecca Lindland  52:17  
I think that venue is adorable.

Dan Roth  52:19  
Yeah. Well, you had to you had the denim right. I

Rebecca Lindland  52:22  
did. I had. Yeah. And the only issue with that was that there's no sunroof with the denim.

Dan Roth  52:27  
Oh, see, this is I remember talking about that. So yeah, I was impressed to find a sunroof in the car for 23 grand. I just

Rebecca Lindland  52:37  
felt nice. I think it is important to point out though, that I would not buy this vehicle without adding the premium package, which is 2350. That's the heated front seats, the LED headlights, the daytime running lights, here's probably must have had it might have had all Yeah, proximity key with push button start the eight, eight inch color touchscreen, Blue Link connected car heated outside mirrors and power sunroof. Yeah, that. Yeah, I just I think I think that from a, from a safety standpoint, especially if it's a younger driver, I think that this is really these some of these things are important to add?

Dan Roth  53:13  
Yeah, I think that's actually a big factor into how pleasant and sort of impressive The experience was. And it because otherwise, it's a it's a $19,000 vehicle, which is, okay. That's a great price. But you really, I think you do benefit from those things. At the very least, LED headlights, which are excellent. And that's, you know, that's something that I think a lot of people overlook. But these these had, you know, great, they were they were nice and bright, they had a great beam pattern. They, they had auto high beams and stuff. So again, like you're getting those features that had been the sort of realm of luxury cars not too long ago, and it's moving back down into everyday cars. And if they're helpful, it's useful. It's one sort of one less thing for especially like you point out like a new new driver to have to worry about it. It's sort of taking care of some of that stuff for ya.

Rebecca Lindland  54:06  
And we've talked about this before, this is one of my pet peeves is the proximity key, the idea that you can open your car and get safely into your car without having to get to dig out your keys, especially for women at night. You know, or anybody really, it's a convenience thing. But I do feel very strongly about not having, you know, we're distracted enough on our phones without then having to require to get into the vehicle with a key. So that's what this premium package also does.

Dan Roth  54:36  
Yeah, I think it's totally worth it. And it's a really good functional vehicle that you're going to use pretty much every aspect of it, you know, you're gonna use the cargo space, you're gonna put people in it, it's got decent rear seat space, but I do think your basketball team metaphor they'd be uncomfortable You know, but for people of lesser stature, it's not bad, you know, a parent and kids or you know, a bunch of younger folks. It's okay. Like, Jake,

Rebecca Lindland  55:13  
you know, Jake, was he and I were playing in it. And he's six one and he fit very comfortably in it. Yeah, he really? I know, he was primarily in the front seat, right.

Dan Roth  55:25  
Yeah, the front seat I think is great. But when you get that, that that backseat leg room

Rebecca Lindland  55:30  
Yeah, and it slopes the roof slopes back down a little bit in the back. Yeah.

Dan Roth  55:34  
But that's, I mean, not every car can be a long wheelbase car. You know. That is one of the challenges of this segment. It's not unique to the venue. I mean, I think the target a car, and Honda HRV are gonna also have those,

Rebecca Lindland  55:52  
those are even smaller. In the back though this car I think it's

Dan Roth  55:56  
jars are, like in a hole.

Sam Abuelsamid  56:00  
In a car. It's exaggerated because of the way the sheet metal is. You know, you're, you're basically you don't really have much outward visibility from the backseat of the car. Yeah, it kind of envelops you in metal and not good. Yeah, yeah. So

Dan Roth  56:15  
I think I think that, you know, one of the things that I liked about it, and it's not that the venue is a throwback, but it has all of those high points that made these these cars, I keep wanting to say like a small hatch, because that's really what it is. But it had all of the throwbacks or all of the of the high points that made those cars so popular in their time as well you know, good visibility, easy to load, good, good cargo space has a lot of a lot of features a lot of value. And it It drives pretty well. It doesn't feel premium when you are as refined maybe as some other cars in its class. But it's not offensive or course it just you know, there's there's some noise from the road there's some engine note there's a little bit of sort of you can you can hear this not it's not like rattles or clumps or anything but you know, this you know, this suspension is working on stuff you know, but it goes down the road with a little bit a little bit of love. It feels good to drive it lets you know what's going on. So I was I was impressed. You know, a lot of cars are, you know, they have sort of numb steering or you don't really know what's what's going on with the chassis when you get into the middle of a turns up. Now, this was actually fun to drive and fling around a little bit. So it really did it. It warms my heart that we still have cars that are like good basic cars that you can still enjoy yourself without having to buy like the Sport model or anything. So it's a simple car, and I think it it delights with simple pleasures. Like,

Sam Abuelsamid  58:01  
so let me ask you a question. Okay. So 23,000 at 19,000 you know, for the base venue, I think it's it's a no brainer. At 23,000 for an STL you're now encroaching on you know, the price, the price range for the Kona and Kona, Sal starts at 22 to not including delivery. So 23, roughly, with delivery. And, you know, for $23,000 for the Kona Sal versus a venue Sal, which one do you choose?

Dan Roth  58:36  
Me personally, I pick the Kona. But I don't think that there's anything wrong with the venue. I just like the conus style better and they both are about as friendly to drive. I don't think that there's a huge gap there.

Rebecca Lindland  58:51  
So one one question that I have looking at the Hyundai chart of available vehicles. So the venue has snow mode, the Kona has all wheel drive.

Sam Abuelsamid  59:03  
So what this snow mode is just it's a it's a different mode of the traction controls. Yeah,

Rebecca Lindland  59:09  
it's just a snowboard can help the driver to drive more effectively on slippery roads such as Yeah, your muddy and an all wheel drive it says just available and doesn't explain it. So I'm just curious. I mean, I think

Sam Abuelsamid  59:21  
venues front wheel drive only, so there's no all wheel drive available in the venue. Okay, where is the traction control?

Dan Roth  59:29  
Yeah, so typically snow snow mode. When you don't have all wheel drive, it starts you off in a higher gear when you're starting from a stop so that you limit the torque at the wheels, wheel spin down and it probably these days with electronic throttles, it probably smooths out some of those inputs as well. Gives you know backs off on the, the how aggressively it gives you give you throttle opening and stuff. It can be it can be helpful. I had snow mode in my 60s that I didn't use all the time. I'm

Rebecca Lindland  1:00:00  
okay. So that could be that could also be for people in scenario climbs. That could be a deciding factor that

Dan Roth  1:00:08  
I think either Yeah, I think if you want all wheel drive, you're not going to have it. But I think either of these few properly equipped them with winter tires. I didn't. I don't think you're gonna have a problem going anywhere with a set of Blizz X on this thing. Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:00:21  
front wheel drive vehicle with winter tires is always going to be an all wheel drive vehicle with all season tires at 305 days a year.

Unknown Speaker  1:00:31  
Yeah,

Dan Roth  1:00:32  
it's always me. I prefer a rear wheel drive car with winter. So he learned he learned how to drive in those conditions. But I think honestly, it's just the that's maybe the biggest differentiator right between the Kona and the venue is the all wheel drive availability for and and that sort of the, the attitude that they portray.

Rebecca Lindland  1:00:57  
Yeah. And of course, there's big difference in horsepower.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:00:59  
Yeah, the color. Yeah. Yeah, hundred 47 horsepower with the base two liter in the Kona versus 116. I think

Rebecca Lindland  1:01:09  
121 121 2021.

Dan Roth  1:01:12  
I mean, I yeah, you had to work it, but I didn't feel like it was down on par. I did when I was getting on, like on ramps and stuff we have, we have Eisenhower era highways here. Actually, when the maybe pre Eisenhower era. So there we have tight on ramps and some spots. And so you just you just put the pedal all the way down, and you wait, and you watch the mirrors, you merge. And it's it's fine. Because, you know, it didn't have any problem keeping up or merging or any of those things. I think we're we're very used to a lot of power. It's sad, but it was fine. It was it was plenty, it still got you know, 30 plus miles per gallon, even though you know, it gets canes like that. So that's that's the trade off, right? Do you want big power? Or do you want decent economy? and and you know, you have to plan a little in some situations, and it was it's fine. I think that the I wound up playing with the drive modes a little bit it. I wish I was wishing for an economy mode. Because usually I find that when I put cars in economy mode, it it backs off a little bit. And it just it's it's a smoother driving experience. So you don't get the head snapping back and stuff where they sometimes especially with cars or small engines, they make them feel very eager. Yeah, you could chill. Okay, good. Relax. I just want to coast right now. That's all. So I did miss that a little bit. Sport mode was interesting to fiddle with it. It basically just holds revs higher and doesn't make more makes more noise. Yeah, it makes it doesn't really do much else. Which is fine. I guess if revving The engine is sporty to the venue, because of its form. And its price versus its its equipment level. It's really, really competitive. You can decide whether you like the way it looks. And

Rebecca Lindland  1:03:08  
yeah, yeah, I think it's charming. And I think for that price, it's really good. And again, you know, it's you have to, you have to weigh the pros and cons. But I certainly would look at the Kona as well. But if that pricing pushes you just a little bit over, where, you know, I certainly remember being in that position where it's like, you know, what, an extra 50 or 75 or $100 a month is going to make a difference for me, then, I you know, I think that the venue is a really, really good option. And I think it's absolutely charming. I love the way it looks.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:03:39  
Yeah, and you know, among these these low end crossovers, you know, like the the Nissan Kicks the venue the car, you know, I think the the venue is probably my favorite of the three.

Rebecca Lindland  1:03:51  
Yeah, I do. I like the Buick Encore as well, the GX in particular. But yeah, they're really they're in a gray if you start to get into a lot more money, and so at this like 23 and, and lower. I think that this is a really, really competitive vehicle. Yeah,

Dan Roth  1:04:08  
yeah, I absolutely think it's it's well positioned. Yeah.

Rebecca Lindland  1:04:12  
Yeah. And I see quite a bit of them. I mean, I see it quite a few coronas as well. I think also, you know, if you're really into a tight spot, I think that the venue's a little bit smaller, too. It's taller instead, it's shorter and taller. So if you are, in fact in an urban environment, and you know, we ever get back to the

Sam Abuelsamid  1:04:34  
previous time where parking was at a premium. I, you know, that could be an issue again, as well. Yeah, looking at the October sales report from Monday, through the end of October, they sold 13,500, coronas versus 15 or sorry, 13,500 venues versus 59,300 conas. So, I think you know, it This, you know, I suspect that this year is somewhat of an anomaly, I think most of the most of the customers who are really looking right at the entry level of a new car, probably weren't buying much this year, you know, just because of what's been going on, you know, whereas those who could afford a little bit more, you know, probably going, you know, still going and getting a Kona. So, I think, you know, maybe 2021 will be a better a better tell as to its real popularity.

Rebecca Lindland  1:05:32  
And you know, what, sometimes to that they play around with production and and availability. You know, they want to push a certain vehicle, also, but yeah, it'll be interesting, but i think i think you know, for that price point, I think it's great.

Dan Roth  1:05:46  
Yeah, I agree. All right. Let's move on. We got some topics to hit up with. We talked about cars for a while we can podcast just

Rebecca Lindland  1:05:59  
go in. Yeah, my neighbor's cat surprisingly stopped by right at my room, which was why I was distracted for a moment earlier. She normally is on the back deck. This Yeah, she made a surprise appearance there.

Dan Roth  1:06:12  
Excellent. Do the cats have like a little their own coffee klatch?

Rebecca Lindland  1:06:16  
If they do not they have a What the hell are you doing on my property clash?

Dan Roth  1:06:22  
stare at each other from both sides. Yeah. And we have we have fat squirrels here and I've watched them get fat over the year, and if I send the dog out, he'll be like a missile. Like, sometimes he stands in the window and he's like, want to go play with the frilly thing. So let's let's talk stuff on our list. We've got the BMW ix story, which I Yikes. I tried it first. Good thing cuz it's the big story here is is the styling was what? got everybody talking like that the fact that it's probably a really good Eevee is sort of not what everybody focused on. I this thing is

Sam Abuelsamid  1:07:13  
well, to be fair, you know, when BMW revealed this thing earlier this week, they didn't really get into the the technology side of it very much the focus was on design, you know, when they did the reveal on Wednesday of this week, Wednesday morning, you know, the the press release is all about BMW ix design and the ix for those not familiar with it, this is the production version of what we saw as the next concept a couple of years ago. So this is BMW is next Eevee that they're launching but a year from now or middle of next year in Europe and then a few months later in North America you know, so it's it's a SUV, it's you know, looks like looks to be roughly the same size as an Audi e Tron so two row crossover you know, really more tall wagon than SUV you know, very similar proportions when you look at and profile to the E Tron. And, you know, they they had Adrian Van Dyck there you know, the head of BMW group design talking about this thing and various other people talking about the shape and what do you think Rebecca?

Rebecca Lindland  1:08:21  
The grill, I'm just gonna put the elephant in the room right on center. That grill is atrocious.

Dan Roth  1:08:34  
Well, that's just the start of it.

Rebecca Lindland  1:08:38  
No, it to me it. I mean, it is it's right. It's Bette Midler out of Hocus Pocus and I

Dan Roth  1:08:47  
know I can see it. Um, yeah, the the rest of it is not good either, though. I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on. And you know, usually with design you try to link the elements it's I I feel like busy design has really taken over to just even just regular cars, just lots of lines and strikes and vents and especially a BMW that the designs are not as clean and almost timeless, as they had been like this thing like what is going on with the lower portion of the the the facia where there's like these just these big black pieces there with like, different strikes in them and you know, you get back to the the C pillar and it's all it's really dumpy looking I I don't know it's like one of those Did you stand back and look at it

Rebecca Lindland  1:09:50  
it's uh Where's Where is Chris bangle when you need him most just gonna

Dan Roth  1:09:54  
bang you know bangle was controversial but Eric signs had They had a cohesion to them. There were some that I did not like that first bangles. Yes,

Rebecca Lindland  1:10:06  
absolutely the bangle, but Well, for sure.

Dan Roth  1:10:11  
It matured, you know, went through the the 90 the 60. All those cars look looked pretty good. And we're clean. This is not

Rebecca Lindland  1:10:22  
Yeah. And then when you get inside the seats, I hope those seats, our product our concept only because the way

Sam Abuelsamid  1:10:31  
this is the production

Rebecca Lindland  1:10:32  
does oh my gosh, the way that the headrest, so the headrest, it pushes your your it pushes your head like it, it prevents whiplash, which is fine, except that if you talk to any chiropractor, they will tell you that you basically like this vehicle doesn't let your head stand free. And if you put even the slightest amount of pressure on the back of your head, like right above your neck. Yeah, it engages your neck muscles. And when it engages your neck muscles, it's why a lot of people have a stiff neck because even the slightest pressure on the back of your head, your your neck muscles immediately tense up.

Dan Roth  1:11:14  
So yeah, I noticed that's one of the reasons why we actually stopped buying Volvo's was because, yes, they they had very excellent comfortable seats that were well designed and they had the whiplash protection. But there was no way to back that headrest, her head restraint angle off and I don't drive around resting my head on the thing I don't like I want my my head not to be messed with Damn it.

Rebecca Lindland  1:11:41  
And even in a lot of media cars we get, I will actually pop the headrest out, turn them around and put them back in. So that they're because a lot of them actually do that they pitch forward. Yeah, pitch forward. And when they pitch forward, and my chiropractor is so funny, she will rant at me for half an hour, especially if she's just had a client that's come in and needed to be adjusted. Because she the person's gotten a new car. And then when you add that in to with women, a lot of times if you have your hair well, fair enough, if you have a man with a man bun,

Dan Roth  1:12:11  
I don't know, that kind of cloth going on.

Rebecca Lindland  1:12:16  
I mean, God forbid you have a ponytail in the back, because then it just makes it even worse. So I looked at those seats and was like,

Dan Roth  1:12:24  
well, for the ponytail, right? If you have

Rebecca Lindland  1:12:28  
got this metal thing. Yeah. Like what is how is that gonna feel that?

Dan Roth  1:12:34  
Yeah, it's one of those things, you probably have to sit them to try them out. It may be high up enough that it doesn't actually mess with you. But I have a concern. And it leads to a weird posture. I noticed this. Like, I had to get comfortable with those fixed head restraints. I had to lean the seat back angle way back and just

Rebecca Lindland  1:12:58  
more engaging lumbar as much as possible. Yeah,

Dan Roth  1:13:00  
it's just a strange driving posture. And so yeah, that's, that's, I mean, that's an individual buyer kind of thing. Otherwise, the interior is almost the opposite of the exterior of ix it's, it's a lot more clean. And I love the material choice. It looks like it's all cantera which is is nice, pretty and I like the minimalism other than the fact that it's gonna push everything into a screen

Rebecca Lindland  1:13:25  
but you know what, they're looking at a close up of the I think that some of it is Alcantara. And then some of it looks like almost like a denim feel actually. Ah, so yeah, so there's a two tone version and that I'm looking at right now with the blue quilt and then there's

Dan Roth  1:13:46  
a suit almost Yeah,

Rebecca Lindland  1:13:47  
yeah, that was like a denim sort of situation.

Dan Roth  1:13:51  
Yeah. Or I love the we're moving into more different cloth choices. That was one of the things I was really impressed with with the Nissan Rogue was it's just a subtle thing it's not even that big a deal but they used a cloth trim Yeah, and the interior that just it was it was different and it caught your eye and it classy. Well that was one

Rebecca Lindland  1:14:12  
of the things I getting back to the Hyundai venue that we really liked in the in the denim version of it was the material was really cool. It was it was very modern feeling and not like a cheap vinyl. You know, I think we're really getting away from that usage, which is great. So I think there's high quality materials going on but yeah, this ix is it's gonna definitely be interesting. I the thing that bothers me too, is that we've talked about this before, like, I want an electric vehicle to just be normal. This is what the Kona did so well. You know, it's just it's just a power train option. It's not weird. And this definitely goes towards weird

Dan Roth  1:14:54  
if, if you're buying an Eevee a premium Evie Do you need it to be so Something that stands out so that people can see that you've got the phone. But

Rebecca Lindland  1:15:04  
I mean, look, the Audi e Tron, you know, has not been a huge success. I buy. I think there's that's for other reasons than the fact that it's not weird looking. It looks it looks like a Q six.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:15:17  
It's what i think i think i think it's struggled because it's ranges not as Yes, as it needs to be be competitive. Right. So

Dan Roth  1:15:24  
so they should just make up a range number. Nobody's gonna use it.

Rebecca Lindland  1:15:28  
I think I mean, that, you know, as we've talked about before, personality, and looks and personality both need to be there, especially in Eb, you've got to have the goods. I to be competitive. But I think that this i x, just it sort of, it's that throwback idea that you have to have something that looks weird. And I just don't think that's the case. I don't know. I test this don't look weird.

Dan Roth  1:15:56  
This is a cool. Some of them. Yeah, well, I mean, Krav, maga wise, you know?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:16:02  
Yeah, I think the front end is not particularly especially the model three of the model y is not the

Rebecca Lindland  1:16:10  
model three, that ninja turtle.

Dan Roth  1:16:12  
Yeah, but I take your point like that the Tesla's are, they are a much cleaner, more restrained design. Where this is, there's a lot of gingerbread here.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:16:24  
You know, to be fair, you know, I think a lot of what we're seeing in the design here is not necessarily BMW making it weird, because it's electric. I think this is this is consistent with the direction that BMW design has been going in the last couple of years, where they're just making it weird to be weird. You know, I mean, we've seen these massive grilles on the X seven on the, you know, the refresh seven series on the new four series, you know, they have these these humongous, ridiculous grilles. And it's, you know, it's just, it's absurd, you know, so I think it wouldn't really matter that it's electric. This is just the direction that BMW has decided to go with their design.

Rebecca Lindland  1:17:06  
Why it? Why that grill? How if this is like a Pontiac Aztek, how did anybody say that this was okay. And then when you put a license plate across it, I mean, this is just this is not okay.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:17:20  
No, absolutely not. But all I'm all I'm saying is that I think that this is a separate question from the fact that this is an electric vehicle. Yes. Yeah. This is this, you know, BMW has lost its way, I think, from a design perspective. And, you know, I mean, the rest of, you know, you know, that's the sides of the thing, the sides of the next day IX, you know, I'm actually, you know, I think, I think it's less of an issue than the front end, you know, it's, it's got smoother flanks. You know, it doesn't have some of the sculpting that we've seen on other, you know, does BMW designs over the last five or 10 years, you know, it's more flattened up? You know, I think they're, they're trying to go for an arrow thing here. But it's, it's less offensive than that faces.

Dan Roth  1:18:09  
Yeah, I just just weirdness, you know, there's no, I guess the x three didn't have it, either. But there's really no Hofmeister kink, which is fine. Like, it just was one of those defining BMW things. It just it looks. It looks heavy, you know, there's a lot of visual mass, especially towards the, you know, the B and C, do I guess D pillars that like it just, I don't know, it's not. It's not sort of a classically beautiful, but everybody's a critic so fine. I'll let them sell their ugly car.

Rebecca Lindland  1:18:53  
Actually, the back, I think it's kind of clever. They've done this emphasis where exhaust pipes ordinarily would be, and they've kind of balanced it out. So I like, it looks like there might be, I don't know, there's two little notches, maybe sensors or something there. But they've kind of they've outlined them in this blue, and I'll be curious to see what the material is on that. But it also kind of makes me wonder in a crash test in a rear crash test, what is this thing going to look like? It doesn't really have like, it's all one piece back there. So I think repairs could be very expensive in this because there's no real traditional bumper and

Sam Abuelsamid  1:19:33  
it although the bumper structure is all underneath, so it's probably you know, one big piece of plastic, right? Yeah, you know, a cover and then the structure is beneath that. So, you know, I don't think that that's necessarily going to be any more of a problem that would be for any other any other

Rebecca Lindland  1:19:47  
but I think I like I like those that blue kind of emphasis. I think it adds some, it adds dimension to what may ordinarily be just a big piece of black plastic. So I like the tires on it,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:20:02  
you know the red one, if you look at the photos of the red one, they have a completely different kind of look on that one. Okay,

Dan Roth  1:20:09  
I bet at the red light, it lacks the veteran has like black extra black trim. There's like this this black out black band actually that goes from the the front facia, there's a large area of it's almost like gloss black highlight, and then it wraps around and goes all the way down the sills and then wraps around to the back and sort of mirrors the front there's there's a larger area in the rear facia, that is a sort of black accent as well. So it, you know, it that provides its own sort of motion and movement to the design that, you know, it's interesting and it's looking at it, I think that our initial impression is going to be sort of a little bit of shock and surprise, and the things that I don't like about it, don't think you're going to go away, I think the more we look at it, the more we're going to find elements that show clear forethought and will help us understand their design language they're trying to establish here, it is always controversial. When you have such a strong design language, and you try to depart from that, you know, I was the problem that they had with with with bangles stuff as well initially was they had really gone as far as they could go with the very, you know, linear, kind of classically refined BMW look that had had been out there since I mean, since the nyclass. Really, right, since the 2002. Yeah. And they took that to its logical end. And then the that first bangle seven was like a, like a record scratch. And then, you know, they worked on it, they got, we got used to it, and now you look at something like it like an East 65 series. And it doesn't, it doesn't shock you anymore, you know. And so that's, that's sort of what happens with design, you know, we push it in different places, and then it becomes normal.

Rebecca Lindland  1:22:17  
I don't think that grill will ever be normal.

Dan Roth  1:22:19  
Yeah, and when the grill is like, I get that it's their signature, and it right now like there's not, there's not enough stuff to need cooling in this. So it's just basically a big thing for sensors, which is like fine, okay, and it's a BMW,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:22:34  
except there's not even much in the way of sensors in there. I mean, it's mostly Yeah, like off the sensors. Yeah. Cuz this, this is gonna be BMW is first model with their level three, partial automated system. You know, it's got LIDAR. And the LIDAR is actually mounted up behind the windshield. Yeah,

Dan Roth  1:22:50  
well, that's right, because LIDAR needs that higher sort of line of sight to right.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:22:53  
Well, not necessarily, it depends on what you're doing. But, you know, in this particular case, they're mounting it up behind the windshield. And, you know, so none of that stuff is gonna be out front, you know, in part, you know, because expensive components like that you don't necessarily want to probably avoid, you know, putting him in the crash, though. You know,

Dan Roth  1:23:13  
you don't want to make them the thing that gets like banged off a berm or something. Exactly. Um, yeah. Go ahead.

Rebecca Lindland  1:23:22  
You have LIDAR I didn't know if we wanted to get off of this. Because anytime that I would not look at this vehicle is a good day.

Dan Roth  1:23:30  
You did you look at the console inside though the way they've crystal Volvo and redesign the shift quadrant and

Rebecca Lindland  1:23:38  
I think that the interior is lovely to your point. I think it's, it's simplistic they, they do have a lot of crystal going on. I think it's actually stunning. I think the interior is really, really cool.

Dan Roth  1:23:47  
It has a place for your phone, right

Sam Abuelsamid  1:23:49  
there. I guess it's interesting evolution from what they did with the eye three, you know, which again, was fairly minimalist. And they stayed with that, with these pure electric vehicles and, you know, the ix is there's not going to be a gas or hybrid version of this, it's electric only, this is their new electric platform. This is you know, the underpinnings of this are also going to be used in the I four sedan and then various other stuff. So you know, that they're going with this simplified design for their electrics, you know, just a simple panel that's floating out there, you know, in front of the driver with the instrument cluster in front of you and then a touchscreen, you know, 14 inch touchscreen off to the side. And you Yeah, the crystal knobs and things like that I think are interesting.

Dan Roth  1:24:37  
I think BMW BMW offers options like that with you can get the crystal or ceramic knob finishers and a lot of their cars now, maybe not crystal, but they they offer different options because apparently, you know, feels more luxurious when you touch. Ceramic than, than metal or plastic. I don't know.

Rebecca Lindland  1:24:58  
That's the ideal customer. For BMW,

Dan Roth  1:25:02  
I'm such a skeptic. It's like I, you know, I can look them like,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:25:06  
Well, why just give this man an old 2002? Ti,

Dan Roth  1:25:10  
I would be all set with a 2002 ti. Oh, my goodness, turbo lag. You can you can time with a sundial. She's.

Rebecca Lindland  1:25:21  
So I think our next topic is actually about LIDAR, though.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:25:25  
Yeah, yeah, it was been a number of interesting announcements in recent weeks, you know, for, for years, everybody's been talking about, you know, LIDAR is so insanely expensive, you know, because those, those first, you know, when we first saw the, you know, the DARPA challenge cars, and the, the early Google vehicles, you know, they had this spinning bucket on the roof, you know, that look kind of like a KFC chicken bucket, except except the spinning bucket cost $80,000. And, you know, everybody's been working diligently over the last decade to try to take that, that technology because basically, what LIDAR is, you know, you have a laser that sends out those two kinds, basically, the most of them use a laser pulses, and measures the time of flight from for it to reflect back off of an object. And, you know, you scan around the environment around the vehicle. And you've probably seen these point clouds of, you know, that that's the return. So every time that light pulse from the laser, bounces back and hits the detector, that's that, that generates another point, and you get this 3d map of the world around you. And those early rotating LIDAR sensors, you know, the lasers were expensive, the detectors were expensive, and the rotating mechanism was expensive. And now what we're starting to see come to market, our solid state LIDAR set, eliminate most if not all of the moving parts. You know, this ix is going to be the first production application from a company called innovyz. An Israeli startup, like many of these solid state, LIDAR SIRs uses a memes array of micro electromechanical system. So if you remember the days of projection TVs, you know, rear projection TVs,

Dan Roth  1:27:18  
DLP, DLP years,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:27:20  
yeah. The memes is basically the same idea, as the DLP so little, microscopic, little microscopic mirror that rotates and does the scans that tend to have the laser that sits still. And then the beam, it uses the mirror to scan the to steer the beam and scan the environment. You know, there's others that are pure solid state, like there's a company called ouster that is doing, you know, there and I bails another one. They're doing pure solid state. And this is actually what's on the iPhone, the new iPhone 12. And the the iPad pros that came out earlier this year. They have a solid state LIDAR sensor that uses a different kind of laser. That is cheaper, it's lower power, but it's cheaper. And there's no beam steering mechanism, it just have, you know, this array of laser emitters that illuminate the area, and then the sensors that pick up the reflections. And it was on a call, I was talking last week with somebody from ouster. And he was actually highlighting, you know, the fact that Apple is putting these LIDAR sensors in the same type of laser that they're using, it's called a pixel vertical cavity. Something I can't remember that full thing. Anyway, the vixa lasers, because Apple is now putting 10s of millions of these things in iPhones this year, that's expected to really start to drive down the cost because suppliers of the components are going to be scaling up. And so now all of a sudden, you know, we're going to have LIDAR sensors, instead of costing $80,000 cost a few hundred dollars or less, you know, in some cases, they're expected to be, you know, less than $200 $80,000 eight, yeah, those early velodyne sensors, those rooftop rotating sensors, they cost 80 grand. Well,

Dan Roth  1:29:18  
I mean, there's a there's a common sort of progression here, too. It's and it's not just like the, like velodyne realizing that they need to compete and, and just, they it's not like they were randomly charging 80 grand for the thing, it was a lot of sort of cost to build it. Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:29:41  
for sure. tronics they were adult

Dan Roth  1:29:44  
Yeah. And and you need to make a margin. So even at a you know, 10% margin, you know, it's still just an expensive piece of gear. So I hope they're making more than 10% margin but You know, to think about the best analog I can come up with is like watches, you know, you go from like a mechanical, purely mechanical wristwatch, that's just this expensive thing full of really, you know, close craftsmanship and technology. And it's expensive to do, you can only make it so cheap. And then you go to a digital watch, buy a $20 Timex, but it's actually more accurate, super durable, in and much cheaper to make. So it's just that's that is the march of progress.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:30:40  
Yeah, well, you know, you mentioned, you know, velodyne, you know, this week, they announced a new sensor, they called the Vela re h 800. And it's targeted at a price point of $500. And that, you know, that's, that's gonna be Valentine's cheapest sensor yet, you know, and there's others, you know, in that range, you know, various capabilities between 200 and, and $1,000. You know, there's a company called AI that actually has one that incorporates a camera in with the same thing. And but, you know, the big thing about this is with these sensors, these LIDAR sensors getting down into the hundreds of dollars, now, it starts to become practical, you know, to actually use these in vehicles. And so, Elon Musk's argument that LIDAR, you know, is a fool's errand. It's a crutch, you know, for anybody developing automated driving, starts to evaporate, because all of a sudden, you know, you're not spending thousands of dollars on these sensors, you're down to hundreds of dollars. And, you know, probably, by the middle of the decade, you know, we'll start to see some that are under $100, for some of the flash LIDAR sensors, and that's a good thing, because that's going to help, you know, one of the things we're seeing, even though highly automated driving is taking a lot longer to mature than they thought it would a few years ago, what we're seeing is companies actually starting to incorporate LIDAR, with their lower level, Driver Assist systems. And so some of these flashlight hours, you're going to start seeing those showing up with, you know, pedestrian, pedestrian detection and automatic emergency braking systems. You know, as you start to get those down to $100 price point, you're going to see these things in mainstream cars that don't have automated driving capability. But just as a safety thing, because one of the one of the problems with camera systems is it's hard to measure distance work from a kit from a 2d camera image. But a LIDAR can measure that distance really, really accurately. You know, down to

Rebecca Lindland  1:32:37  
very, very quickly,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:32:39  
very quickly. And so you know, the combination at the speed of light, yeah, the combination of you know, LIDAR and camera, you know, the camera can help you classify what's in that image. And the LIDAR can tell you exactly where it is how far away it is. So I think, you know, this is gonna be really important for improving safety of all vehicles over the come over the coming decade.

Dan Roth  1:33:01  
I'm looking forward to LIDAR, enabling lots of terrible decisions about when to when to just sleep.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:33:10  
Yeah. That that'll be a while.

Unknown Speaker  1:33:13  
Oh, my gosh, you're so scared

Dan Roth  1:33:16  
to climb into the backseat car seems to have it under control. You

Sam Abuelsamid  1:33:19  
can do that without LIDAR and a Tesla, right? Isn't that what that's what they tell us? Right?

Rebecca Lindland  1:33:24  
You need to spend some time in sunny, Sunny, positive California. Damn

Dan Roth  1:33:28  
me. So the last time I was in California was in LA like right before Christmas. And it was it was weird. Because it like it was Christmas and people had Christmas lights up and stuff. And it was 70 degrees. Yeah, it was I mean, it was it was lovely. We didn't go very far. We're shooting interviews in. Not Silverlake, right next to Silver Lake. But just sort of a

Rebecca Lindland  1:33:54  
core buying area.

Dan Roth  1:33:56  
Yeah. It was it was nice. It's lovely. Had some some really good Mexican food.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:34:06  
So we had one other Evie that debuted this week, the the Ford Transit, which is not as exciting as the ix or the, you know, certainly not as controversial looking as the IX and

Dan Roth  1:34:18  
I think it's way more exciting now. Yeah, well,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:34:21  
not not as exciting to look at, you know, or maybe to drive as you know, the Mustang Maki, which will be driving very, very, very soon. But but

Dan Roth  1:34:30  
they could make a superfan version of it to your fans.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:34:33  
Oh, yeah, that would be awesome. But you know, what I think what's interesting about Ford's approach to electric vehicles in addition to the Maki, you know, their other two that they've announced so far, and it's going to be more, you know, unlike, you know, GM, you know, doing $115,000 Hummer super pickup, you know, Ford's actually going after customers that could really get value out of a out of an electric vehicle, you know, So they're out there. Next one after the Maki is going to be the transit, you know, which is their big cargo van, you know, battery electric, you know, 126 mile range, you know, and they said, you know, from there, they, you know, one of the things Ford does, you know, in their commercial vehicles, you know, they've got, like more than 50% of the commercial vehicle market in the US. And the transit is the best selling cargo van in the world. So, they, you know, they said, you know, from, from the telematics data that they're able to collect, you know, from their customers, that, you know, the average, or the typical daily use of, you know, transit is less than 76 miles 70,

Rebecca Lindland  1:35:44  
I think 74. But that's very surprising to me, because I, I hesitated when I saw that. I was 26, I thought, wow, is that enough? But I think that's really, really interesting that they've called that out, to say, 74 mile, that's amazing.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:36:00  
Yeah, well, you know, if you think about it, you think about the way these things are used, you know, in a lot of cases, you know, these things, the reason people go for something like a transit is they need that payload capability, you know, they carry, you know, whether it's a plumber carrying their tools, or parts, or an electrician or florist, you need that space, and, and, and wait capability for all the racks, and the toolboxes and all the other stuff they have in the back of these vans. And, you know, batteries are heavy, you know, the 67 kilowatt hour battery that's going in the transit, that's probably going to be about, you know, 800, somewhere between eight and 900 pounds. If you wanted to have a 200 mile range in there, now you're looking at a 90 to 100 kilowatt hour battery, that's probably going to be another, you know, up to about 14 1500 pounds for the just for the battery, that's 600 pounds of payload that you're taking away that the transit user probably doesn't want to give up. So what they've, what they've got is they've got a nice balance here, where this E transit has enough range for most of the use cases, for these vans, and it also has pretty close to the same payload capability as the gas engine version. So, you know, you're not really sacrificing anything, and you're gonna, you know, these customers are going to get a lot lower operating costs. And, you know, they'll, you know, they'll be able to charge it at night or work wherever they are. So I think I think that it's a really smart choice, you know, because they're not selling these to average consumers, you know, the right, people aren't gonna be taking road trips in these things. And that's, this is for a different customer. And so they're, they're really tuning it for the customer that that is using this vehicle.

Rebecca Lindland  1:37:45  
I love this application, I think it's great. And I think they've done a really nice job with it, they've, you know, it's in three different sizes. I mean, one of the things we've talked about before is, you know, like, like UPS or FedEx, they often you know, they all return to the same place at night. And so if they can go for a good portion of the day, and even if they can, even if they need to stop to charge, you know, the high speed charging is, you know, 45 miles in in 15 minutes is the estimate, that's a coffee break, you know, and you can recharge for 45 miles. I mean, that's really some of these numbers are really, really impressive. And so I think this is a fantastic use. It's one of the things that I love about this is it, it normalizes an electric vehicle. And you can you know if I mean, I know it's going to shock people, but I actually do know my FedEx and Amazon delivery guy send ups. It's my mailman, they all stopped for snacks and like in my little outdoor cooler, but you know, talking to them, you can talk to your guy or girl about what is it like to drive this thing and it's that neighborhood effect. You know, that all of a sudden, it's like, oh, well, my, my, you know, local or my, my contractor has shown up in with an electric vehicle and I get a chance to talk to him or her about it. I think that's really cool. more of those conversations need to happen to get even to the point where people don't think they're weird anymore that they are just in a power train alternative.

Dan Roth  1:39:15  
Well at Ford has been really aggressive about serving their their fleet and commercial customers. Yeah, it looks to me like they they stopped at some point and thought to themselves, where are we selling vehicles? Where do we have a strong market? Where do we get repeat customers and it's definitely in fleets and commercial. And they really serve that market very well and did the attractiveness to a fleet customer who's turning over their vehicles on a regular basis so they could even lease these without much of an issue. They they're going to be less maintenance, you know, you don't have any of the gas engine stuff to maintain. They estimate 40% lower maintenance costs over the life of the vehicle and your fuel costs. Like your fuel cost is at least I mean, it's half. Right, from what I've sort of seen looking at Evie, charging costs versus, you know, fueling at the pump. It's it's about half or less.

Rebecca Lindland  1:40:14  
And it also, I, it shields you from variations in our gas prices, our gas prices have been pretty low. They can spike up at any time you don't know, you know what world events,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:40:26  
electricity prices tend to stay a lot more stable.

Rebecca Lindland  1:40:28  
Right. Yeah.

Dan Roth  1:40:30  
The UK a little bit more warning when they go off. Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, you could do stuff like, Okay, if you pair this together with a, you know, a solar installation, all of a sudden, you know, you're becoming very efficient, you do have to invest a little upfront. But once you make that transition to an Eevee, fleet, you know, a there's a large base, I think of buyers that will will go for these.

Rebecca Lindland  1:40:52  
Yeah. And they're quiet, you know, they're basically silent. I mean, there's a lot I love this strategy. I think this is fantastic for for to do this.

Dan Roth  1:40:59  
Yeah. Yeah. And, like, as a consumer, it gets the technology out there in the market. You know, it's almost like endurance racing every day. Like it's going to improve ease for all of us. Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:41:09  
exactly. You know, Jim Farley, you know, he really recognizes the importance of the commercial vehicle market for Ford. You know, when I interviewed him last year, and I'll include a link to that episode, in the show notes for this one, you know, he talked a lot about, you know, the importance of commercial vehicles to Ford, you know, broadly as a whole as a company, you know, but, you know, with electrification and automated driving, you know, why, you know why that's a target the real important target market for for Ford, and I think I think it's a really smart move. Yeah,

Rebecca Lindland  1:41:44  
I love that setting is fantastic.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:41:48  
We got a couple of quick listener questions. So first one for Dan from Jeff Don's Bach. Dan, you don't have an icon for us this week. Do one bloom by me this morning on I 90 North right around the Walmart exit. I thought it was a Panamera coming up in my rearview mirror at first. I bet it was the only one around I bet it was the only one around that realized it was an Eevee unmistakeably, a Porsche.

Dan Roth  1:42:09  
I 190 North around. Wow. Okay. So welcome to lemon sir. No, that's not me. Unfortunately, I don't get that many Porsches to drive. I would love to drive a tie con for us, though. That's a pretty good time.

Rebecca Lindland  1:42:28  
I did finally see one here in Greenwich. Somebody has a white one with black rims. And I actually saw it three times in a single day. I was like, Oh my gosh, and it's gorgeous. I

Dan Roth  1:42:37  
mean, it's just

Rebecca Lindland  1:42:38  
absolutely fabulous. But clearly they were running the same errands that I was for some reason? Because I think I literally saw it three times in one day.

Dan Roth  1:42:47  
Are you like, are you evil Rebecca? And there's like, good Rebecca.

Unknown Speaker  1:42:52  
No, it was really funny. Like, wait, that's

Rebecca Lindland  1:42:54  
the same car? I say. Yeah. So it's, it's stunning on the road. I mean, I went to the event when they were launching it. And it's so cool. It's really it's a great looking vehicle.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:43:04  
Yeah. All right. From Randy Hyman. In your review of the Audi s5, which was I think about three weeks or four weeks ago. You speculated that people wouldn't cross shop them with the Kia stinger. I'm absolutely crush shopping them against the stinger. I love the look of the s5 hatchback. But long term commitments to a German sports sedan make me nervous. kiya seems like it is competitive on paper, but also seems risky due to perceived quality issues over the long run. I would love to hear your take on side by side comparison for long term ownership of each one. Also, I've always purchased and never leased. Maybe these are better leases. Keep up good work. Thank you, Randy. Any thoughts? Well, I

Rebecca Lindland  1:43:47  
you know, it's interesting, because this question is very timely, because we have talked in this episode about leasing and about Hyundai and Kia. And I don't know that there is reliability issues, though. Or quality issues with the new Kia stinger. I think that Kay's done a really good job of addressing some of those. I don't know that they ever really had them. I mean, they from maybe a long time ago,

Dan Roth  1:44:12  
but they had some early issues. I think if you read some of the the long term tests with some of the magazines

Rebecca Lindland  1:44:19  
on the stinger,

Dan Roth  1:44:20  
yeah. Oh god, this, the stinger had some issues. But they're again, they're probably like you say resolved a bit.

Rebecca Lindland  1:44:27  
It's certainly going to be cheaper to fix. Oh, yeah. And Audi s5 over the long term. So that's something to keep in mind.

Dan Roth  1:44:34  
Well, I mean, I think we've all had experiences with European and German cars, premium ones,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:44:41  
or even less common ones, right?

Dan Roth  1:44:44  
Where Yeah, ownership wise, they can be expensive and failure prone. The reputation that that key is sure to fighting an uphill battle on is that they were just cheap disposable cars, and also Yeah, they had this reputation for, for being not good cars or being unreliable. And I don't know that that was ever actually accurate. It's just people think that cheap cars are crappy cars, and they're, they're just cheap cars, you know, they have always seemed to be decently reliable, there's just been other issues with with an inexpensive car and and, you know, there's only so much neglect any car will will sort of take and cheap cars tend to get neglected a lot but the stinger is still going to have that, that brand perception to get over. And then the dealer experience and those are two variables the brand perception is something you can kind of ignore the dealer experience is going to vary a lot depending on your particular dealer

Rebecca Lindland  1:45:48  
dealership and and the cost of ownership. So if you you know, I think that if if Randy typically purchases, I do think that I vehicle like the stinger can rise above the brand perception like Subaru is not known for performance cars, but the GBR x rises above that. So I think that the stinger is one of those vehicles that probably will keep its value better than a typical key might, again, just residual valued standpoint may be my time at KBB makes me very conscious of that. But I but I think that from the cost of ownership experience, I would certainly look at those two vehicles, and you're going to have a very different Cost of Ownership experience would be my guess.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:46:33  
Yeah, I agree. I think I think, you know, kit. Yeah, I wouldn't be too overly concerned about quality issues with Kenya, you know, that, if, if you look at their results, you know, and JD Power over the last several years, you know, they've really come a long way. And, you know, they're they're at or near the top, consistently every year, both for, you know, their, their long term durability and their initial quality, you know, most new cars, you know, have some teething issues early on in the run. And I think that may be may have been the case with some of the early stingers. But, you know, generally, you know, it's, you know, it, this stuff that's in a stinger is probably going to be cheaper to fix if it does need fixing over the long haul. And I think as long as you, you know, do the necessary maintenance and you know, keep it up, you know, do the upkeep. I don't think I wouldn't expect you're going to have any notable problems with a stinger. And you know, if you'd like to Stinger and I certainly do it's great car. You know, it's it's absolutely worth considering, you know, obviously Kia doesn't have the brand reputation of an Audi. And, you know, that's, that's to the positive when it comes to pricing, you know, standard is probably going to cost you a lot less than an s5 Sportback, and you know that those long term things if you know, the repairs that you do have to make are almost certainly going to be dramatically cheaper from a Kia dealer than they will be from an Audi dealer.

Dan Roth  1:48:00  
Yeah, absolutely. Your labor rates likely to be lost. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  1:48:06  
At least Yeah. Yeah, I

Dan Roth  1:48:08  
mean, I don't know, if you're buying newer used, you know, it's definitely not going to hang on to its residual value like the Audi will. So that works in your favor, and that you can get a better deal, but it also sort of works against you. If you're looking to hang on to any kind of resale if you just want to use it up and wear it out. It doesn't matter. So just buy for, you know, what's a good deal and it's going to be a good car. Yeah, I quite liked the stinger. I like the G 70. Better, but I liked the stinger.

Rebecca Lindland  1:48:37  
I haven't driven it.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:48:39  
You haven't driven the stair? Oh,

Rebecca Lindland  1:48:41  
no. I have very little access to kiya for some reason in this neighbor in this drive shop has the Hyundai account, but they don't have kita.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:48:48  
Yeah, they went over the navs a few years ago. Yeah. So talk to them.

Dan Roth  1:48:52  
Cool. Wasn't that isn't that up here? Peter snaps isn't he? Yes. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Good. Like, good. French cigarettes. Like some gal can't get them anymore. All right. Well, I think that's a that's almost two hours. We should stop. Yeah, let's get to like lunchtime. I'm kind of hungry. Yeah, me too. Oh, my gosh, this is this is better than church though. Yeah. for Sunday morning podcast. So thanks, everybody, for listening. You know where to find us? We did we launched a Patreon. We're working on putting all kinds of that stuff together. So there's, there's more coming. What I would really love to hear is sort of feedback about what kind of extras you might be interested in. Like, if we were to do a video you could see my lovely bedhead today, but you can't so if that's something that's intriguing, you know, the sort of uncut episodes or something, you know, let us know what what you might be interested in us doing an offering for the Patreon And we'll get that underway so that we can all roll around and filthy Luker. So yep, kick hit us up at feedback at wheel bearings dot media and otherwise we'll see you next time.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:50:12  
Bye bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai