Dan Roth  0:01  
Coming up on episode 175 of wheel bearings, were driving the 2020 and 2021 lexus ls 500 in F SPORT and standard flavors, the 2021 Kia Sorento hybrid and Chevrolet Trailblazer. In the news we talked about rumors of Apple getting into cars, and we finish up by answering a lot of your questions. That's all I had on episode 175 of wheel bearings.

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Dan Roth  1:30  
Did you know you can support wheel bearings directly head to patreon.com slash wheel bearings media and you can become a patron today. Your contributions will help fund the platforms and tools we use to bring the podcast to you. And exclusives and improvements are already on the way thanks to your generosity. So if you want to be a part of an automotive podcast, like no other had to patreon.com slash wheel bearings, media

This is wheel bearings. I'm Dan Roth from Forbes.

Rebecca Lindland  2:03  
I'm Rebecca Lindland from Rebecca drives.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:05  
And I am Sam Abuelsamid from guidehouse Insights 

Dan Roth  2:09  
This may be the last one of the year. This may be the last episode of 2020 the last

Rebecca Lindland  2:15  
episode just the last episode or 2020

Dan Roth  2:18  
right not the last episode especially not because you know we have some some Patreon supporters. We got a couple more over the the holiday so you know that that seems to be going well. And thank you everybody for supporting us we are we're up it's been successful more beyond my beyond my imagination in such a short time. So I think Nathan and john are the two newest patrons and I think everybody has also noticed that we've got some advertising running so yeah, we're we're trying to make this actually like a business and make it work. But it does it funds the you know, we pay for the domain and some other you know, we pay for hosting costs in hosting and transcripts and all those things. So it's it's gonna make it a better show. Especially as we really put our noses to it in 2021 But enough about that. We have a short garage segment this week, because I'm still driving this thing. So Who's going first Rebecca you go in first? Sure.

Rebecca Lindland  3:27  
I can go first.

Dan Roth  3:28  
Okay, Alexa, you had a couple of lexuses they gave you a at your garage into your their garage or driveway

Sam Abuelsamid  3:35  
show confirmation on what is plural of Lexus

Dan Roth  3:38  
I so with my rudimentary understanding of

Sam Abuelsamid  3:43  
Latin dive right into a rat hole.

Dan Roth  3:49  
Lex, I would be a single Lexus, right for Lexus is plural. Really? I think so.

Sam Abuelsamid  3:58  
Okay. Hi, thanks. linguist, so I don't know.

Rebecca Lindland  4:03  
Yes, but but if we have one in our audience, we would love to hear from them. Yes. Excellent. Audience comment so we'll put that on on Twitter. So I did have I had a pair of Lexus sedans have that nice avoiding it altogether. And this was actually by design. So Lexus wanted me to drive the first I had the 2020 Lexus LS F SPORT all wheel drive, which is the really cool tarted up version of the Lexus large sedan and this sedan is bigger, weighs almost 5000 pounds. It's a heavy, you know very kind of elegant design. And it had a lot of the bells and whistles, not all of them, but a lot of them. This one starts at about $85,000 I and then you can turn it up to almost $90,000 which is what the one that I had. The things that make a difference difference. So it's got a 3.5 liter, V six engine in it 10 speed, automatic 416 horsepower. And as I said, this one was all wheel drive, this is a rear wheel drive based vehicle. But the one that I had was all wheel drive. And so I was really pretty psyched to get this because I, I struggle a lot with Lexus, sometimes they're the ride and handling just is not as emotional as I wanted it as I want it to be. And, you know, this one is definitely engaging and fun, it's still just a little bit on this dodgy side, I didn't feel like I could throw it into the corners as much as I would want to. But again, it's a big sedan.

Sam Abuelsamid  5:45  
So physics ultimately is going to take over.

Rebecca Lindland  5:47  
Yes, exactly. So you know, but but overall, it was, you know, it's got some great upgraded brakes on it, I, you know, it's 20 inch tires. So it's got some good dynamics to it, it just, it's I you know, it's quiet. And there's a lot of things really well on the road, but it's just not the most engaging that I would ever want. I also find it very, switching into the different modes. So when you when if you're in the driver's seat, the the switch that you toggle is in this really awkward position, where it's all like the like behind the steering wheel, kind of tucked up in the corner, almost like a third year on this car. And I always have to look for it, I'm like, Where is that thing. And I wish that they would just make that a little bit more ergonomically friendly, because it's very awkward. And then you have to kind of look and see which you know which gear which mode you're going into. So that's just like a economics kind of issue that I have with, with when Lexus has this kind of setup to it. But you know, overall, I feel like the design, it was in 2018 that they redesigned it, I felt like it was a it's aging a little bit. There's a lot going on in the interior, although they've done a nice job of upgrading it. So there's a lot of leather, there's a real aluminum, everything is very authentic, there's nothing cheap about the interior, there's a lot of top stitching, what there's, it's, it's almost like they're trying to embed the emotional design in the interior. And I'd rather have a little bit stiffer suspension, I'd rather feel the road a little bit more. This is just for the sport, I'm not talking about the because then I had the 2021 lS 500 just rear wheel drive. But if you're going to tell me that it's an F SPORT, you're going to put these bigger brakes on it, you're going to give me a variable suspension, I want it to be a little bit more engaging than it's been and just a little bit stiffer, a little bit more revving. And just you know, a little tighter steering, like I kind of just wanted everything to be a little bit more than it turned out to be.

Dan Roth  8:01  
Well, you know, I think one of the things that makes it feel a little less engaging is they've moved to that twin turbo V six. Yeah, instead of the the V eight and the power delivery of it is really good that you know, the engine has a really, you know, outstandingly flat torque curve, and it's got plenty of power. But you missed that, that sensation of the V. You know,

Rebecca Lindland  8:24  
other people send it in, though. Yeah, I know.

Sam Abuelsamid  8:28  
It's possible to you know, to get that visceral excitement, you know, from a twin turbo V six, maybe just go along with the, the, the power generation. Yeah,

Rebecca Lindland  8:41  
yeah. So I just, you know, and so that and then the next week, then they delivered the 2021. And again, not F SPORT, but just the, just the regular, it's the exact same engine, but without the variable suspension. I without the bigger brakes, you know, and this was definitely less emotional. possible. I mean, again, this was no, this was a very elegant sedan. It's incredibly quiet. It's very, very smooth, you know, that you're in an expensive vehicle. This thing started actually. So the one that I had started at 76,000. Mine was tricked out to almost 90,000 and it can go up to $105,000.

Dan Roth  9:34  
Which is impressive. I mean, it's, it's an S Class competitor, right.

Sam Abuelsamid  9:39  
You know, that's actually, you know, when you compare it to, you know, those top end big luxury sedans, like an S Class or seven series, that's, that's actually pretty reasonable. And I remember back in like 2008 or nine when the original Ls 600 h hybrid version came on, you know, 10 1112 years ago, that thing was like $115,000. back then. So you know 105 now actually

Dan Roth  10:11  
what a bargain.

Rebecca Lindland  10:13  
So one of the things I do wish, you know, like the Lexus safety system on this with enhanced radar, radar cruise control lane changes says from cross traffic and pedestrian alert, that's a $3,000 option. I feel like that should be included, like,

Dan Roth  10:29  
standard especially like isn't that the same as Toyota Safety Sense plus the third one of their cars? Well, wait,

Sam Abuelsamid  10:36  
what what features Did you say we're at Rebecca

Rebecca Lindland  10:38  
enhanced all all speed dynamic radar cruise control, and lane change assist, and then front cross traffic alert and pedestrian alert.

Sam Abuelsamid  10:46  
So yeah, really the only thing there the the front cross traffic alert and pedestrian alert. You know, that's, you know, the cross traffic is probably got front corner. I think it's got front corner radar sensors,

Rebecca Lindland  10:58  
right.

Sam Abuelsamid  10:58  
So that's, that's the thing that's different. You know, like you said down that the, the adaptive cruise control. Now it's might be an enhanced version of adaptive cruise control. It's also using those front corner radar sensors to detect cut ins and backing off Yeah, for sure. Trying to cut in front of you. Right. But still three grand for that is a lot.

Rebecca Lindland  11:21  
And then they nickel and dime you with like $220 for windshield wiper de ICER enhanced heater, and headlamp washers. Now I get that, you know, not everyone lives in a place that where you're going to need a de ICER. But I can it just seems kind of nickel and diming. Me? I don't know, I just

Unknown Speaker  11:41  
$400 here again. Today air. So

Sam Abuelsamid  11:44  
annoying. The premium, the high end premium segments like that nickel and diming? Is that's the way it's typically done. I mean, when you look at all your BMW, they do the same kind of nonsense.

Rebecca Lindland  11:58  
Nonsense. Yeah, I think that's

Dan Roth  12:00  
Yeah, I was gonna say I think nonsense is accurate, like, features like, heated de ICER, like heated washer fluid like that doesn't really help you unless you want to put more thermal stress on the windshield and crack it. Like, it's just, you know, these just seem like things to have on the car as conversation pieces. You know, like a lot of it's not really, not really necessary. But you know, I'm not that premium, large sedan luxury car buyer, who goes to parties and wants to talk about those features as well. And

Rebecca Lindland  12:39  
I would imagine that, you know, to a typical buyer there is they, they're not going to have to check those boxes, I would imagine that, you know, based on where you're located, the dealer is going to check this thing out for you. There's a lot of textures to the interior, just like there are to the exterior. And, and there's just a lot going on. For me, I prefer a little bit cleaner, sort of although esque kind of feel. But that's just personality. I mean, that's just a personal preference. But you know, overall, it was, you know, it was a large luxury vehicle.

Unknown Speaker  13:13  
That's what it does.

Rebecca Lindland  13:15  
So this one actually The 2021 offers Android Auto The 2020 does not. So that one that is a significant improvement with the overall awful entune system. I also did love the gear shift, I felt like, you know, I'm very picky about these things. So I'll stop bitching about

Dan Roth  13:33  
what is their gear?

Sam Abuelsamid  13:35  
We're having

Dan Roth  13:37  
done like another reimagining of the convention.

Rebecca Lindland  13:41  
No, no, it's just that you gotta like, I felt like I needed to look down every time to make sure that I was putting it in Drive. You can shift it over from manual mode if you want to use the paddle shifters. But I just didn't i didn't love the feel of it. But again, I think that's a personal preference for me that I just am not crazy. It says some some of the aerodynamics were the ergonomics, rather, were not my favorite in this, but it may not be something that bothers everybody.

Dan Roth  14:10  
But yeah, stuff that bothers you,

Rebecca Lindland  14:12  
bothers me.

Sam Abuelsamid  14:15  
Over here, it has one of these electronic shifters, that it's an electronic switch. It's not a mechanical shifter. So it's not just right, forward and back. It's the kind of thing that, you know, we've seen variations on this and, you know, in hybrid vehicles for for many years, and it is, you know, not always obvious, you know exactly where you're supposed to shift it because it you know, it's it doesn't have a large range of range of motion. And it always returns back to this center point. that a lot. A lot of vehicles have that a lot of modern vehicles have this kind of shifter and it and that's actually one of the things I do like about the rotary shifters. You know, is At least it's clear, you know exactly where you're supposed to be going. Because there is a more, you know, there, there's only thing you can twist it, that's it. And this thing you can kind of you can go forward and back and side to side. And it, it's, it's less than obvious what is the right thing to do. And you do have to pay more attention when you're when you're putting it in gear.

Rebecca Lindland  15:21  
Right. But I will say, so my brother Larry's visiting from California, and he is six foot three. And he fit in it really well, which was great, because he doesn't fit in, he tried to get into. I had a Mazda Miata as well, which we'll talk about next week. But he tried to get into that. And that was not happening for. But, you know, this, I will say, I mean, we're sort of the two extremes, right? I'm five feet tall, he's six foot three and a big guy. And, you know, he fit in it really, really well. So that's definitely a positive, this would be a vehicle that, you know, would be great from he has, he's had he had a Chrysler 300 for years. And part of it was because he could fit in it well and comfortably and get in and out of it easily. So you know, they're from that standpoint, again, it's a big sedan, it's, it's definitely has a very luxurious feel to it. I will be interested when they consider doing a refresh on the exterior, because I do think it's gotten a little bit higher.

Dan Roth  16:22  
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I would expect it in current fashion to pick up more lines and strikes and a bigger

Rebecca Lindland  16:29  
grille if possible.

So those are, that's my garage. I did like having him back to back. You know, that was I did like that, it was nice to have that, you know, the Compare and contrast,

Sam Abuelsamid  16:48  
especially when you've when you've done you know, when you've got a, you know, a fairly mild mid cycle refresh like that, you know, to have them back to back like that, you know, you're more likely to notice the differences,

Rebecca Lindland  17:00  
right, exactly. Um, alright, so

Dan Roth  17:03  
in terms of my garage, I'm still driving the F 350. And so there's no real stuff to discuss about that, that we haven't already discussed, other than I'm trying to get someone from Ford power train, to talk with us a little bit, do an interview about the development of that 7.3 liter V, because it's interesting. So those probably after the first of the year, will have something for you. Your turn, Sam, okay.

Sam Abuelsamid  17:32  
I also had a couple of vehicles, the first one I only had for 24 hours, you know, as part of one of the things you know, a number of automakers have been doing in recent months is virtual drive programs for new vehicles, instead of instead of flying people out to a location which they some some are doing, and you've done a couple of these, Rebecca, others are just sending the vehicles out to people, you know, to do a 24 hour or even a weekend loan, in some cases, you know, for to get a quick first impression, like we like we do. And then, you know, once once everybody's had to turn it then turn around and, you know, do the longer week long loans. So I had the Kia Sorento hybrid the 21 2021 Kia Sorento hybrid for for about 24 hours. And the Sorento has been redesigned this year. And you know, it Sorento is an interesting crossover because it's it's it's in that mid size class. So it's you know, it's not as big as something like an explorer or Toyota Highlander. You know, the or the telluride. But it's, it's a fair bit larger than something like the the Sportage or rav4 escape. And what's it you know, and there are other vehicles that are similar in size to this, like the Ford Edge, you know, is a comparable size to this or the Toyota Venza, you know, is also in that same similar size class to this. But what's distinctive about the Sorento in this class in this segment, is that it's available as a three row most of the others are only two row utilities. And the first thing I will say is that, you know, that third row is really only for either for smaller kids, or for short trips for adults,

Dan Roth  19:27  
or that daughter's boyfriend that we were talking about the last time Yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  19:31  
So I actually did climb back into the third row. And you know, I was able to sit in there, you know, my head was not quite touching the headliner. But, you know, because of the size of this thing, you know, this the rear seat, the third row seat is sitting on the floor. So when you're sitting in there, it's you know, very much a knees up position. So, the second row seats are adjustable fore and aft, you know, so, you know, at kind of the the midpoint of the second row adjustment You know, I was able to sit without my knees touching the second row seat, but it was not a comfortable position, it's not something you want to do on a regular basis, at least for you know, for an adult, or you know, somebody who's taller for kids, you know, not not really problem kids kids could fit back there without any problem.

Rebecca Lindland  20:19  
Can you bought a car seat? Or a booster seat back there? Or not? Really?

Sam Abuelsamid  20:25  
I wonder not sure I have to go back and check. I don't know, if it has the latch system in the third row, I think it's a second row. Plus, I don't think you really want to do that anyway, because it to reach back there would be very challenging, you know, it would be very awkward to try and get a smaller child into a car seat in that third row.

Rebecca Lindland  20:44  
So what is the point of it

Sam Abuelsamid  20:47  
just very much for occasional use? Yeah. So it, you know, if you, you know, let's

Unknown Speaker  20:52  
say, for example,

Sam Abuelsamid  20:53  
it's there if you need it, you know, and the, the other thing is, you know, with that third row up, you've only got 12 and a half cubic feet of cargo space left behind it. So this is very little cargo space left. So it's not something you don't want to take six people or seven people on a long road trip in this thing. But you know, if you're picking picking up, you know, picking up kids to take them to soccer practice or something like that, sure, or to a party, that's fine, it's fine for that, you know, for just a quick, you know, cross town trip. So it's, it is handy for that, when you fold the seats down, now you have like 38 cubic feet of cargo space. So it's actually great for that. So for our family of four or five, for a road trip, this thing would actually be fantastic. Because you have a ton of space for all the gear behind that second row. And depending on you know, what the position of the second row is, you know, if you put if you slide the second row seats forward all the way forward, I think it goes up to about 45 cubic feet. So, so, you know, if you slide them back, you know, I think it all the way back with the second row seats all the way back, it's I think it's somewhere around 30 cubic feet. So there's a lot of cargo space in that in that way, which is actually better than most of the other mid size crossovers like this.

Rebecca Lindland  22:14  
Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, I was going to the extra design of is fabulous.

Sam Abuelsamid  22:20  
Yeah, you know, it's, that's what I was gonna get to next. You know, the last two generations of the Sorento, you know, when they went from the second to the third generation was very much an evolution, you know, very incremental change and kept a lot of the same kind of design language, they softened it up a little bit. This time, it is a little bit more of a step away from what they had before. With this new generation of the kiya what they call the tiger nose grille, you know, so you still have those two tabs on the top and bottom in the middle. But now, instead of that being the grill being flushed, it's like, it's like it is on the K five, the replacement for the Optima, where it's a little more concave. So it's got a little more texture to it, and a little more contouring to it. So it's a little more interesting to look at. But I think I think they've done a good job with it. A couple of details I'm not crazy about but it you know, it's it doesn't, you know, it's not a deal breaker, you know, on the the fenders, you know, there's no fake Fender vents, but there are these two trim pieces, you know, the cross between the front fender and the front doors, that depending on the trim, you get on some of the gas engine versions, you know, those are in black or like a dark gray color. On the Hybrid's like the one I drove there Chrome, and so they stand out a lot more. And similarly, the the chrome trim around the subclass behind the the rear doors just behind the rear doors, there's like a little kick up, you know, there's, there's like a little reverse sharkfin there behind the rear doors, which, you know, again, seems like kind of a pointless little flourish there. It doesn't really, I don't think it adds anything to it. It's not, it's not a deal breaker,

Dan Roth  24:15  
like of vortex generators. noise down, I'm

Sam Abuelsamid  24:18  
really sure what it's supposed to symbolize. You know, I think, again, on some of the trims on the gas engine, you know, that's, that's kind of dark gray or black. And so it doesn't, you know, it's not really noticeable. On the hybrid, both hybrid trim levels, it's done in Chrome. So it does stand out more, but you know, it's it's a minor detail. It's not, you know, not gonna stop Wouldn't it wouldn't stop me from buying it if I was interested in this vehicle.

Dan Roth  24:46  
Yeah. So but you said you had the hybrid? Oh, yeah. So they've they've revised power trains for all like the Sorento across the board or you can get the they've got a new 2.5 liter turbo Eight speed dual clutch transmission, which is interesting because direct clutch which

Sam Abuelsamid  25:06  
Yeah, so this is this is the same transmission that's in the new, you know the, the 2021 version of the Hyundai veloster. And, and you know some of their other models, and yeah, so the gas engines is two to 2.5 liter four cylinders is naturally aspirated version. And then the turbo version. Yeah, what I had the hybrid was the hybrid, which is new this year.

Dan Roth  25:31  
So did you have the plugin or just the regular was just the

Sam Abuelsamid  25:33  
regular the plugin won't be out until sometime in the summer. So right now they're launching with the regular hybrid, the what engines and the hybrid. So it's a 1.6 liter turbo with with the the same kind of setup that they've had in other Hyundai and Kia hybrid vehicles over the last 10 years where it's using a 66 speed stepper, conventional automatic transmission with the motor in between the electric motor and between the engine and the transmission 227 horsepower in this configuration. So it's the most powerful hybrid that Hyundai Motor Group has done yet. Although we will be seeing more powerful ones, the when the plug in hybrid arise, it will have a bigger motor and a bigger battery, it'll be 260 horsepower. The hybrid is only available right now in front wheel drive no all wheel drive version of what the hybrid the the the plug in hybrid will have all wheel drive, because it'll actually have Why is that? It's not entirely clear, I think, you know, there's just a decision second

Rebecca Lindland  26:43  
engineering reason for it or not? No,

Sam Abuelsamid  26:45  
no, not really. You know, I think it was just they didn't maybe didn't, they didn't feel that it was that there was going to be enough demand for an all wheel drive hybrid, which is interesting because all the other hybrid crossovers, the escape the rav4, the CRV and the and even the the Venza are all have all wheel drive available, at least as an option. In some cases, like the ROV, it's it's actually standard. So, you know, the I think the power train is really good. I really enjoyed driving it, I took this thing out and drove it for several hours. And, you know, I think the way that Hyundai and Kia do their hybrid setup, I think is a very good configuration, it feels it feels better than you know than a lot of the other hybrids, because it's not a CVT, it feels real

Dan Roth  27:37  
drive, it's got a lot of nice positive feel, yeah, our train instead of that sort of slushy ness,

Sam Abuelsamid  27:42  
right. So you never get any of that motorboating effect. When you're accelerating. And it I think, you know, it just feels really natural, and it feels really smooth, they do a really good job of the control the transitions between, you know, engine engaged and the engine off. You never really feel it happening. There's no jerkiness to it. You know, I averaged I think, what about 30, almost 38 miles per gallon with it, which is right around the EPA combined fuel economy rating. And, you know, this was on a relatively cold days, some snow on the ground, you know, cold wet pavement, one of the one of the interesting things about the hybrid 17 inch wheels, instead of much larger wheels. So there's a little more compliance there from that extra sidewall that you get, which, you know, I appreciate it, you know, especially on some of the roads around here. One, one thing I did notice is that hard acceleration on cold wet pavement, I did manage to get some wheel hop, which was quite substantial wheel hop, but most people aren't going to be driving it that way most of the time. So So, you know, overall, you know, the interior, you know, the new interior is, you know, feels more premium, you know, this the one I had had some nice aluminum trim across the dashboard. You know, very nice screen in there, updated version of the infotainment system, wireless support for wireless Android Auto and Apple CarPlay which is something most of the all of the recent vehicles I've had over the past month, month and a half or so have had wireless support for both Android Auto and CarPlay which is it turns out to actually be if you as long as they also include a wireless charging pad and you have a phone that supports that and that fits Yeah, that you know that works really well because you know I can get in, put my phone down on the on the pad and not have to futz around with the cable. I don't have a cable dangling around. So that that works. That all works really well. You know, so i i i like this thing a lot. I thought it was really good. And I'm really looking forward to trying the plug in hybrid version which is supposed to have 30 miles of electric driving range when it when it arrives. Later later in 2020 or 2021, that the hybrids the regular hybrids are available now they should be in dealers right about now as we're recording this. And I think it's going to be another success for kiya. You know, the Sorento is one of their top selling models. One of the interesting things one of the reasons they explained the key explained for why it's offered as a three row you know, when you have the the Telluride, you know, which is larger, you know, it's a more useful three row. The telluride is only for North America and Middle East, it's not offered in Europe or China or even Korea. It's only for the North American, the Middle East, whereas the Sorento is a global model. And so they wanted to offer a global three row you know, it's it's this this right size, it's more appealing in most other markets, as opposed to the Sorento or the telluride being considerably larger. And you know, Pricing starts at about 33,000 for the S trim, and then the IAQ or the the yaks trim, which I had, you know, including delivery and, and the cup just I think the paint was the only option on there. I had the the optional runaway runaway red paint, you know, came out to 32 38,205. For for that. So yeah, I think it's, it's, it's quite a good value for what you're getting. And you're getting a lot in there. You know, it's got it's got the, you know, all the Driver Assist features link Keeping Assist, and blind spot monitoring with cross traffic alert doesn't have front cross traffic alert like that Lexus, but you're also paying an extra three grand,

Unknown Speaker  31:50  
exactly.

Sam Abuelsamid  31:51  
But it does have the rear cross traffic alert, and adaptive cruise control and all the other goodies in there. So you know, I think it's, it's quite, it's quite a nice vehicle. If you're looking for something, you know, something like the telluride is a little bit too big for your needs. And, you know, you want something that you know, especially as a five seater, four or five seater, you can get it with center captain's chairs, which the one I had had. It works, you know, it's a, it's a very comfortable vehicle. One, one note, it did have a little more road noise coming through than I expected, especially on a hybrid, usually the hybrids, hybrid models typically have a little more sound deadening in there or some active noise control to keep that down. But it wasn't, it wasn't so bad that again, you know, it wouldn't be a deal breaker, but, you know, it's just something Something to note, you know, if it's something that annoys you, you know, you may want to look elsewhere. But it's definitely worth taking a look at. So that's the first take on the Sorento hybrid.

Dan Roth  32:59  
Yeah, it's it's um, kiya has an N Hyundai, they've really studied the market, you know, they offer a really wide array of choices, and their styling and premium feel like it just it's an impressive thing to watch how they've moved in five years. And this thing just looks great. I love the they're offering it in green in x line. So there's like a bunch, you know, pushed up trim. And the back kind of reminds me of the SN 95 Mustang. Yeah, I

Rebecca Lindland  33:32  
was thinking it reminded me of the telluride but sure.

Sam Abuelsamid  33:39  
But yeah, you're right, Dan, I think there's a little bit of the the SN 95 in there as well.

Dan Roth  33:44  
It just looks like the SN 90 like the chocolate and taillights of sn 95 notchback Mustang. I don't know. Awesome.

Rebecca Lindland  33:51  
I think it's super handsome. And I love that green as well. I just I think it's a really handsome vehicle. And it does evoke that, that very muscular look of the telluride and the vertical headlamps or rear taillamps rather look great. I just I think they've done a really nice job because a lot of these this size vehicle can look very, very nondescript. And you know, kind of, especially to the to a general consumer, everything sort of blends. I can't tell a rav4 from a CRV but I feel like this is I think that this could be a very distinctive vehicle for for Kenya. I think that's great looking.

Dan Roth  34:36  
Yeah, now they're killing it in terms of just design and style and that the stuff that leaves a good impression, it's just, it's just beautifully done. And for the money, it feels looks and feels a little bit more premium than then some of the other stuff in the class. It's it's a tough class to this. There's some nice stuff in there but fake Dave keeping the Sorento fresh, they not letting it rest.

Sam Abuelsamid  34:59  
Yeah, I mean, you know, this They're keeping it to like four year product cycles, you know, so they're, they're, they're updating it on a pretty regular basis. And that's, that's, that's good, you know, they're not letting it get stale. So the the other vehicle I had for the remainder of that week, after they took back the Sorento was the Chevy Trailblazer. The, the Trailblazer got kind of a quiet debut last November at the LA Auto Show, you know, just kind of slipped out there wasn't wasn't a big deal. And, you know, this is another, you know, smaller compact crossover. But it's bigger than the existing tracks, smaller than the equinox, you know, kind of slots in between those two. And I think that, you know, I'm guessing that, you know, this shares it, I know, it shares a lot of its underpinnings with the Buick Encore gx that Rebecca drove a while back, which is also a little bit bigger than the original encore. And it shares the same power trains with the with the Encore gx. And it it's, I like the design of this thing. In particular, I really like the way that the Trailblazer looks, you know, it's got you know, this kind of chunkier, you know, little little sportier offroad you know, more a little bit more aggressive look to it. You know, I think it's got better proportions and the tracks, you know, the tracks, looks, you know, a little frumpy. You know, I think you know, this is it's a fun, it's a fun design.

Rebecca Lindland  36:39  
I have to say my brother is borrowing my encore because his car's in the shop and he pulls up he goes, it's a potato. I guess but it's a cute potato. That is not in the shop. Thank you very much. Um, but yeah, no, I think they've turned the proportions on the Trailblazer are better, but that's why I was laughing It's remembering summit.

Dan Roth  37:00  
You can walk.

Sam Abuelsamid  37:04  
So, you know, I think, you know, it's a good looking vehicle. You know, as I said, it's a little bit bigger than the tracks. You know, compared to the last vehicle that carried the Trailblazer name, this is a lot smaller.

Rebecca Lindland  37:17  
Totally different.

Sam Abuelsamid  37:18  
Yeah, it's a completely you know, it's been more than a decade since the the GMT 360 Trailblazer went away,

Dan Roth  37:24  
right. And the defining features of those cars were that they would just like pieces would fall off and they would break. rust.

Rebecca Lindland  37:31  
blazer, I

Dan Roth  37:32  
think good luck online that says

Rebecca Lindland  37:34  
blazer or regular blazer, because the Trailblazer was too big, right? Because that's I mean, that's what can be potentially confusing to a consumer is that, in fact, this Trailblazer is smaller than the blazer whereas in previous life was

Sam Abuelsamid  37:51  
the other way around the rail blazer was bigger than the blazer. Right. So I

Dan Roth  37:56  
love I love this the trail blazers is so it's so cheery looking and friendly. And this one are Yeah, yeah, no, this this is a GMT. 360s

Sam Abuelsamid  38:07  
Yeah, they were terrible vehicles. But no, this one this one is it is you know, it's fun looking. You know, and I think it's a really good size you know, as especially, you know, if you're going to be using it, you know, as a commuter vehicle, you know, an urban vehicle it's, you know, reasonably sized for parking and, you know, fitting through traffic and things like that. Love that to town. Yeah. on it to that this is a trend I really I'm all for you know, we've talked about this before, you know, having the contrast in roof colors. You know, nerds ism a little more character.

Rebecca Lindland  38:45  
Only the only interiors are jet black or jet black.

Dan Roth  38:52  
Sounds like GM? Yeah.

Rebecca Lindland  38:54  
Is that or is it just the color

Sam Abuelsamid  38:56  
that I chose? Mine. Mine was like black with brown accents.

Rebecca Lindland  39:01  
Yeah, there's so there's jet black with almond butter. And then there's I had jet black with Arizona accents, which is only, I mean, it's basic, but you're basically getting a black interior

Sam Abuelsamid  39:13  
grant, you know, a lot of the, you know, a lot of the vehicles they have limited interior color options. And I think I think that's because, you know, probably most people select the darker interiors, you know, they're easier to keep clean, you know, unlike you know, white leather Tesla interior, you know, that you have to use sat on the seat for a couple of times a couple of times wearing blue jeans, you know, there's been abused. Yeah, it can be a little oppressive, you know, if you don't have something to set it off. You know, I think the brown accents in this one, I think you know, definitely help. It helps break that up a little bit so it doesn't feel quite so imposing when you're sitting in there.

Dan Roth  39:51  
I'm dour enough. I don't need the interior art. I

Rebecca Lindland  39:54  
don't know I like I like to have I like to have a lighter option because I don't like really hot interiors or like even you know when you're in in much sunnier climates, so I'm the white but I have had white interiors, but I like even the Carmel seat color that's like in cocoa. You know, in my own Buick Encore I like having that option. It's a nice interior, though. I don't mean to get you off track. But now that I'm looking at bigger pictures, I've been stuff that Jeff black with the almond butter. nice actually.

Dan Roth  40:29  
What I like is that it starts like red at 20 grand. Yes. It's pretty affordable. Amazing. Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  40:34  
you know, I mean, the one I drove was the the active all wheel drive trim level, which is somewhat less affordable. You know, it came? Let's see, where's it here? It was bottom line 31,002 25.

Rebecca Lindland  40:53  
The lt actually does have multiple options. I was I was just looking at active and that only does have two interior. The RS only has one. Yeah. So I apologize. I take it all back. Okay.

Sam Abuelsamid  41:07  
So, yeah, so the, you know, the active that I drove, you know, which is one of the top two trim levels along with the RS was 31,000 to 25. You know, it starts at 27,000 for the active all wheel drive. And you know, some had a fair number of options, quoting the technology package which adds wireless CarPlay and Android Auto and the upgraded infotainment, the latest generation infotainment, adaptive cruise control, LED headlamps, HD Radio, etc, etc. bunch of other stuff. And this you know, that, you know, that's some of that stuff you can you can go without, you know, I think you can certainly live without some of those things I do. As I said earlier with the Sorento, I definitely like the having the and wireless Android Auto that, you know, that's a nice touch. There's two power trains available on the Trailblazer The base is a 1.2 liter three cylinder turbo with a CVT. And then if you get all wheel drive, then you get a 1.3 liter turbo with a nine speed automatic, which I think you know, I haven't driven the one too. But the the one three with the all wheel drive, I think is a very nice combination that's got more than adequate power. It's, it's 155 horsepower. I think

Dan Roth  42:34  
it just cracks me up if they split hairs that close to like a 10th of a leader is good. Why don't they just turn the boost pressure up?

Sam Abuelsamid  42:42  
I know. Could you could do that. I mean, there's there's other other reasons, you know that they have, you know, it may be that running the smaller engine at higher boost. You know, you sacrifice too much fuel economy and you're not you're not gonna get it where you need to be for your for your budget. You know, running a little slightly lower load, you know, with the larger displacement might work out better. But yeah, 155 horsepower, 174 pounds feet of torque with the one three. Really good for Yes, it's very good. You know, and for this size of vehicle, I think it's it's a really nice combination. Rebecca, when you have the Encore gx which engine did you have in it? Oh, well, I have to look it up. Okay, I do have a real drive. I did. Okay, so it would have been the same one, the one three then i think i think i think all wheel drive. Only the one three is available. The one two is with front wheel drive.

Rebecca Lindland  43:37  
Okay, so it was a peppy little thing, though. I mean, I, I admit I liked it better than cocoa. Even though I own cocoa. I just I liked having a little bit more room. Yeah. So 1.3 liter four cylinder. And then the 1.2 liters also available. Right. Mine had 155 horsepower.

Sam Abuelsamid  43:55  
I'm curious when you drove the Encore gx? What? What was the the the noise level? Like?

Rebecca Lindland  44:05  
You know, I actually thought it was pretty good. I, I mean, I wrote in my review that there the road noise was pretty minimal, so I didn't think it was bad.

Sam Abuelsamid  44:17  
Okay, there is definitely it definitely seemed like there was quite a bit of noise coming into the Trailblazer,

Rebecca Lindland  44:22  
but what do you think is gonna have that quiet tuning? Exactly, yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  44:26  
So you know, as a Chevy, you know, especially and, you know, I don't know if you know, maybe some of the other trim levels might be a little quieter in the certainly I think we have one of the bit it was more, it was more so really the engine then road noise and there's some road noise but the engine seemed quite loud in this one. And that may have been a deliberate choice, you know, for the active and maybe the RS trim levels to make it feel a little louder a little a little sportier. You know, and I i do i do like the sound of it. Three cylinder turbos, you know, they've got it, they've got a distinct sound to them that you know that a force that's different from a four cylinder and it's kind of kind of got this little growl to it. Yeah. And, you know, you see that on everything that's got a three cylinder turbo, like, you know, the modern minis, and, you know, the the Fords, the fiestas, an escort focuses that hadn't had that one leader, you know, it's it's kind of a fun sound to it. So I don't mind it, but it is, you know, again, like with the Sorento, you know, you'll want to test drive this before you buy and make sure that it's something that you can live with. Again, I don't know if some of you know like, the lt might be a little bit quieter. But it's, it's definitely something to take note of.

Rebecca Lindland  45:47  
So apparently I did, I'm sorry, I did have the front wheel drive, I had the front wheel drive with the 1.3 liter four cylinder turbo.

Sam Abuelsamid  45:55  
Okay, so I think I think you can get the one three with front wheel drive. As well as an option the all wheel drives, get the one three a standard.

Dan Roth  46:05  
Wow, that's the 1.3 and the front wheel drive. That's the one you take drag racing

Rebecca Lindland  46:12  
did years and one of the things I really liked about it was that there's a lot of flexibility on the interior as far as the seats like the the front seat goes all the way down. Like I could actually the the passenger seat in the front, I actually had this big long plant tree that I bought. And at first I didn't think it was gonna fit but because it's, it's almost seven feet tall, but it actually did because we were able to put the passenger seat front all the way down, like almost vertical it was it was impressive.

Sam Abuelsamid  46:45  
I didn't try that. But I did. I did actually take the Trailblazer to go pick up a couple of bookcases, my wife found on Craigslist, that, you know, we're pretty good sizer, but 35 inches wide by about 44 inches tall, and about 12 inches deep. And I went over to pick those up. And I've managed to put both of those inside with the backseat folded down. I put you know, stacked them up and got both of them inside, you know, so there's actually a lot of cargo space in there both with the seat up and with the seat down. So you know it is it is surprisingly roomy for something that you know, looks fairly compact on the outside. Right? Let's see what the show. Yeah, it's 20 25.3 cubic feet, what's behind the rear seat. And with the rear seat folded down, you get 54 cubic feet. So let's

Dan Roth  47:35  
see. That's pretty good. Yeah, so in a sedan, in this footprint, you'd have like a 13 cubic foot.

Sam Abuelsamid  47:40  
Yeah, yes, exactly. Which is, you know, which is why, you know, in smaller vehicles, I always prefer a hatchback, you know, given that hatchback, sir, you know, like, sedans are largely disappearing, you know, this is the next best option, you know, having that big opening in the back and being able to fold that down and use all of that volume, I think is is a huge benefit, you know, especially, you know, to give you flexibility when you need to carry stuff. So I liked I liked this thing a lot. You know, it's it's a it's fun to drive. You know, it's a it's a nice size. I like the size of it. And, you know, wasn't the most fuel efficient vehicle of this size class I've driven. I got about 26 miles per gallon, but I was driving it fairly briskly. I think EPA ratings about 28 or 2027 combines

Rebecca Lindland  48:32  
mine was 30 with that engine 30 to 31 combined. And I definitely got more like 27 ish.

Unknown Speaker  48:41  
Yeah,

Rebecca Lindland  48:42  
yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  48:43  
So you know, again, you know, not not the not the greatest. Yeah, so the Yeah, so the trailblazers read it and the other one three front wheel drive is ready to 29 combined or 29 City. The one the all wheel drive is 26 City, I got about 26 combined, okay, so a couple of miles per gallon shy of the EPA rating, but but you know, it's not bad. You know, so if you're looking for something, you know, on the compact size, it's got a fun look to it, and, you know, quite nice interior. You know, this is this is definitely a good choice. I think.

Dan Roth  49:20  
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Sam Abuelsamid  50:48  
Let's let's talk about some apple stuff. Yeah, I

Dan Roth  50:51  
think briefly about Apple stuff. Okay. There's chatter again, about Apple developing its own car. And there's been that ridiculous fake video making the social rounds. I don't know if you've seen it with the ball, the wheels that look like track balls. And it's like, yeah. So you know, brand fans, they're, they're losing their minds. I'm, I'm kind of scratching my head, I'm sure you too, are as well, because the details are. They're pretty thin, about Apple working on a car. So I mean, they've been working on a car or an on some automotive project called Project Titan for quite a while now almost six years now. That's really about all we know, right?

Sam Abuelsamid  51:31  
Pretty much. Yeah, I mean, we, this first came up in February 2015. So we're just shy of six years. And at the time, you know, back in 2015, I wrote a series of articles on my blog, which I'll include a link in the show notes, explaining why I didn't think that Apple would ever actually pull the trigger on putting this into production. Or if they did you know, what approach they would take, which my my take on it is that they will never actually sell this to consumers, it will be available only by subscription, or perhaps as a robo taxi service is interesting. And, you know, since you know, since 2015, we really haven't gotten much additional detail, there's been stories that pop up every once in a while about Apple kind of restructuring the program and moving away from designing a complete vehicle and focusing just on an automated driving system. And, you know, we do know that Apple has been working on an automated driving system, they have permits in California for testing for road testing. And we've seen a bunch of photos, you know, they've got a fleet of about 50, Lexus RX is equipped with various iterations of their automated driving system. And there's been photos that have popped up, you know, periodically of those vehicles, and, you know, they Apple publishes or they submit their, their disengagement reports to the California DMV, like every other company testing this stuff, except for Tesla does. And, you know, the, the speculation more recently has been that they were going to focus on that, and, you know, license that to other companies to install on their vehicles. You know, but, you know, the truth is, we don't really know anything specific about what their production plans are. Rebecca, have you got any thoughts?

Rebecca Lindland  53:24  
I think we can all agree that they're definitely working on something as it's almost their responsibility to work on something as a corporation as a technology company.

Dan Roth  53:33  
I,

Rebecca Lindland  53:35  
you know, Apple has, I mean, they've, they've got all these tentacles are always working on secret projects. They're always working on stuff. I, you know, I think that people are overly excited about the idea that they're suddenly going to drop a car on the market, like they did like the iPod years ago, you know, when they were developing those things like the iPod. That was a very, very different time, social media was not really around there. The rumor mill was much more kind of word of mouth, if you will. So the idea that they're suddenly going to come out with a vehicle, I just think is highly, highly unlikely. I would like to see them because I think that companies like Apple, push traditional manufacturers to maybe stretch their own their own technology, their own creativity, maybe accelerate timelines. So I like the idea. It's similar to why I think it's a good idea that somebody like Elon Musk and Tesla's in the industry, because they push those boundaries and they force the come for force legacy companies out of their timelines and their comfort zones. I think that the market is insane to think that this car is gonna come out in the next couple of years because There's a lot that goes in, you know, a car is far more complex than an iPod, or even whatever iPhone, they're up to iPhone 12, or whatever. So I think that this is something that we are going to have a lot more concrete examples of production than we would have almost any other Apple product that that because it just doesn't require as much what they build now doesn't require as much infrastructure and hardware and factories and things like that. So

Dan Roth  55:33  
I think what's catnip to everybody in the rumor mill is that Apple is famously secretive. So if anybody can do a project like this and keep it under wraps, it's them. And so that's, that's driving some of the conjecture and I think it's, you know, Apple working on automotive products isn't new, you know, like, we were just talking about and that the company does know, they bring value to that space, they know a few things about UX about software operating systems, stuff, they could be really valuable as a supplier with to the automotive industry. So I think, if even if they do decide to build an apple branded car, they're they're smarter than Tesla. They they'll use a contract manufacturer or partner with an automaker, you know, Foxconn,

Sam Abuelsamid  56:27  
if that's what Apple sells for everything they build, they'll they don't own any factories,

Dan Roth  56:31  
right? They understand manufacturing at scale, even for our car that's like, it's, it's, it's pretty different, but it's not the sort of general practices, I think, are pretty portable from, from building phones, to building cars to building, you know, whatever else it is, it's obviously, it's more complicated with the car, there's just a lot more parts, there's a lot of regulatory hurdles to jump through, and things but if they were to partner up with someone, like, like Magna to actually build it, you know, they they'd be in good hands. And they're clearly a consumer favorite, you know, they smartly diversifying their lines of business can help fill in those, those revenue troughs. If people decide they don't want to be buying the iPhone 13 or 14, or whatever, you know, for 1000 bucks every three years, being in the automotive sector isn't necessarily bad, at least from a sort of a surfacey surface level.

Rebecca Lindland  57:24  
They are super favorite, but it doesn't mean they're successful. I mean, Apple TV is still sort of limping along the smart speaker, you know, they've gone into some of these arenas that on paper, they should have succeeded. But for whatever reason, they did not.

Dan Roth  57:40  
I do like the fact that they've got such enormous market cap, they're trying and failing, and like to see the failures. Yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  57:47  
And, you know, the, the interesting thing about Apple, you know, compared to, you know, say, Tesla, or Google is, you know, Apple is a very disciplined company, you know, they, they try a lot of stuff, but they don't talk about any of that stuff until they are ready to put it on the market. And so, you know, they they are, they are notorious for working on all kinds of different things, oftentimes for years on end, and then deciding now, this isn't gonna work, you know, we're just not going to do it. And they never talked about it.

Dan Roth  58:21  
Well, it's that it's that culture that grew out of, you know, where Apple grew out of in the first place, is that sort of like Xerox PARC kind of culture where it's just, it's r&d for r&d. And if it doesn't actually lead to a marketable product, in the short term, it's still worth doing. Yeah. And

Sam Abuelsamid  58:39  
r&d and the lab, as opposed to Tesla that they just throw it up there at their customers and hope for the best. Hey, everybody,

Dan Roth  58:46  
your beta testers? Yeah. So

Sam Abuelsamid  58:48  
that's, that's something that Apple doesn't do. Yeah,

Dan Roth  58:52  
they have other customer hostile practices.

Sam Abuelsamid  58:55  
I'm not saying customer hostile sometimes, you know. But, you know, at least the for, you know, whatever the rationale they have for the decisions they make. The it's usually pretty well developed. By the time it gets to market. It's usually, most of the time, it's not half baked. You know, the Apple Watch was an exception, it was kind of half baked when they first launched it, but they've evolved it pretty rapidly over time, and it's gotten really

Dan Roth  59:24  
good. And the people who have them like them, you know, I think that's, that's the thing and that and then Apple is sort of one of the few brands that is as strong as Tesla from an affinity standpoint. So they, they could immediately come out and be a leader in awareness. And, and, and, and just popularity, you know, they'll be the next hot thing if they absolutely market.

Rebecca Lindland  59:50  
They definitely would, I mean, we would be I would be all over driving that thing.

Dan Roth  59:54  
Just I'd be very interested. I'm sure to have a watch. What about the idea that, you know, if Apple decided to go into automotive supply? You know, to say, okay, Mercedes, you want to you want to put Apple UI in your my Bach, let's talk, you know, they need to know if they decided to see what it would take to develop a car from scratch. So they know, they they understand those those automotive customers, right like one one. If you're going to sell stuff to automakers you need to know what automakers go through, right? So they can you can understand their challenges. You can speak their language. And maybe that's,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:00:44  
and they've dipped their toe into that with CarPlay over the last six years.

Dan Roth  1:00:48  
Yeah. So maybe that's like why if they're if they're developing a car to see how difficult it is, so that they understand all those those areas that those potential customers are going to have challenges and be able to have a solution for them. You know, because that's one of the things you do when you're developing a business is you try to really get into the heads of your customers, and have those solutions ready for them. That can look a lot like developing a marketable product, I suppose. Yeah. Now,

Rebecca Lindland  1:01:15  
I do think it would be interesting, though, if they start targeting the commercial space here, maybe, you know, like, tying it in, like with Amazon or something and doing a commercial van, which we've talked about in the past could be really appealing and tie in some of their big corporate companies, that could be a different area that they go after as well. But

Sam Abuelsamid  1:01:39  
that doesn't seem like the kind of thing that that I mean, that's not a very Apple like thing to do Apple likes to do consumer products. They're, you know, they don't do servers. They don't do they did they did all

Dan Roth  1:01:51  
those things once upon a time, and then they demanded them. And all of us pro users sick. Yeah, we're not Did anybody have a trashcan? Mac Pro?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:02:00  
Yeah, they're, they're much more the generally much more focused on, you know, mainstream consumers. Although, you know, the more premium end of the mainstream consumer market, you know, they don't go for the low end, which is why you know, what, that's part of why I don't think that you'll ever be able to buy an Apple Car, because, you know, they're certainly not going to sell, you know, a $30,000 Apple Car, I don't think you get the whole

Dan Roth  1:02:25  
bundle, right for like, $400 a month to get Apple TV and Apple Music,

Rebecca Lindland  1:02:30  
they talking about doing something like, I like an Uber, like, are you sure about them putting out like an Uber like,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:02:38  
yeah, that's, that's where I think, you know, it'll be either some sort of subscription where you have access to the vehicle, where and they retain ownership and control of the vehicle or a robo taxi service? Because, you know, for one of the things, you know, apple, among all the other things we've talked about, Apple is also a company that only gets into businesses where they can make very high profit margins.

Rebecca Lindland  1:03:00  
Yeah, they're able to do that

Sam Abuelsamid  1:03:02  
35 to 40%, profit margins, right? You know,

Dan Roth  1:03:06  
everything, like three to four,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:03:09  
right, you know, and well, and ride hailing, you know, it's negative, nobody's ever been profitable and Right. Which, which makes it even more challenging. But, you know, if they, if they focused on only the high end of that market, you know, they could, you know, and, and rather than trying to be Uber and go everywhere, you know, if they focused on specific markets, where they can, you know, where they can offer that served for a premium ride hailing service at a high enough price point, they could potentially get the kind of margins that they're looking for, you know, and also that way, you know, they avoid the challenges of, you know, a dealer network, or, you know, figuring out how they're going to sell these things, you know, all the problems that Tesla's had, and that, you know, some of the other upstart Evie companies are going to face, you know, they avoid all of that stuff by just going straight to the services market. And, you know, if you look at Apple over the last several years, they have, you know, as the market for their existing products has gotten saturated, you know, for the hardware side of it, they have focused more and more on building the services business, you know, whether it's Apple Music, or Apple TV plus, or fitness plus, and all these other things that they're selling, you know, they are really much more focused on the services side where they can get more growth than what they are able to achieve now on the hardware side, and that's growth is what, you know, that's, that's the number that's the thing that triggers the, the financial markets to say, Oh, yeah, it's a growth company. Let's throw all our money at their stock cars, that growth company, car, selling cars is not a growth market.

Unknown Speaker  1:04:47  
Sing them,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:04:48  
but the services side if you're offering a premium mobility service, that could be a growth market potential. I

Dan Roth  1:04:56  
don't know. I think that developing an automobile together with Trying to do automated driving. Like the car itself is gonna be a land war in Asia kind of situation where the

Rebecca Lindland  1:05:09  
Eleanor in Asia

Dan Roth  1:05:10  
exactly, like, fine Go for it. But, you know, I think that together with self driving, like, it's just a terrible idea, the competition in the field, like, even if they decide to challenge Tesla, it's such a tiny slice of the market. And it's not enough just to develop a car Apple has to develop, you know, they have to break some ground and not just in style and features and interface or experience, but all of those, you know, it's gonna, gonna be expected to have great self driving. And I mean, I don't care how good their AI is, if they, if it just, I don't know, it just seems like the AI is gonna get to 99.5%. And that last point five is never gonna happen. That's the part that kills people. Yeah. And, you know, it's just, I don't know, I mean, I think that they're just, they're probably behind on their own efforts, they should just buy someone, you know, and and maybe they'll do that, it's that that some point, but I still just a car plus self driving is is bad. A car on its own is, is probably worse. Because that's, that's not a forward looking product. Like he's like you said, you know, it's that's, uh, you know, and if they're gonna try to figure out how to make that 30% margin and you're basically making a $50,000 car and, and selling other. Yeah, so like, I mean, that's good luck. I don't know, the most interesting thing I heard about this whole thing is that they've developed a monosol battery with LFP lithium ion or lithium iron phosphate. So it's not like the lithium ions that have a heat issue sometimes and and it's a single cell versus like, what pouches are individual, like, multi cells. So yeah, that

Sam Abuelsamid  1:06:59  
that, that that whole thing sounds very, extremely dubious. First of all, lithium iron phosphate is a lithium ion chemistry, it's been around for a long time. A lot of companies do it. You know, the advantage to lithium iron phosphate compared to like, what you find in most TVs today is instead of iron phosphate, they're using mix mixes of nickel, manganese, and cobalt, primarily, some cases aluminum,

Dan Roth  1:07:27  
some more expensive than iron, as well,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:07:30  
right? Well, those are their higher energy density, then then iron phosphate. But they're also less stable. That's where you get into the thermal runaway problems with with those batteries. Iron phosphate, iron phosphate, very stable, but it's also got like 30%, less energy density than those other chemistries. So you get, you end up with less range. So it's cheaper, and it's safe, but you don't go as far. And in fact, you know, lithium, iron phosphate batteries are very popular in a lot of TVs in China, because of the cost factor. You know, Chinese consumers are less concerned about having a 300 mile range, they want an Eevee. That's, that's more affordable. And that's why recently, Tesla started selling a version of the model three in the China market, using lithium iron phosphate batteries instead of nickel NMC batteries, because they can offer to the lower price, consumers will buy that. And you know, it's a lower range, it's less than 200 mile range. But you know, they can get a lower starting price. The you know, those that part of it, and then there's this whole moto cell idea of, you know, where you make the whole thing, one giant cell. It's not even clear what the hell that means. I mean, it's just Yeah, I was trying to find information on that. I was, like, even let acid batteries have cells like that, that you put multiple cells together? Or you can't, you can't you can't make cells that large enough, you know, to do a single cell for a car. It makes no sense.

Dan Roth  1:09:01  
Yeah, like what's I mean, I guess you could do an interesting shape to the cathode and the anode and figure it out. But like, I just,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:09:08  
you still you still have to cool the thing.

Dan Roth  1:09:12  
You still have to it's like a cake, it's gonna get hot in the middle. And

Sam Abuelsamid  1:09:16  
that's why nobody does. That's why there's a, you know, kind of an upper limit on how big you can make the cells, you know, because it's the thermal management becomes starts to become a problem. And I think I think what it is, you know, the pert, the reporter that wrote that story, heard snippets of things from various sources. They're not really technically oriented and didn't really understand what they were hearing and just kind of threw it all in there without really knowing what it means or knowing what questions to ask about whether this is even plausible. And based on what's written there, I don't see anything that's actually really plausible.

Dan Roth  1:09:51  
They should I mean, I, I guess maybe we could interpret it like a structural so like, that seems plausible. Yeah, they're not the only ones doing that

Sam Abuelsamid  1:10:02  
that part is plausible. I mean, that's, you know, if you look at Apple's products, you know, their phones or computers, they've gone in the direction of eliminating a lot of the packaging around the cell. That's why the all modern computers and phones have the battery sealed in, you know, instead of having a separate package around the cell, you just have the bare cell, you know, the pouch, in, in the device, you know, and it's non removable, you know, so that way, you actually leave more room in there, by eliminating that packaging, you leave more room inside that case, for more battery, more cell, so you have better battery life. But it, again, use at the size you need for a car, you can't make a cell that large, you know, you'd still have to have, you know, many, you know, hundreds of cells in there, you know, to be useful in a car. And, you know, that's actually something that that musk talked about in our battery day a few months ago, you know, is going to this idea of eliminating the module packaging and just having the cells in there. But, you know, again, when you when you do that at a car scale, then you start to get problems with serviceability, if you have a bad cell in that battery pack that is structurally part of the car, without any modules, separate modules inside there. Now, if you have a bad selling, or you can't service it, you have to throw away the whole thing. You know, whereas with with the existing designs where you have, you know, 12 1420 modules in there, with with cells in them, you can replace individual modules and service those offline without having to throw the entire battery pack away.

Dan Roth  1:11:46  
Yeah, well, it's like that sticker on some electronics like no user serviceable part. Yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:11:51  
Yeah, now the entire vehicle becomes no user serviceable parts, which would be consistent with Apple's design philosophy over the last 10 years. Right.

Let's move on to some listener questions. Let's start off with leaf. Excuse me if I'm mispronouncing your name, but look, I think it's leaf tossing to sing dusting. Anyway, the question is, when do you think affordable electric sports cars will start to be made something in the $60,000 or less range? I own a 2014 c seven Corvette and I've had other gas powered sports cars most of my life. Porsche 944 Pontiac Solstice Solstice GSP. Who glutton for punishment to solstices

Dan Roth  1:12:37  
the only place the GMT 360 parts were good c six Corvette

Sam Abuelsamid  1:12:42  
Hey, the solstice was a lot of fun to drive. Not great to live with.

Dan Roth  1:12:47  
It's an amazing bit of parts been engineering. I just I just love you look at that. And they The only thing that didn't come out of the parts was like the frame in the body. Yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:12:57  
Anyway, but I want this to be my last one presumably last gas powered sports car. I looked at upgrading some of the some of the compliance TVs like the spark leaf, 500 e etc to be more fun, but no one makes suspension kits for most of the Eevee versions. The only one with good parts options is the 500 D but after test driving it the power is just too low. The Tesla Roadster isn't an it isn't an attainable car both from it's not existing. And insane price and Porsche icon isn't affordable and both have two doors too many for my tastes. There are some small cars coming that might be sporty if anyone supported them. But most are only an EU it seems like the Honda II, the new 500 500 D and the new mini cooper Evie. I've seen rumors of a hybrid ca Corvette coming but those all sound like more up trim options that will be well beyond $60,000. So what do you guys think? Oh, I get the whole thing. Yeah, it looks like Okay, so what do you guys like?

Dan Roth  1:14:00  
I'll let you I'll let you go. Rebecca, you're the analyst with your finger on the pulse of the public.

Rebecca Lindland  1:14:07  
I think you know, it's one of those things that first of all, this two door power sports car market is very small. Anyway, I you know, in some ways, like the Lexus lc 500 would be an amazing Evie. I mean, that would be a really cool thing. I mean, it's not going to be 60,000 it's 100,000. But it's just that there isn't really a market for this. And that's to me is the biggest challenge here. I mean, he's named some of the ones you know, certainly the the Mini Cooper Evie is a bad idea. But there's just not a market for it. Unfortunately. That's it means that number one issue.

Dan Roth  1:14:50  
Yeah, I think that automakers are focusing on the markets where people are buying in the most volume and where that demand is Eventually, there'll be some Eevee options. Yeah, I'm trying to think the the Audi

Rebecca Lindland  1:15:06  
or the Aston Martin repeat,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:15:08  
but that again is except that Evie was cancelled.

Rebecca Lindland  1:15:12  
Yeah, exactly. Well, the look on they canceled the whole brand they got they put off making the Lagonda an Eevee. But yeah, I mean that there's just not a market for it. Not yet.

Dan Roth  1:15:23  
No. What about that? The Audi e Tron GT, though is that,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:15:27  
again, the same thing as the icon. two doors too many? Yeah. Yeah.

Dan Roth  1:15:32  
Look looking, though.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:15:33  
You know, I think

Rebecca Lindland  1:15:35  
the Fisker, what about the Fisker?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:15:38  
That's a four door as well. Um, yeah. I mean, I understand the desire to want a two door, you know, especially a two seater. You know, I have that same desire, you know, it's why I own what I own. But it's, you know, as you said, Rebecca, the reality is that the market for two door to see sports cars is tiny. And when you've got an industry facing the kind of transition that's facing today, you know, over the next five to 10 years, you know, it's hard, it's really hard to justify the investment in something like that, when you've got to do all this other stuff, you know, you've got limited resources, you've got to prioritize what you're going to do. And, you know, a small number of, of, you know, sports cars like that is, it's gonna be really tough to make the business case for it.

Rebecca Lindland  1:16:34  
Well, at that price point, because the karma Evie, right when karma took over,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:16:38  
I think that's a plug in hybrid anyway. Oh, it's not it's not an Eevee. It's not a full EP. Yeah. So you know, the the Cooper, the Mini Cooper is actually available in the US market. So that that is one that's available here. I haven't driven it yet. But from people that have driven it, you know, it is fun to drive. So that is one I would take a look at. It's a two, two door. It is a four seater, but you know, those back seats are pretty useless anyway. So it's, you know, I would take a look at that one. You know, I think that, if we look out a few years, you know, with the transition to a lot of companies using some form of skateboard chassis, I think we actually will see some to do some two door to cedars start to come back. Because, you know, once you've got that basic platform in place, it becomes easier to drop different top hats on it. And so I think we could start to see some, you know, something more sporty come back, you know, on some of these platforms, in the next, you know, in the next five to 10 years, but it's going to be a few years out, you know, I wouldn't be surprised to see, perhaps, you know, Audi, you know, maybe come back with a new generation TT, that's electric, you know, you know, a TT e Tron, you know, something like that could become a reality. And it could be in that sub $60,000 price range, you know, the, the Corvette, I don't think you're ever going to see the hybrid Corvette. You know, GM has abandoned hybrid save, Mark Royce and Mary Barra made it pretty clear. They're not doing any more hybrids. It's all Evie going forward. So there will be, I believe there will be an electric Corvette and electric seat in the next three years. You know, we may even see, you know, first hints of it coming next coming up in 2021. You know, as, as some of these vehicles start to hit higher volumes over the next few years, I think we'll start to see the aftermarket coming in and, you know, creating the kind of stuff, The parts needed, you know, like SEMA. You know, I've heard, what's his name, john, I think was last name. Now the guy from St. He's like the VP of SEMA. He's talked about this a lot. You know, I think we're going to start seeing a lot more parts availability, you know, to do interesting things with EBS in the next nine years. Yeah, we said, john, we're on IAQ. Yeah, he's talked about this, I think I think we will see a lot more interesting stuff coming, and we'll see some dedicated ease and I wouldn't, you know, want in one company that I would keep an eye on his monster. You know, at some point, I would not be surprised to see them create an electric Miata. Yeah. You know, maybe, you know, by the 2025 timeframe,

Dan Roth  1:19:37  
to if you're looking to spend 60 grand, you have the opportunity to get a classic car retrofitted with an Eevee. powertrain.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:19:46  
That's that's actually probably your best bet right now is to do an electric resto mod. Yeah.

Rebecca Lindland  1:19:53  
He looked into that because he let's see, I mean, he said he mentioned A suspension kit.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:20:02  
Yeah, he was looking at existing TVs to make them to upgrade them. So there's that. But I think I think the electric electric resto mod market might actually be the better near term choice. Because there's, there's some interesting kits out there. And in fact, you know, one of the things that GM has shown, you know, first last year at SEMA, and then you know, and the virtual Sema this year is they are developing a, an E crate motor system, using the the motor and the power electronics and the batteries from the bolt from the Chevy Bolt. Last year, they showed it, they showed a an old k five blazer, or a K 10 blazer, with this system in there, you know, putting a bolt battery in the back of it and a couple of bolt motors on you know, in there, and that what they what they've developed as a kit, where there's an adapter that goes from the bolt, the output of the bolt motor, right into, you know, a turbo hydramatic for speed, you know, for speed automatic. Yeah, so you can basically bolt it up in this, this is like the next generation of the classic LS crate motor, you know, except it's electric, you know, so you just drop it in bolt it right up to a GM automatic transmissions got the same bolt pattern and everything, and things like that, you're gonna start seeing more kits like that coming from the performance parts divisions of various automakers, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ford Performance, take something, you know, I mean, they did that Maki 1400, where they actually stacked seven Maki engines, or motors, you know, or they've got three, three in the front four in the back stack together. And, you know, because what part of the reason they built that car was to experiment with different configurations, they've got it set up, so they can run different combinations of the motors. And I wouldn't be surprised to see Ford Performance offer a kit based on the Maki motors and electronics, you know, in the next couple of years. And I think other manufacturers Mopar, I would guess at some point is going to do that, as well, you know, once they've concluded their, their merger with PSA and have some electric stuff to, to work with. I would be surprised if they don't offer something. So it's now's not the right time. But it it is coming. But you know, if you if you want something right now, there are, you know, there are some small companies out there doing some some interesting stuff, you know, with, you know, putting together kits for various companies, you know, for various vehicles, that that you can do.

Rebecca Lindland  1:22:44  
Elite just has to be patient. Yeah,

Dan Roth  1:22:46  
yeah. Or get it, you know, getting an electric Porsche from electric buck.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:22:50  
Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is there are some, you know, nine elevens, old nine elevens. And Beatles are the ones that there been a lot of conversions done of those

Dan Roth  1:23:00  
a bit. Yeah. I mean, they've been easy swap for decades. Yeah. What

Rebecca Lindland  1:23:03  
is that one company that's doing? It does the bus Volkswagen had a thing on it? Last year, and they were doing old vintage bus read

Sam Abuelsamid  1:23:15  
on a couple of Yeah. Electric concepts that they've electrified.

Dan Roth  1:23:20  
Yeah. I mean, they're out there.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:23:22  
Yeah. And I will, I will include a link in the, in the show notes to a segment I did on the tech guy show a couple months ago on electric crate motor conversions with with the GM stuff in there, and

Rebecca Lindland  1:23:39  
he classics.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:23:40  
Yeah, that's it. That's the company classics that

Rebecca Lindland  1:23:42  
I wrote about JD Power.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:23:44  
Yeah, they've got they've got a few different kits, you know, they do conversions of a bunch of different vehicles. So you know, take a look at the classics. You know, they might have something that Yeah, there needs.

Rebecca Lindland  1:23:52  
Some stuff isn't in the US, but I would definitely contact them. Yep. We can link to the article that I wrote on JD Power.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:23:59  
We will definitely do that. All right. All right. So next up, de matches. I started listening to Wilburys a couple of months ago on the recommendation of the accidental POC XL tech podcast hosts. That's our friend Casey lucency. I'm a tech nerd who enjoys driving and knows a lot about trains and buses, but not cars. I love your show because it's approachable to a newbie like me, but still very informative. Listen through the back catalogue back to back to November 2019. So far, because it's something calming to listen to when I'm stressed

Dan Roth  1:24:29  
or calming.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:24:36  
calms you down. Until a few months ago, I was a city bus driver for nine years with mass transit in Amherst, Massachusetts.

Unknown Speaker  1:24:46  
Yay.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:24:48  
their dream of buying an old bus ideally an RTS or rear engine Bluebird and converting it to a camper. I already missed driving a full size bus especially with the snow driving approaching Gillick bus is a blast to drive in a good blizzard.

Dan Roth  1:25:02  
I want to know if you can like, so those are kind of long and the engines in the back but I bet with enough practice you could you could get it to go sideways around corners like like rally drifting and just know exactly how much opposite lock to put into just you like and amhurst there's enough out there that you know, it's not like a cow town you're gonna hit stuff if you're not careful. And it's a little bit of a thrill. So, yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:25:28  
so anyway, I'm curious what sorts of cars you guys would recommend I look at in the US market and a few years of my 27 or 2007 manual Impreza dies, but that would be an even longer email. I'll save that for another time. Thanks for the great show. So what what would you guys recommend as a replacement for is to that for the 2007 manual Impreza Honda Civic

Rebecca Lindland  1:25:50  
annual.

Dan Roth  1:25:53  
I that's that's hard to hard to argue with.

Rebecca Lindland  1:25:55  
That's, that's my first thought.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:25:57  
Yeah. No, you know, civic, civic, hatchback, sport. Or, you know, the NSI coupe would be good. But you know, I think if you're replacing an Impreza, you know, well, assuming that it's like an impressive wagon as opposed to a sedan. You know, then then the Civic hatchback sport would be an excellent choice with the 1.5 liter turbo the and the manual transmission, you know, very affordable, fuel efficient. And, you know, I mean, reliable on should be, that's a hoot to drive.

Dan Roth  1:26:29  
Yeah, but also like this is, I mean, the Civic is just like, it's a great choice. But I feel like the Subaru is such a part of that Western Mass kind of culture. I mean, you're just south of Vermont. And we all know about Subarus in Vermont. So

Sam Abuelsamid  1:26:46  
obviously, you know, a Subaru to replace the Subaru

Unknown Speaker  1:26:52  
re

Dan Roth  1:26:53  
wr x or an STI? Hmm,

Unknown Speaker  1:26:55  
yeah, there

Dan Roth  1:26:56  
you go. upgrade a little bit. You won't be much behind it. Yeah, it's

Unknown Speaker  1:27:03  
true.

Dan Roth  1:27:03  
I mean, you'll only be behind it.

Yeah, yeah, I was just gonna say you know, something like a GTI. to like, just thinking along the lines of what you've already got, if that's what you like, or you can take a total left turn. But you know, there's nothing wrong with a Crosstrek or B or x or GTI. The Civic pretty much anything in that segment is going to be amusing, but those are those are the top ones.

Rebecca Lindland  1:27:32  
I want to hear more about the converting like the rear engine Bluebird into a camper because I do I do watch a lot of like the, you know, tiny house conversion, HGTV shows bizarre bills and stuff like

Sam Abuelsamid  1:27:45  
that would be a that would be a fantastic restaurant. Yeah, it would be amazing. I would love to see D you know, get a bluebird and and drop a couple of electric motors in there in the back.

Unknown Speaker  1:27:57  
Yeah.

Dan Roth  1:27:59  
I mean, have you get it and maybe you guys haven't seen it. There's a YouTube channel. I don't remember the guy's name, but it's called bus greasemonkey. And so it focuses on older buses like the older flexibles and the gmcs that had the two stroke Detroit Diesel in them. But I mean, those those two stroke, Detroit's were the you know, 670 ones and 870 ones and whatever we're in so many things like city buses, school buses, greyhounds from like the late 40s all the way up to I don't know, when they stopped making but there's a lot of camper conversions or, you know, mobile home conversions with those that are already out there. And they're a lot more labor intensive, I think because they're just they're older. So the the engines are, you know, older technology still fascinating though. You know, when you think it's a two stroke diesel with a blower, and some of them are turbocharged and stuff. So it's really it's just fascinating to watch how he resurrects these these things. You know, what I would love to see is somebody take an old GMC motorhome,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:29:13  
those things are some of the coolest motorhomes if you know what I'm talking about Dr. Jones, what is lookup GMC motorhome there is

Dan Roth  1:29:24  
a whole enthusiast community around this because basically what they did was tornato Oh my gosh, what a riot. Yeah, so that has that has the Oldsmobile for 25. Va and the tornato like teach 400 it's it's a front wheel drive rig from the tornato stuck in there and then it's just like a dead axle in the back. And yeah, they're really really popular and I saw one around here the other day just sort of languishing on someone's property. I was gonna go back with the zoom lens and take pictures.

Rebecca Lindland  1:29:53  
These are amazing. And you know Haggerty actually has a story about them. Hagrid can talk about it.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:30:01  
Oh, people were really cool. And they built them for about 1012 years, I think. But I'd love to see somebody do an electric conversion. And And the thing is, you know, because the electric motor so small, you could make that rear wheel drive, you could because it's a dual rear axle. So you could put an electric one electric motor on each of the rear axles, or you could keep it front wheel drive, you know, because it's got that same, that same bolt pattern, you know, for the for the V eight, you know, get that get that GM II crate motor and hook it right up there in the front. But you know, I would say put, put one, put an electric motor on each of the rear axles make it you know, dual rear wheel drive, that that would be a hood.

Rebecca Lindland  1:30:44  
It says so. So on Wikipedia for what that's worth. It says five years cite 19 7078 seems like

Sam Abuelsamid  1:30:49  
it was. But yeah. And it was a design that you know, even now almost 50 years later still looks contemporary.

Dan Roth  1:30:58  
NASA used them.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:31:00  
Yeah. Oh, yeah. They used them to transport the astronauts out to the to the launch pad.

Rebecca Lindland  1:31:06  
What a riot. I

Sam Abuelsamid  1:31:08  
think I think they still do i think i think they still use one. I think they still have a couple of them that they use for transporting astronauts out to the launch site. Oh,

Rebecca Lindland  1:31:15  
my gosh, I love them. They're so 70s Yeah, like everything good in the 70s. I mean, like, you know,

Dan Roth  1:31:25  
there's all kinds of if you want to get into motorhomes, there's all kinds of weird

Unknown Speaker  1:31:29  
stuff out there.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:31:31  
Okay. Jakob Nimoy we haven't we haven't heard from Jakob and a few months. So Dan skepticism about the company culture at Aurora and Sam's comments about that got me thinking to share a bit of my own perspective from the barrier tech viewpoint. Like Sam said, culture inside an organization really comes down from everyone modeling their leaders behaviors, and reinforcing it as a default way to make decisions without having to run everything up the chain. It's especially reassuring to hear that our our practices what they preach. And I can say the same about other organizations here that I've been seeing the inside of, when the bosses demonstrate they care about individual people and don't look and don't like jerks, you find the jerks don't gain traction and leave. Likewise, when a boss pushes to break up, meeting focused, meeting focused culture in favor of solid work, but then schedules 10 hours of back to back meetings, the company cultures and music culture. It's really as simple as that.

Sorry, I hit the down button here. Let's get

Unknown Speaker  1:32:38  
it got it.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:32:39  
Yeah, oh, hopefully, we don't need to comment. Or sorry. One factor that gets overlooked though, is the minority of culture. These are the folks who are capable of and smart and come to an organization like Uber or Google or Facebook to surround themselves and work with other people in the top of their fields. The problem arises when arises when these folks find out that they have values different than the prevailing culture but find themselves trapped in their jobs for various reasons. Often these folks come from a minority background or less privileged in society than the leaders at the top of that org. I would bet that there are at least 100 of these folks inside Uber ATG, and they will hopefully find working for a major relief. Yeah. And you know, I've heard I heard an interview last week on automotive News's shift podcast with with Chris Urmson. And, you know, one of the things as they've been doing this deal is, they've been essentially going through and interviewing all the ATG staff and, you know, making the offers to the ones they want to keep. So I think, I think that they're, they're going to sound like they're doing, they're going to be doing some filtering out of the, the ones that aren't going to fit with the the Aurora culture. Anyway, hopefully, we don't need to comment too much on the news that's out there. The demonstration demonstrates major mismatches of culture inside the the big Fang, which is Facebook, apple, Amazon, Netflix and Google, and also the other players here. Moreover, leaders who fully understand culture and force let's call them good values, in their orgs understand these dynamics to the leaders that are a must have been aware of this when striking a deal. I would wager further that they are deliberately figuring out how to keep the folks who will fit well on earth or are coming from ATG. And that's, I think that's exactly what they're doing. Finally, to really paint a picture I found culture may be the hardest part of interviewing when looking for work. In my line of work, web and cloud infrastructure technology comes and goes so it rarely matters what tech stack the company uses. Instead, folks like us, like us who prefer to work on the on the line outside management are forced to glean what both both what is the company culture and how well do they adhere to their stated culture, as the saying goes to thine own self be true, Rebecca, you are indeed missed last week as that I would have loved to hear if you had anything to add on culture in the automotive industry, from your perspective, I'd love to hear that too. You know, I mean, obviously, you have a very different perspective, you know, as a woman than than I do. So I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Rebecca Lindland  1:35:14  
Yeah. You know, I think that one of the things, certainly culture does start at the top for sure. If you, you know, as he says, if if you say, we want to be flexible, we want to be nimble, we want to be responsive. And here's 10 hours of meetings with which to do that, you're not going to get anything done. And I think that we certainly know that I've worked for all different sized companies. And so, but it doesn't seem to really matter, you're still impacted by people at the top. If you are, you know, if you're tasked with being creative with being a i, your forward thinking, and then you're given a PowerPoint presentation, that is an hour long meeting, I from somebody who isn't particularly nimble isn't particularly creative thinking, you're just going to engender frustration amongst those people. And I certainly have seen it, you know, my boss at Kelley Blue Book was one of the most creative people that I've had the really true privilege of working with. And he absolutely thrived under one style of management. And then when a new new set of executives came in, really had a tough time with it. And for the most part, everyone that I've worked with there is gone now for from a variety of ways. So I do think the other thing that I've said this before, but I firmly believe that we are not accounting for the changes in demographics, as baby boomers retire, or they hang on, and they're working into their 70s. In some cases, you still have to have a culture that evolves that is open to evolving, that adopts new technology that looks at things like slack like that we even use here, you know, I started using slack in 2013, back in Saudi Arabia. And when I came back to the States, certainly at Kelley Blue Book, and Cox, automotive, nobody ever heard of it. And tableau, the same thing, why I started using Tableau in, in Saudi Arabia. So I think that it's not just, you know, you've got to be willing to adopt these cultures, you have to be willing to look at technology as opportunities, rather than threats. And then demographically, when you hire a 24, or 25 year old, fresh out of college, they are probably exposed to the latest technology, and they expect there to be a nimbleness to a culture that, again, just has to start from the top, it has to be authentic. Also, you have to have that feeling that the cultural, the tasks that you're given, and the and the steering, the the mission is something that is lived day to day and not just pulled out for, for staff meetings, or for you know, shareholder meetings even worse.

Dan Roth  1:38:21  
So I think that's one of the one of the biggest issues is the mismatch between stated values and actions. And a lot of companies. I mean, I'm in Boston, I'm about as far as you can get from Silicon Valley, but a lot a lot of the companies I've worked for, have been led by dudes and white guys. And that's a problem. That's a huge blind spot, you need more women, you need more people of color, you need those, those voices for diversity, because you need diverse teams to develop products and imagine the, the sort of the consequences of what you're developing, you know, like as a, as a middle class white guy. I don't have those experiences of somebody who didn't grow up in a sort of relatively privileged, safe environment, you know, what I mean? Like,

Rebecca Lindland  1:39:16  
it's diversity of thought and experience, and it's not identity politics, it is, it is, these people are bringing something different to the table, but I will say that my boss that Kelley Blue Book was the white guy, but he just had incredible diversity he had the ability to be very open minded to diversity of thought and experience and and the team I worked with was, was culturally and culturally diverse. And experience diverse, although the management was not particularly the senior level management was not particularly but you have to

Dan Roth  1:39:53  
be receptive to that input. And I like so like Uber as an example. One of the problems with Uber was like, all, all of the people who were developing and making decisions and imagining that product hadn't ever been stocked, they hadn't been, you know, minorities that get that would have the, you know, the drivers that not pick them up. And just there was a lot of blind spots there that they didn't account for. And you're responsible for that product, right. And Facebook, especially, I mean, Facebook started off as like a version of hot or not, like, I guess. It's just like, there's no consideration given to the nefarious uses of the tool that you're building, and you build this powerful tool, and it gets to scale and then you can't put that genie back in the bottle.

Rebecca Lindland  1:40:45  
So and you can't be naive, you can't, you cannot, with technology, you cannot be naive to how people are going to use this and who is going to use it, and who is going to use it and how they're going to use it. And those safeguards, those assumptions. You know, I mean, the internet is really, it is it's a beast of, but there were no safeguards on it when as it grew and developed. And, you know, but But again, if we think about company culture, it, it is something that I think is controllable, but it has to be controlled, I from both the top down, but also by hiring people that will buy into that culture and buy into the idea that diversity of thought is highly valued, and actually creates a better product. In the end.

Dan Roth  1:41:44  
Yeah, you want people to change. So this is all to say, I agree completely, because you want to hire people that are are better than you that are going to challenge you that are going to tell you that you're wrong. You want to listen to them. And that's the most important part is

Sam Abuelsamid  1:41:57  
not just hiring those people but actually listening to what they say.

Dan Roth  1:42:02  
Yeah. And you do you have to, you have to live your values. And if you don't, then they're just an empty mission statement on the wall. And there's a lot of those. Yes. Yeah. I

Sam Abuelsamid  1:42:13  
mean, whatever you do, you don't want, you know, a bunch of Yes, men around you. Yeah, that's right.

Rebecca Lindland  1:42:18  
You you want it, you don't want to be the smartest person in the room? Because then you're in a lot of trouble.

Dan Roth  1:42:24  
What do you say? No, that's true. Yeah. We can we can have a whole conversation.

Rebecca Lindland  1:42:32  
We can, we can.

Dan Roth  1:42:37  
So let's move on to the next question. All right. So

Sam Abuelsamid  1:42:39  
the last, the last two questions are both related to the Mustang Maki. from Adam, Jacqueline CO, great discussion on the machi. One thing I noticed on some of the reviews is that depending on your height, size and seating position, your knee could hit the bottom corner of the screen for both the driver and the passenger. I wonder Sam experienced anything like this and also appear, it appears that there's nowhere to rest your right knee when driving some wondering if that could potentially have some impact on longer drives. So we've talked about this in the context of some other vehicles, particularly for Rebecca, because she is not quite as tall as I am. And well, and you know, similarly, you know, if you follow Jill salmonella, on Twitter, or an Instagram, or wherever else she is, you know, she's also short. Thanks. She's like, 411. And, you know, so, ergonomics, you know, when when you are at any? Actually not, I wouldn't even I was gonna say at any extreme, you know, either very tall or very short. But actually, it's not even that, you know, because regardless of your height, people have different proportions, you know, different proportions of leg length to torso length, arm length, the leg lengths and all this, so everybody fits in these vehicles differently. So, to answer the first part of the question there, you know, I did not, you know, in the two hours I had with the machi have any issues with my knee hitting the the bottom corner of the screen. But, you know, I think when I get a chance to spend more time with it, that's something I will take a look for. You know, it didn't it didn't bother me, given my particular proportions, but for anybody else, and as I said, you know, Rebecca, you've talked about this before on some of the vehicles that you've driven, right? Um, you know, it's, every vehicle is different. Every individual driver is different, and there is no universal right answer.

Rebecca Lindland  1:44:48  
Well, I had a funny experience with the Chevy Suburban, I the diesel that I had recently, and every time I got out, I didn't even realize it, but something would ding it I mean, as I was getting out something would dig. I'm like, What is that? And I, and one time I came back to the car Fortunately, I hadn't been gone very long. But the lights were still on and I thought I have auto headlamps. Why are those things still on. And it turns out that every time I got out of that car, and the ding would go, I would actually be inadvertently hitting the button for the lights, which is on the lower left hand side with my knee, and just moving it over, away from auto and into like, like, the manual, right? Whatever it was, unfortunately, getting it wasn't the full blown. But so that ding was telling me that I had turned the lights that the lights were actually on. And I didn't realize it. So you know, that was just a kind of a funny thing that because I sit just close enough that as I'm sliding out, I hit that I hit the light adjustment thing on it. I think I talked a little bit about the Mazda CX nine, where I just could not find a comfortable seating position, because the angle of the windshield was so dramatic that I'm sitting like so close to the same thing with the monster Miata. The monster Miata issue, though, was because it's a manual, and I want to be able to get the clutch all the way down and not do a lot of toe driving. You know, there was recently I heard an interview with a female racecar driver. She's based in Europe, but she had to get a lot of stuff custom made, because she's already tiny. And she said I couldn't get my entire foot on the brake or the accelerator. She said I was she was doing a lot of tow driving. So it all depends on your economics. Dan. Sam, you're absolutely right. When we talk about, you know, you said you've had a longer torso, I have a really short torso, where how you sit where you sit. It's one of the reasons why I love automatic electric seats, because you can get those kinds of slight adjustments. The Miata has a manual seat. And so it's kind of like it moves, I think maybe half the notches, yeah, the notches, right. And it's just like the the one that's just a little bit further back than I want it the other ones a little bit further than I was sort of like I want something in between. So economics, it's another reason why it's so critical to test drive this vehicle to test drive a car that you are thinking of buying, because you have to make sure that you can be comfortable, safe, have good control, you know, I've been on tracks before where I may not be, I'm not coming to a, I can't stop the car as quickly as I should be able to. And it's actually because I'm not sitting close enough. I've got to be able to get the full, you know, you got, you want that full extension and be able to pound hard enough on that brake pedal in order to stop the car. So there's all these kind of safety features visibility's and issue. Economics is a key, the key thing when purchasing a vehicle, and that unfortunately, is confined to your body in particular. That's my rant on.

Dan Roth  1:48:05  
I mean, I find that, like, if I were my my heaviest winter boots, I wind up hitting the fuel release button, Grant chair. Just it's not like it happy. Yes, ergonomics are gonna get to depend on you and the car. So you're gonna have you're gonna have to Adam, you're just gonna have to go drive the Maki, you

Sam Abuelsamid  1:48:28  
have to go drive it? Well, I think we're gonna have to have to put make a note that one of these days, we've got to do a segment just on how to test drive car. You know, before you buy, you know, and I think it is crucially important that whatever you're considering buying, you need to go actually sit in it get in and out of it repeatedly. You know, drive it, you know, don't ever, ever, ever buy a car without having driven it first. Yeah,

Dan Roth  1:49:01  
for like, as long as possible.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:49:03  
Yeah. Yeah. But we'll, we'll come back to that topic on a future show. Anyway, final question for this week. I've been listening to this from Charles painter. I've been listening to show for a while and have many questions, but we'll start with just one main question on EBS. I've toyed with the idea of getting an Eevee but I don't want to drive a laptop on wheels. Even the new Mustang Mach II looks like nothing but some laptop computer inside with that large touchscreen. Gee, can you play Angry Birds on it? No, no games like that. Yeah, the closest I've seen to a car that is an Eevee is the Nissan LEAF. It's bad enough that more and more cars are using digital speedometers. But to put just about all of the cars controls on a large touchscreen is not driving. I want the car to look like a car on the inside. Before I would ever buy it. I've heard I haven't heard any comments from the group on this. Oh, yeah, I guess you haven't haven't been paying enough attention. Anyway, as Rebecca said, if you want to, if you want to take hold, there has to be the driving experience. Oh, and by the way, I've decided that if they removed the word intuitive from the English language, there wouldn't be much said on the show. I

Rebecca Lindland  1:50:22  
know angry.

Dan Roth  1:50:26  
Intuitive is a good word. It's, it's, I mean, do you want us to start saying crap like false easily to hand? Yeah, I think you should check out the Chevy Bolt. First of all, I love the leaf. The bolt is another pretty regular car that car like an RV and Evie. Yeah. But I don't disagree. And then we've talked about that with the the interfaces, where the screens are there, because they're kind of a new cool looking thing. But also, because for a lot of Evie upstarts, it's so much cheaper than switch gear, which is sort of one of the hidden ways where they've, they've sold you on one thing, while they save money on the other. And the controls, you have to be able to use major controls without looking at them. So I agree with all those points. I don't I don't, I don't have a dissent there. But definitely go check out the bolt.

Rebecca Lindland  1:51:25  
Yeah, I mean, I think that the reality is simply that vehicles are becoming more of a technology product. And the trend in technology is, is towards larger screens towards more capabilities. And, you know, unfortunately, this is just, we don't really have a lot of control over the domination of technology in, in everyday life anymore.

It is it's coming. We just have to try and manage it.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:51:58  
Yeah, you know, unfortunately, you know, it seems increasingly to be what a lot of consumers want. Yeah, even if they don't, necessarily No, you know, why, what they should, what they should have, as opposed to what they want. You know, I, again, I agree with both of my friends here. And with you, Charles, you know, that you shouldn't have all those controls embedded in the touchscreens. But as Dan said, you know, engineering physical controls is costly. You know, it's, it adds cost to build that stuff to develop that stuff and build it, you can have more wiring more more pieces, it's going to be tougher to manufacture than just doing it all in software. But I think to do it, right, you know, until we get to a point where you have vehicles that truly are self driving. That's what manufacturers need to do, they need to engineer that stuff. And as much as I am not a fan of big touchscreens, I think, Ford you know, with the mock, he, you know, they're looking at the customer, you know, the the market that they're going after, you know that the people that really want something like a Tesla, you know, I think that they struck, bought as good a balance as they could with that vehicle, you know, yes, it has a 15 and a half inch touchscreen. But you know, they, they've done a good job on the on the UI with that it does have a nice big physical volume knob. It does keep, you know, important controls, like your windshield wipers and your lights, you know, as physical controls, you have a stock on the steering column for the wipers to control the wipers, just as you do on any other Ford vehicle, you've got the same, you know, physical, you know, knob for the lights, you know, and a number of other things in there are still done with with physical buttons and switches. So I think that they have struck a reasonable if not perfect balance there. But as Dan said, you know, the bolt is another great option. And, you know, I think that we're gonna we're gonna see more stuff as we start to see a lot more ease coming to market in the next couple of years. You're also going to see, you know, more variations and you know, hopefully you'll find something that that strikes the right balance for you.

Rebecca Lindland  1:54:23  
Yeah, they'll figure it out something that would be intuitive to him.

Dan Roth  1:54:27  
I wouldn't twist the knife.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:54:28  
And that shocker.

Dan Roth  1:54:31  
Well, hang on, hang on. We have two really quick ones from Twitter. Okay. So search on Twitter asks if the UAC patriot is going to go on sale in the US. No, that's not gonna happen. That's what is it? UAC is Russian Ukrainian.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:54:48  
Yeah, I can't remember.

Dan Roth  1:54:50  
Yeah. Russia. Yeah, Russia. Yep. Yeah. So no, not we're not getting Russian vehicles here. You can probably import one if you want to work really hard on it. And then what is the actual expected price of the electric f150. And who are expected early adopters? That's from we have

Sam Abuelsamid  1:55:06  
no idea what the price point is going to be. I would, I would wager the starting price is probably going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 grand. And, you know, the market affords going after that is more more commercial users, you know, professional truck users as opposed to consumers, although they, you know, they certainly won't turn away consumers who want to buy it, but they're really targeting that the commercial use market with that vehicle.

Dan Roth  1:55:37  
Okay. All right. Well, I think that's about it. Rebecca, did you have anything else on your plate that we need to discuss before we let everybody go?

Rebecca Lindland  1:55:47  
Nope, I'm good. I'm hungry. So don't mention plates. But

Dan Roth  1:55:52  
a ham sandwich. I see a ham sandwich in the future. Well, everybody, thanks for listening. You know where to find us. We're at feedback at wheel bearings, dot media. We're on the social medias. And thank you everybody for your Patreon support. And if you haven't been there yet, go to patreon.com slash wheel bearings, media,

Rebecca Lindland  1:56:15  
and have a very, very happy 2021

Sam Abuelsamid  1:56:19  
audios 2020

Dan Roth  1:56:31  
Thanks for listening to wheel bearings. Hey, we love to listen to our listeners to drop us an email to feedback at wheel bearings dot media with your thoughts. Questions are conversation starters. That's feedback at wheel bearings dot media. You can also find us on twitter wheel bearings cast. Don't use any vowels except for the A in cast. So that's WHLBR NGS cast. Thanks again. We hope to hear from you soon.

Rebecca Lindland  1:57:02  
Hey, Wayne County, it's time to get blunt about medical marijuana. Because there's a time and place to use safely.

Dan Roth  1:57:09  
The roads

Rebecca Lindland  1:57:11  
that's a no go. It's not okay with a baby on the way. Kids around. Lock edibles up and store them high off the ground. Use medical marijuana as prescribed every time. Visit Wayne County comm slash blunt facts brought to you by the Wayne County Department of Health human and veteran

Dan Roth  1:57:31  
services

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