Dan Roth 0:01 Coming up on episode 177 of wheel bearings. It's an extra strength episode this week. We're driving the 2021 GMC Yukon Denali Subaru Crosstrek limited and a pair of key a K five gt line sedans. We discussed the new Jeep Grand Cherokee L, a new logo for General Motors and the Mercedes Benz hyper screen that's being shown off at CES. As promised, you talked with Ryan, the image from Ford about the Godzilla v two. That's all ahead on episode 177 of wheel bearings. Did you know you can support wheel bearings directly? Head to patreon.com slash wheel bearings, media and you can become a patron today. Your contributions will help fund the platforms and tools we use to bring the podcast to you. And exclusives and improvements are already on the way thanks to your generosity. So if you want to be a part of an automotive podcast, like no other had to patreon.com slash wheel bearings, media. This is wheel bearings. I'm Dan Roth from Forbes Sam Abuelsamid 1:13 I'm Sam Abuelsamid from guidehouse insights. Rebecca Lindland 1:16 And I'm Rebecca Lindland for Rebecca Drives Dan Roth 1:17 Sam won the coin toss this week. So Welcome back, everybody. Hey, I want to at least just start by saying hello to all of our Patreon patrons. Did you guys know we're up to 32 people directly supporting us. Wow, that's today. Sam Abuelsamid 1:37 Thank you so much to everybody. Rebecca Lindland 1:38 You like us? You really like Dan Roth 1:43 Sally Field bandit. Excellent. Excellent. Rebecca Lindland 1:47 Exactly. Dan Roth 1:49 So I think we probably need to just take a minute here and run through the names of the people who are sending us their hard earned money instead of doing things like I don't know, buying groceries or? I mean, it's not a lot. No, I'm Sam Abuelsamid 2:04 sure I'm sure they're also buying groceries. I hope so. I hope Dan Roth 2:07 nobody's putting themselves into dire financial straits. Sam Abuelsamid 2:12 Please don't do that. Dan Roth 2:14 But let me start from the sort of the list here. So we did thank Robert Grace brento is the name that he signed up with Vikram Kirby, Steven a couple of Steven Steven no and Steven hado. Scott Yang, Ronald Jennings, Nathan banks. I don't have that whole email. me just look at the doula open Gada which sounds like a surname, not a surname. nom de plume. So Larry jack Joseph Marino, john Bates, Harold combs. Oh, some familiar names some time. Ethan Pope Colin How? strictly Benjamin Benjamin. Thank you for your support. Andy Vickery Ric chin. Brin, I am going to murder your last name. Bryn Baron shouts. And I think another person I recognized from the Twitter's William Charles. Shawn White House Oh, I should say okay. To like. Our blind spot monitor is our $2 250 tier. And so these folks are blind spot monitor supporters. So Rick chin and Bryn Baron shows in our blind spot monitor supporters and then our next tier is the Forward Collision Alert. And that's $5 a month and that's so that's William Charles Shawn White House Mark tougher Meyer. Jeff Harris. Jeff, Dawn's back. Hold your aisle hard. Gareth Thomas Florian Hertzog. Eric white, Eric Lander. Eric Lander, I know you like personally. Thank you. Daniel pod wall in DC, MD. Important. And then Adam. Adam Jacko. winco. So there you go. That's all our supporters, everybody who is kicking in, you could be one, two, and then we'll say nice things about you in the podcast like we have, but all these people, but we don't always say nice things. Sometimes we say critical things when we talk about the cars we drive. And so we should do that. Who wants to start? Like we didn't we didn't figure this out first. So we'll just Rebecca Lindland 4:45 what isn't Sam go first? Because Dan, you and I had the same almost the same vehicle so we can compare and contrast. I would love to sit down. So Sam, why don't you talk about the GMC Denali you had? Sam Abuelsamid 4:56 Sure So yeah, I had the the new Yukon Denali. which launched last year. And this is the latest edition of of GMOs full size pickup truck, full size, full size SUVs, pickup trucks, the body on frame SUVs. And, you know, this is this is a segment, you know, full size SUVs that GM, you know, just as Ford has been touting its market leadership on full size pickup trucks for four odd decades, GM has been in the same position on the SUV side, the full size SUV side. And this is this generation that launched last year with the new Escalades the new Yukon. And the new suburban is, you know, one of the biggest changes to these vehicles in in many decades. Rebecca Lindland 5:43 ask you what's the platform called on this one? Unknown Speaker 5:48 Sure. Okay. Sam Abuelsamid 5:49 Yeah, something like that. They, you know, they don't really talk about those too much anymore. It is derived from the latest generation of the full size pickups that launched a couple of years ago. But it is, it is fairly significantly different to, you know, the front suspension architectures is relatively common between the two. But for the first time, GM has finally adopted independent rear suspension on the on the SUVs, something that Ford did back late, I guess, about 1314 years ago on the the Yukon or on the the expedition and the navigator, Dan Roth 6:26 I think that was actually like turn of the century. No, the the Explorer went first. Sam Abuelsamid 6:31 Okay, and then the expedition navigator, picked it up in around 2006. Yeah, yeah, no, you're right, the Explorer, the Explorer got independent rear suspension around 2000. But the full size utilities got it a few years later. And the reason why this is important, it's not just about handling, you know, which is you know, typically the the main reason why you would go with independent rear suspension, excuse me. In the case of these vehicles, you know, these are big three row SUVs. And when you've got a solid rear axle, you know, and the the differential has to has to move up and down with the axle as you go over bumps and things like that. And so that means you've got to leave space for that axle to move. And so when you look inside the vehicle, you know, if you've looked at Suburbans are Yukon's, or escalates in the past, once you get past that second row seats, you'll find that the floor goes up several inches. And because they have to have that space for the axle to move around underneath. And so as a result, they have typically had, you know, anybody sitting in those third row seats has been in that classic, you know, knees up position, because the seat is mounted right on the floor. Rebecca Lindland 7:50 It's excellent. That's why everyone no one wanted to sit in the middle. Sam Abuelsamid 7:53 Right, exactly. Dan Roth 7:54 Yeah, it's also excellent for humans of modular construction, if you can remove your legs. Sam Abuelsamid 7:59 Yes, yes, it is very good, very good for those phones much more comfortable. So the you know, the great thing now is, you know, with an independent rear suspension that the differential doesn't have to move. So now you can literally lower the floor by about five or six inches. And that means that you can have the seat mounted above the floor, that third row seat mounted above the floor, and you can have that gap in there. And the rear seat that third row seating is much more comfortable. Now. In addition to that GM also stretched the wheelbase and the length of these by about four or five inches compared to the previous generation. So you've actually really got a usable three row SUV now. And in addition to that, it also rides Dan Roth 8:46 and handles a lot better I was gonna say it must feel you must feel like a king on the highway and then you already do with the the Yukon or the Yukon suburban anyway. But you must really feel like like royalty floating down the highway in one of those with that long wheelbase that's gonna ride well, and then because you've got that independent rear suspension Now the other thing about a live axle is it's just heavy. And it's Yes, flopping around. Now it's bolted to the body structure and, and so there's a lot less weight sort of bouncing over every expansion joint, so it must ride and feel really, really good from behind the wheel. Sam Abuelsamid 9:27 It does it's far superior than to any Yukon or suburban or Tahoe or, or escalate that's gone before. And, you know, the the one of the things that's available on here on these new SUVs is they've added the the Magnetic Ride dampers on here. So that's available. And then in addition to that, there's also an air spring suspension system. So you've got the adaptive magneride dampers, and then the air suspension really makes the right call So much better. But, you know, one of the interesting things I think trying to remember now when it was either I think it was actually in late 2019, before the pandemic started, or very early last year, that when GM had an event at the Milford Proving Grounds where they first showed us the Tahoe and suburban at that point, they showed off the Yukon a couple of weeks later, I think in Idaho, which is I think, where you went for that one, Rebecca? Yeah, Rebecca Lindland 10:28 it was. Vail. Sam Abuelsamid 10:30 Vail. Okay. Yeah. At any rate, at Milford, you know, we got to ride back to back in the Tahoe. And then in the, the expedition, you know, and, you know, some of the roads, the road surfaces, we drove on, you know, fairly bumpy road surfaces or going over railroad tracks, you know, at an angle obliterate railroad tracks. One of the things you noticed in the expedition is as good as you know, the expedition has been for years, you know, so, you know, for years, it's been so much better handling and writing than the GM SUVs. But in comparison to these new ones, you got a lot more head toss in the Ford, you know, so you feel the body moving side to side, in the GM SUVs. Now, it's so much better controlled, you know, it feels much more stable than than it does in the Fords or really anything else. Dan Roth 11:26 Those were those ones that you were driving over the railroad tracks, though they had, I'm assuming the air suspension and Mr. shocks. vert. Yes. Sam Abuelsamid 11:34 Yeah. And and that's what was in the the Yukon Denali, that I was driving last week as well. Dan Roth 11:41 The X, there's nothing like that in the expedition right there. Maybe air suspension? Yeah, Sam Abuelsamid 11:44 the expedition offers an adaptive damping system, but it's more the traditional dampers, you know, with just electronically controlled valving inside the damper. So Dan Roth 11:56 adjust rebound? Sam Abuelsamid 11:58 Yeah. So it's got less range of adjustment, and it's not as fast as the Mr. dampers. Rebecca Lindland 12:04 Why would they not have done this before? Sam Abuelsamid 12:07 Low GM have not done this before. Rebecca Lindland 12:09 Right? Or did it so many years ago, at the turn of the century, nearly? Well, Sam Abuelsamid 12:13 it does cost more, you know, it is more expensive. Overall, it does add more weight, you know, an independent rear suspension is heavier. You know, so, and why is that? Because the the components, there's more, there's actually more components in there. And you have to have kind of a subframe in there, you've got the, you've got the suspension links that, you know, that actually support the wheels. So typically, an independent rear suspension is, depending on the vehicle anywhere from 100 to 150 pounds heavier than the drive axle. Dan Roth 12:49 Yeah. But the difference, though, is that all the extra weight is is on the sprung side. So right it's, it's, it's supported by the suspension versus the suspension having to react to it, I guess, a good way to sell scrap. Yeah, Sam Abuelsamid 13:04 you know, that, you know, it was it was a beam axle, a solid axle, the entire weight of the axle is moving around. And so you've got all that inertia. So when you go over bumps, you've got to move all this weight with, with an independent rear suspension, most of those components that differential the axle shafts are now become sprung weight. So the the unsprung weight is, is the enemy. That's what you don't want as far as ride and handling goes. Dan Roth 13:32 That's why we hate heavy wheels. Yes, Sam Abuelsamid 13:36 yeah, no, true. Truly, that that is that is an issue. So basically, what you've got is less of the weight that actually has to move around when you go over bumps or hit potholes. So it can respond better respond faster, so you get better ride quality, Dan Roth 13:51 it's Jim's version of muscle weighs more than fat. Sam Abuelsamid 13:59 Yeah, but you know, to, to their credit, you know, at the same time, while you know, you've added some weight with the IRS, you know, they've taken weight out of other parts of the vehicle. So it's actually not any heavier than before, and it's actually lighter than before. So, you know, the GM has actually been really good over the last decade at, you know, optimizing weight in their vehicles, and they've done a great job on, you know, all their last couple of generations of vehicles of actually making them lighter, without without really having to resort to exotic materials, or even even doing like what Ford did with their trucks and utilities. Going to an all aluminum body, you know, they've stuck with steel bodies, but you know, they've really done a lot of great design optimization to bring bring the weight down. Dan Roth 14:50 I'm sorry, go ahead. I was gonna get super geeky and I can just look at a press release. So carry on. Unknown Speaker 14:57 Our that's what we're here for today. Dan Roth 14:58 Do any aluminum anywhere like with the closures like the Dorf skins or the hood. And Sam Abuelsamid 15:04 so there there are aluminum, like the hood, the tailgate, you know, and there, there is selective use of aluminum and a lot of places. So it's not, it's not like there's no aluminum, but they haven't made the entire body out of aluminum. Yeah, right, like for dead, right. And, you know, GM has made some hay out of this with the trucks, especially, you know, when, shortly after the aluminum f150 came out in 2015, they ran some ads, where, you know, they took an F 150 and a Silverado, I think, and, you know, they put a took a front end loader and dumped, you know, rocks into the beds of each of those trucks. And, you know, one in the Ford, you know, you actually got some tearing, and the bed of the, the aluminum truck, whereas GM, it didn't do that. And now GM even offers a carbon fiber bed and in some of the trucks, so, you know, they are using aluminum selectively in various places. And, you know, it's it's basically, you know, smart use of the, you know, for every single component optimizing what is the right material to use, from a balance of weight and cost and strength that's needed? So, where do you need extra strength, they're using steel where, where you can, you know, where it's not as likely to be a problem, like the hood, you know, then use aluminum. So they're doing some really smart stuff, there Dan Roth 16:27 are composites, GM knows a lot about Sam Abuelsamid 16:29 composites too. So a lot of really smart stuff on this vehicle, you know, I think overall, really well executed, you know, the materials and the fit and finishes we've talked about before with I think, with the I think you had the suburban Rebecca. And, you know, the, you know, the the latest generation of trucks, you know, they're, you know, gyms, big trucks and utilities, you know, in the previous generation, we criticize them for a lot of hard plastic, they felt kind of cheap compared to the competition, no longer an issue. You know, the materials in this Yukon Denali, especially in in the Denali scene, the high, high end version, you really live up to the price point, which is good, because that price point is fairly Dan Roth 17:12 happy. It didn't seem like did Denali you expect to be expensive. So when you told us the price didn't seem that ridiculous. Sam Abuelsamid 17:20 Yeah. You know, I mean, given given Unknown Speaker 17:23 the price on the show. Sam Abuelsamid 17:28 Well, let's let's just dive right into that. So the Yukon Denali, the two wheel drive starts at a little over $68,000, which is, you know, it's not bad for, you know, a premium full size SUV, you know, you can get yukons for a lot less than that, you know, starting around 40,000. You know, the Denali is the premium luxury version, you know, and it's just like, you know, half a step below and escalate in terms of luxury. The, the one I drove, you know, when you add four wheel drive, you know that that's the 68,000 is for rear wheel drive, you go to four wheel drive, that adds several 1000 more. The one I drove, also had the the Denali ultimate package, which adds, and that was the only option or actually Well, one of only three options, and Dan Roth 18:17 it's not the ultimate package. If you can add things after it. It's an ultimate. Sam Abuelsamid 18:24 The other options were the $495 premium for the hunter metallic paint Oh, and 300 bucks for the floor console to power sliding center drawer. But Dan Roth 18:40 that's, yeah, that was cool. That sounds interesting. Sam Abuelsamid 18:44 But the the, the ultimate package is $11,255. And going back, you know, the base price of the four wheel drive Denali, $71,400. For $71,400, you don't get adaptive cruise control? I feel Dan Roth 19:05 like that's an oversight. Unknown Speaker 19:07 Yes. Sam Abuelsamid 19:08 This is this is an issue we've we've complained about with GM for a while now with their packaging of Driver Assist features. Yeah, in their vehicles, you know, they, they tend not to put them in a lot of these features, a lot of features that you can now get a standard equipment in, you know, $20,000 cars, right are not available, or there are they're part of extra costs packages on their premium vehicles. Dan Roth 19:35 Choice, it's not that it can't be done, and it would really matter. Sam Abuelsamid 19:40 For $71,000 you know, the adaptive cruise control, you know, the radar, I mean, the only thing you're really adding for that is the radar sensor and some extra software. Those those radar sensors that are used, they cost about $40. Dan Roth 19:53 Well, I mean, that's not insignificant over it. Sam Abuelsamid 19:56 No, it's not, but at 71,000 dollars to, you know, for for Denali. Yeah, you know, I would say, you know, bump it up by another 50 bucks and include the control standard, and Rebecca Lindland 20:09 I'm building one right now that's at fourth. I'm up to $84,000. Sam Abuelsamid 20:13 Yeah, my, the one I drove was at $3,795. Rebecca Lindland 20:17 Yeah, that's right. Exactly. Yeah. Wow. Oh, Sam Abuelsamid 20:19 and it doesn't have adaptive cruise control. But the ultimate package includes the adaptive cruise control. So you gotta buy that $11,000 option package to Rebecca Lindland 20:28 get the only way to get adaptive cruise control? Sam Abuelsamid 20:31 Yep, it's not available as a standalone option. Dan Roth 20:34 What I also find interesting about the Denali versus the 84, which I actually tend to like the 84 trim better because it looks a little bit a little bit more rugged. Yeah, I was gonna say aggressive it's interesting to me that they went through the trouble of doing two different instrument panels, two different dashboards for the two different yukons the Denali has a different dashboard than the 84 from what it looks like and Rebecca Lindland 21:05 Yeah, and I think it I think it should though, because they are two different customers Yeah, Dan Roth 21:10 it doesn't like it's the The 84 is a little bit more like the trucks or it's got the sort of the free floating screen and it maybe it's just a trick of the way the photography is but I don't think so because there's there's center vents hv AC vents in the picture of the Denali interior that extend from the the hood over the instrument panel and that is not there in the photo of the 84 interior. So the the center fence are actually in the middle of the center stack. So to me that's, that's one of those little touches that separates the Denali from the lower trims and there's there's a few of those that that GM does across the the lineup to really make the Denali feel something special, almost like three quarters of the way to an escalator. I just I find that that's the first time I've seen that is that they've gone to the trouble of two different dashboards. Sam Abuelsamid 22:06 Yeah, and, I mean, they've done a lot to distinguish the Denali from, you know, from the from the other trim levels, you know, including a completely unique front facia, you know, there's a lot of stuff that's different. Unknown Speaker 22:19 Overall, Sam Abuelsamid 22:21 you know, I mean, it's an expensive vehicle, but, you know, it's, it's not, it's not crazy expensive compared to a lot of other premium SUVs. I mean, if you go out, you know, and look at Mercedes GLS, you know, or BMW X seven, you're gonna pay at least that much anyway. So, you know, at $84,000 for this thing, it's not, I mean, yes, it's expensive, but it's not crazy expensive in the, in the context of the segment, and you can get a Yukon and get, you know, all the all the benefits of this upgraded Yukon, you know, at half this price. Yeah. Rebecca Lindland 22:57 Well, and, and also, from if you're comparing things like the BMW X seven, maintenance wise, it's probably going to be less Oh, yeah, over time as well. Sam Abuelsamid 23:04 Especially smallblock. VA, you know, yes. It's gonna be a much better, much better option for you. Dan Roth 23:12 Yeah, I think GM is has figured out their push rod bending issues from the Yeah, displacement. cylinder deactivation, I found that out when I was looking for trucks, it's like, oh, yeah, sometimes they they just they bend push rods, though. And then, you know, you got to take it apart a little bit and replaced some some lifters and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it's Sam Abuelsamid 23:31 easy enough. I mean, yeah, it's it's not a big job. Dan Roth 23:36 It's not it's not terrible. But it's, yeah. Sam Abuelsamid 23:40 So yeah, this is a handsome looking vehicle, you know, it's got the power running boards. Dan Roth 23:47 How do you how do we feel about power running boards? Sam Abuelsamid 23:50 I liked them. You know, I think, you know, if, certainly, you know, with a big vehicle like this, it certainly helps to have running boards, you know, to be able to step up into it. I mean, for me, personally, I can step up into it. Especially if you have the air suspension, it lowers down anyway, when you park it. But I don't personally have a challenge, stepping up into it. But, you know, somebody like Rebecca, or even my wife, who's, you know, she's a little bit taller than you are Rebecca, but, you know, it definitely helps to have those running boards. And then, you know, the fact that they do retract up against the body, you know, as soon as you close the doors, you know, definitely helps. You know, if you're going through snow and everything, and you know, keeping you they don't get as dirty and it's better for aerodynamics. So there's a lot of a lot of benefits to it. Yes, it does add complexity. It's another thing to potentially bring just Dan Roth 24:45 yeah, here in the briny north. But that's okay. I just Yeah, I do like the functionality. It's just Sam Abuelsamid 24:52 Yeah, yeah. I mean, from a functional standpoint, it's definitely a benefit. You know, and I mean, if you're driving through deep snow, you know, Not having that running board hanging down there. You know, that's, you know if it's up tucked up against the body, you know it's going to be it's going to be easier to get through deep snow than it is if it if it is hanging down. Yeah, it's one more thing to drag through that snow. So yeah, I think I think that's good. You know, under Denali, they have just two engine options. This year. They have the 6.2 liter V eight a bit, the big v eight. And then which is actually a 15 $100 Premium over the standard engine, which is the diesel the three liter diesel Dan Roth 25:32 the diesel is standard. Sam Abuelsamid 25:35 The diesel is standard. Wow, yeah, the five three is not available in the Denali this year. So the the three liter diesel which is a fantastic engine, we've talked about it before it's really smooth, really efficient, quiet, very quiet. Personally, I think if I was going to be buying a Denali, I would just go with the diesel because all the things Dan Roth 25:56 I aspire to be smooth Sam Abuelsamid 26:01 six to V eight you know is a great engine Yeah, it's a lovely engine. Man is it Dan Roth 26:07 well what did you get for fuel economy? Sam Abuelsamid 26:09 14 miles per gallon Dan Roth 26:10 excellent. Sam Abuelsamid 26:11 Yeah, Dan Roth 26:12 that's what I got with the 7.3 well actually got a 12 and a half I baby did a bit Sam Abuelsamid 26:18 you know it's it's it's EPA rated at 14 City 16 or 19 Highway 16 combined. You know, it was cold here. I know when I had it I only managed for just over 14 combined. You know I did some highway driving as well and Dan Roth 26:35 it sounds good on on ramps to you get that Sam Abuelsamid 26:38 especially with the quad exhaust Unknown Speaker 26:40 Yeah, it's Sam Abuelsamid 26:41 got the quad exhaust pipes. Rebecca Lindland 26:43 The other thing too with the with the diesel is the drag the driving range. You know, it's 750 miles for the Yukon XL. Sam Abuelsamid 26:51 Well, it definitely exceeds the range of an average human bladder. I Dan Roth 26:54 was gonna say like three stops I you know, that's crazy. Unknown Speaker 26:59 Wow. Yeah, I Rebecca Lindland 27:00 mean, that's pretty impressive. Sam Abuelsamid 27:01 You know if you're gonna tell Yeah, I was gonna ask you about the towing. I mean, I didn't do any telling but you know if you're going to be doing telling on a regular basis the diesel is also you know, it's it's got I think it's got a lower I'm not sure exactly what the towing capacity is. I think it's around 1000 pounds so Dan Roth 27:21 one of the reasons why you would think that the diesel diesel is typically our a tow option but yeah, you know, there's there's heat management there's actually extra weight with the diesel because of the the exhaust after treatment stuff so and I dug into the the Jeep Gladiator diesel. And that's where the Curiosity started, like, why would the diesel is it not probably not going to tow as much as it does with the pentastar. And I'm assuming those reasons are similar here, there's only so much cooling you can get out of out of whatever they've got, you know, frontal area and stuff. And, you know, the weight does play a factor too. Sam Abuelsamid 27:59 But on the on the flip side, if you are towing, you know, the nature of the diesel, when it's under heavy load, it doesn't. The fuel economy does not degrade nearly as much as it does with a gas engine. Yeah, you know, if you're towing an 8000 pound trailer with that six, two, instead of 14 MPG, you're probably going to get about seven or eight. If you're doing the same thing with a diesel, you know, instead of 23 miles per gallon, you're gonna get maybe 21 or 22, it tends to the fuel economy tends to hold up a lot better if you're towing. So, if you're, you know, if you're thinking about Denali, and you want to get and you want to and you plan to do towing, if you've got a boat or you got you know, some snowmobiles or jet skis or something that you're going to, you know, tell on a regular basis. You know, if you're only towing once or twice a year doesn't it's not going to make a difference, but if you're towing regularly, you should definitely consider getting the diesel instead and i think that's that's why GM offers the diesel as and the cert The same thing is certainly true for Ford on their trucks, you know, and and for Chrysler, you know, they offer the diesel engine because for those people that tow a lot it does make a big difference. Dan Roth 29:08 Yeah, yeah, well and you know, these are these are great vehicles for towing the long wheelbase is going to help you out it's gonna feel really good. You know, it's not gonna not gonna get wagged by the tail as much. You if you're going to tell pay attention to the numbers because this is this is the thing that we do here as as journalists who don't tow a lot is we look at the maximum number that wow, that's, that's excellent. It usually has a few asterisks next to it like you have to figure out what the payload is so that you can figure out your gross combined vehicle weight rating. And so yes, it can tow 8000 pounds with this very specific exact configuration, usually two wheel drive with the class three hitch and the towing package and stuff. So if you wanted like four wheel drive and Max towing that may be something that is is not what vailable so you got to look at it. Um, that's, that's my treatise on Yeah, but Rebecca Lindland 30:04 I do like the GM. I mean, and others have this as well, the charting package that they have the visibility that they've done the cameras all the angles. Yeah, I mean, I learned to tow with GM, ironically, nearly at the turn of the century. And Dan Roth 30:21 I'll call you back cuz I suck it back up a trailer, I'm terrible. Rebecca Lindland 30:25 Well, and and the improvements, you know, over time have been really significant. And the others offer this as well. But what I like about this, this Yukon Denali is that, you know, this is a, this is a very good example of and we've talked about this before, when people ask us what's the best vehicle? And it depends, right. And this is, so this is such a good vehicle for people that need this kind of capability, that this passenger room, these interior features, even the driving range, the diesel, the towing, it checks so many of those boxes for, for that, that lifestyle. And so, you know, this is one of the great things about so much variety, this vehicle is not for everybody, but it's not intended to be for everybody, it is intended for this particular customer. And that's why I think they've done a really good job of keeping that customer in mind. Sam Abuelsamid 31:22 Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the, the extra length that they added, you know, with this generation, I said they made it about four, four or five inches longer than the previous generation, you know, makes a big difference inside, you know, in that third row seat, adults can sit comfortably in that third row. Now, you know, it's not just the, you know, the seating position, you're not having that knees up seating position anymore. But it's also, you know, there's, there's actually a very more than adequate leg room in that third row. You know, for me to sit back there. Yeah, you know, and fairly comfortably. And then, you know, behind the third row, there's 25 and a half cubic feet of cargo space behind the third row. Wow, you know, which is very impressive, you know, especially compared to some past generations of, you know, the standard wheelbase Yukon, and Tahoe, you know, they tended to, you know, they push that third row back, and so you tended to not have very much cargo space behind that third row. So if you had to use all three rows of seating, there wasn't much room for any other stuff Dan Roth 32:26 in the back. This is the, this is the longest, longest length, right? This this is like a suburban length? Or is no this, Sam Abuelsamid 32:34 this is the 25 and a half cubic feet is for the standard length. Then, if you get the Yukon XL, the long version, yeah, now you have 41 and a half cubic feet behind the third row. Yes, you know, and then if you hold down both, you know, the, behind the, if you fold both the second and third row seats, in the standard one, you have a three bedroom 323 cubic feet, and then 145, behind, you know, in the long wheelbase, so, you know, that, you know, if you need that space, then you know, these are, these are fantastic options. Rebecca Lindland 33:09 So, it's a vehicle that a family can grow into, right. So if you've got, yeah, you know, if you've got middle, you know, young kids 678 years old, by the time that they're 15, and 16, they can they can fit and they can still fit in that third row. I Dan Roth 33:22 mean, you saw my grocery order yesterday, and Sam Abuelsamid 33:27 that's the 1617 year olds can also, you know, fit in the third row of a minivan. Well, Rebecca Lindland 33:32 yeah, but not nearly as sexy. Dan Roth 33:36 This is the thing as a, I'm realizing this now, Rebecca Lindland 33:40 I'm not telling as much. Dan Roth 33:42 That's true. Yeah, I'm realizing it's Sam Abuelsamid 33:43 this that that you know, it all depends. Yeah, what are your needs Dan Roth 33:48 and as a as a family owner, your needs are really variable and and they can change really quickly. And so, you know, if your family does if you do vacation in a certain way or you you you do certain activities and stuff and you just you need a vehicle that can handle anything and everything kind of added at the drop of a hat and that's part of what makes crossovers and SUVs very popular is they can handle just about any weather conditions, most terrains that sane people are going to drive on. And they have you know, their good comfort good cargo room. There's a reason why they're popular and and I see that in my own life experiences. So no wonder why is populate? No, I love sports cars, but the practical decision is to not buy a sports car it would be to buy something that's big and ready for just about anything and that's what that's what these are now Sam Abuelsamid 34:45 now as the valid lefty here, I'm gonna step in and make a comment. You know, that, you know, the reality is that, you know, people buy vehicles like this, you know, in many cases because they they want to have that capability, you know, in case they ever need. It's definitely irrational. But but most of the time, they don't need that it's just capable. I mean, yes, I, I acknowledged there are absolutely cases, there are a lot of customers out there that need this kind of capable this kind of capability on a regular basis. But I very often also see these vehicles running around with just one person in there. That was last week when I was driving. Even even people that own them, you know, and, you know, if, if you only need a vehicle like this, you know, two or three times a year, there are options to rent these. Rebecca Lindland 35:38 Like that. It's too rational. Sam Abuelsamid 35:41 I know, I know, what's an absolutely American attitude. Dan Roth 35:44 But part of it too, is like, as, as you're just dealing with the chaos of a multi child family. And as they get older, and they do their things, and they go their places. Like it's just, sometimes you buy that comfort, and you're like, yeah, I'll only use it twice a year, but I've got it all the time. Instead of like having to now figure out a rental and you like, if you've ever rented a car, it's a bit of a hassle, even if the rental, you know, office is like a couple miles away, it's just a pain. And I get it, it's still it's it's where you're paying for the convenience and, and polluting more and all of those things. So what's more American than that, though? I get it. And you're right. I think it is. It's an irrational kind of comfort level that we're buying. But it's also like, there's a reason why we like them. And Rebecca Lindland 36:33 it also it I mean, it takes a family through multiple life stages. It takes an owner, I should say, through multiple life stages, right? That's the thing is that this is, you know, if you've got even even three kids, which is not unreasonable, this is a vehicle that you know, and then if you've got three kids, they've got friends as well, you know, and that's the thing is it's pile and pile out. I mean, when I was growing up with one eight, my parents would have killed Dan Roth 37:00 seven siblings. Unknown Speaker 37:01 I have seven siblings. I Dan Roth 37:02 never mentioned that. No. Rebecca Lindland 37:05 I'm the youngest. And by far the smallest. You get Dan Roth 37:10 to ride in the back of like Oldsmobile custom cruiser, right. The seat. Rebecca Lindland 37:13 Oh, we had the panel van. We had we had that the panel stationwagon. Excellent. And yeah, we had a we had a giant. I'll have to ask my sisters because obviously they're. So my next closest sibling is 18 months older than me. And then I've got siblings that are you know, 10 1213 years older than me. But I'll ask my sister who is five years older than me. She was the one that mostly drove me around, you know, obviously until I could drive myself and then everyone else was at college. So yeah, I have siblings that I never really live with. Wow. Yeah. Because they were off. They were off to college before. I was like really aware of what was happening. I was just shoved in any vehicle. I could fit anywhere. That's good. There you go Dan Roth 37:54 with your own little research, like focus group for generational experience to like your your siblings. That's that's a you've got siblings that are a generation older than you basically, Rebecca Lindland 38:05 you know, every everyone else in my family are baby boomers. Wow. Unknown Speaker 38:11 That's right. Rebecca Lindland 38:12 Well, and they again, they span you know, a baby boomer, you know, the the younger there, they tend to be younger baby boomers. But uh, yeah, no, we have a big family and my four brothers first, and then two sisters. And then my brother David, and then me. So I, you know, my mother actually never drove in a minivan when I took her to when I took my parents to the Chrysler Town and Country launch in California and San Diego in 2005, or six or something. That was the first time I've ever been in a minivan. Sam Abuelsamid 38:46 I probably would have loved to have something like that or something like this Denali, you know, when you guys were younger? Rebecca Lindland 38:50 Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, and, and we, my father got a new car through his work every couple of years. So we were often in dad's new car, but I but we still got cars pretty frequently. But, you know, that's why I look at this and I think of those life stages. And I think of, you know, when my brothers would come home from from college or from wherever they were working at the time, and, and suddenly you need this and that, you know, that a lasticity of this vehicle. I is, is really paramount in many in many families, especially again, if you have if you've done something crazy, like have a children. Sam Abuelsamid 39:31 I know a friend of mine, Dave derivates, who used to be in PR at that GM. He's at Ford now. You know, he is what? Seven, Rebecca Lindland 39:40 seven. Okay. You might want to Unknown Speaker 39:47 check those out. Dan Roth 39:48 I think you said once you get over that three kid hump like it's probably just like, it's totally irrelevant. Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid 39:55 But anyway, back to the fact that Dan Roth 39:57 I wasn't going down the rabbit hole this time. Sam Abuelsamid 40:01 From a functional standpoint, you know, it's it's, it's great, you know, it's got, you know, the latest generation of Jim's infotainment system, which works really well. You know, it's very responsive, great screen in there. Speaking of screens, we'll have some more discussion that later and next week, I'll have some complaints about a screen in another car. But but this one worked really well. It's got wireless Android Auto and Apple CarPlay support, which, you know, I've had this in a number of vehicles. Now, it's a great feature to have, because I can I get in the car, just drop my phone on the wireless charging pad. And, and, you know, everything connects, and it's, it's good. I do have one complaint about the interior design on the shift mechanism on the side. So as, as manufacturers have moved over to electronic shifters, shifting systems to their further automatic transmissions, designers have come up with all kinds of different ways to actuate you know, whether you want Park reverse neutral drive, and the one that's in this in the Yukon, I don't like Rebecca Lindland 41:09 it's the same one in the suburban right, where it's like pushing lumbers. And Sam Abuelsamid 41:13 I'm not sure I haven't driven I suppose. Yeah, I think I'm Rebecca Lindland 41:15 looking at it. Dan Roth 41:17 Very similar, different shaped buttons, right, like so well, Sam Abuelsamid 41:20 yeah. On the on the Yukon, you have a vertical stack switches that are much like the the window switches that we've become accustomed to over the last 20 years where, you know, at least on the windows switches, you know, you push down on it to put the window down, you stick your finger, put your fingertip underneath and pull up to put the windows up. On this one, it's similar to that there's no push down, you pull the switches towards you to activate, you know, to activate park or reverse or drive. Only the neutral one is one that you push. And I don't know, I just I did not like the way it feels the way it actuates it's, you know, it's a design, but I didn't like it. Rebecca Lindland 42:05 Yeah, I had it in the I have it in the head of the suburban as well. And then they for economics they balance for for aesthetics. Rather, they put a on the so on the right side of the screen. In the suburban, they put this like, random pocket, which actually is very handy for face masks and stuff like that. But it was kind of weird. It was like What, what was it looked like? I was wondering what was supposed to be in there. But yes, I had I had to kind of practice and get used to it and figure out like, and I wanted. Yeah, I think they all levered out except for the neutral. Right? Unknown Speaker 42:41 That's what you said, Sam Abuelsamid 42:41 Yeah. Rebecca Lindland 42:43 Well, yes, pushed in, which, you know, anytime, anytime that we test these vehicles, that's like, the first thing I practice in my driveway is how to shift because they're all different, you know, and, and my, if I park in my upper driveway, when I back out into my street, it's it's not a busy street, and it's even less so now. But it's a little bit of a blind corner, somebody's not paying attention. So I need to get into drive as soon as possible. And so I always practice, and some are easier than others. And this was, it wasn't that it was complicated. It's just one more thing to learn. Well, yeah, Dan Roth 43:16 it's Yeah, I think that's part of his, you know, what they're trying to do, and and the designers, they get this brief that they have to then interpret into reality and say, like, you know, you only have this much space, and you've got to make the shift, function fit in there. And so they're, they're kind of doing the best they can with that. But it's almost like nobody stops to really try it. And I don't I know that's not true. But I wish there was a way to really get user feedback, and have it be just some some way of considering, like, how have we made this harder for people because it's, it's an easy thing, once you are close to it. So you spend, you know, four years developing a vehicle by the end of that development cycle, you're gonna you're gonna shrug about it, because it's, it's gonna be like second nature to you, but then the person who buys the car and is used to I mean, you could just use a column shift. I know it's not not sexy. Rebecca Lindland 44:22 But no, you can't use a column in it, and it certainly is. Tesla has a column shift. Really. Sam Abuelsamid 44:32 I mean, there's you know, it's it's a, it was originally aired, but, you know, I think they may make their own now But yeah, I mean, you just tap it down to put it in Drive. Tap it. Yeah. Rebecca Lindland 44:50 Like there are panels. Dan Roth 44:56 There are ways right and if it's not if if it's on the column like you You know, there's there is that space where the mounting point is not used, I understand that it's, it's again, you know, it doesn't look innovative. And that's part of what you're trying to do right with the brand new cars is Look, look how innovative we are. And and so there's some reinventing the wheel that goes on and you don't want to pull from the parts bin for the Denali for sure. You don't want to grab, like the shifter out of the bolt, you know, is a reimagining of the corner set, Sam Abuelsamid 45:25 although the bolt was a part spin unit that they pulled from Cadillac, Dan Roth 45:29 now we'll see that it fits. Sam Abuelsamid 45:31 The bolt shifter was originally used on the Cadillacs, Dan Roth 45:33 it's it's this is we're never gonna get insight into this decision making process. It's just the result of it has. Sam Abuelsamid 45:43 Yeah, I mean, it's just I just, I don't like the way that particular shift system works. You know, and they haven't they have a similar one in the in the Acadia. Rebecca Lindland 45:53 Yeah. Was it the feel of it? Would you say no, Sam Abuelsamid 45:55 it's just it, doesn't it? It's never really felt very natural, or there's that word intuitive? Yeah, I always find you know that I have to look around this journey. To figure it out. Well, Dan Roth 46:11 that's the buttons are, they're all the same. And they're in different places. So that's, you know, you think about a floor shift or a column shift. And it's one thing, you can reach out and you can grab it and you know, you've got it and then you move it positionally. And that tells you what what gear you're in. This is four different buttons, let alone the manual selection, which is another rocker, like, yeah, that's confusing. If you're, if you're trying to do it by by touch. I think one of the things drivers don't realize is how much they operate the vehicle by touch without looking until you get confused, and then you wind up looking at stuff way too much. And you hit things. Yeah, I Rebecca Lindland 46:55 certainly have that issue with plenty of center console shifters or, you know, a lot of these things, even if even if it's a handle like toys at the Honda, right, the Honda Odyssey has it kind of like on the on the on the console. Right? Right. And so you still have to kind of look but I know what you mean, like with the Honda one, once it's as low as it goes, you know, you're in Drive. And so it's not as, as opposed to the ones that I that really messed me up are the ones that go into manual mode, you know, by by moving it over. So at the same time, you've got to shift it to get it into drive and then all of a sudden you're in manual mode and you find out when you're at 7000 RPM Dan Roth 47:34 Why am I getting the rev limiter Sam Abuelsamid 47:39 rolling forward down the driveway. Rebecca Lindland 47:42 For sure. So no i think you know, the challenge when they're making these decisions, I think is what are what's the alternative and we don't know what this looked like at the very beginning I mean and the worst thing you want to do is engineer by compromise by there is some element of saying okay, we know this is the space that we have to put some kind of mechanism in and there is an aesthetic you know design standpoint certainly as well but I didn't know I kind of got used to it after a while again I didn't love it but it wasn't a deal breaker for me you Sam Abuelsamid 48:16 know i mean it was a month that Yeah, yeah or six months you know, it would probably be fine but so Rebecca Lindland 48:24 but the Acadia one I recall that was lower down on the on right on the center console and my issue was that with that was that sometimes things were in the way because like I would have put like a face mask or my phone or something you know or a piece of paper or something. So that was my complaint with the position of where it was in the Acadia which I definitely think they should have figured out in testing and focus groups and all that stuff that they are supposed to do that that is supposed to you know, get this kind of stuff out of the of the equation but that was that was as I recall, that was one of my complaints with where the buttons were on that Acadia which was very, very controversial one that came out anyway. Sam Abuelsamid 49:06 Yeah. So aside from that, yeah, great truck, great, great SUV. Rebecca Lindland 49:12 All that being said, Dan Roth 49:13 Well, I'm kind of jealous that you two have had a chance to drive this and I haven't because it does look lovely. And I do like big trucks big SUVs. Rebecca Lindland 49:24 And you cannot lie I cannot Sam Abuelsamid 49:28 want to get into the escalate with a 37 inch display. Dan Roth 49:33 Yeah, big displays are not my thing but Unknown Speaker 49:35 I Dan Roth 49:36 will get to the we'll get to that later the displays. But you know, Rebecca, you and I, we actually so we both have the same almost the same car this week and the other car you've got I had not too long ago so why don't why don't you take the rest of the garage segment and I'll just kick in with my charming witty repartee about the Supercross track and The K five gt line. Rebecca Lindland 50:03 Hey, why don't I do the cross check first because I have we all driven this now. Sam Yeah, no, I've Sam Abuelsamid 50:09 not I've haven't had any Subarus for a while. And this Dan Roth 50:11 is Crosstrek sport, right? Rebecca Lindland 50:14 Yeah, I have the limited. Limited. I had the correct yes, I had this sport. So I went on the launch. Actually, this is one of the few launches that I went on this year. You know, it certainly I think was back in September. And, and I liked the car then. And I like it now. It's just what we're doing. Exactly. So, so what I liked about the one that I had was the cross trek limited. The overall cross track line, there's five models there, they're the base cross track actually has a six speed manual transmission to it. That's a 2.0 liter, four cylinder engine. And that that starts at about 22,000. It's got some nice bells and whistles. Of course, it has all wheel drive and such. But anything above the the there's the premium, which is 23,000 as a couple of bells and whistles, but really not much. Where in my mind, for our listeners, I would start at the Crosstrek sport, I had the limited and there's actually the Crosstrek hybrid, which is limited availability. And I frankly, I haven't done a lot of research on to where it's available, but it is out there for particularly for you know what we would describe as the typical Subaru owner, this may be a priority for them, which I appreciate. So the limited that I had has a 2.5 liter four cylinder engine in it. It's got about it's got 182 horsepower, 176 pound foot torque, I know I should know that roll off the tongue it never will. And this one has a CBT with an HP manual mode. And I really liked it, you know all cvts struggle sometimes but this was super Zippy on the highway. It's I love this size vehicle. It's definitely only five passenger, probably ideally four. But it's just a great runabout it's got room in the back. It's you know, so it's a lot of that flexibility that we were talking about with the Yukon, but you're not hauling around a Japanese apartment when you don't need it. You know, this is just that like fun, you know, ideal size for certainly for a single maybe one kid kind of family but I just I love this this is my my personal vehicle my Buick Encore Coco is about this size and and I just love this size vehicle especially for that urban suburban lifestyle that I have. And, you know, so it just it just did a lot of things really well. The infotainment system, I was actually pretty good. I didn't really have any definitive issues with it, which is a miracle for me, of course, as always, and I feel like the features in it are really nice, you know, it's got especially again, I'm at the I'm at the top of the line with the limited so it's got some nice leather interior. It's got an 18 inch alloy wheels. They do have a vegan interior as well Dan Roth 53:16 as I'm sorry, that's what I had in a sport. It's called Star Trek's it's Rebecca Lindland 53:20 Yes. Which is really good. Dan Roth 53:22 It did a lot. But it's funny the sport is basically like a less luxury outfitted version of the limited they're really almost the same car. Rebecca Lindland 53:33 They are Yes Very much so and they've done a good job with saying you know if you want that sport that is going to be something that is more athletic, definitely less luxurious, by very lifestyle oriented, you know, and they all have what's called what again from from sport limited and the hybrid they have what's called x mode which unfortunately I didn't really get to use because it's more like deep snow mud kind of situation. But it's there again if you need it and unfortunately we didn't have any snow for me to try out because that would have been a lot of fun. Yeah, Dan Roth 54:09 I find that because that basically locks the the difference. Yeah, center differential. I usually try to drive the cars that have that kind of feature like four wheel drive and stuff. I try to drive them into the snowbank in front of the house in the winter. I try to get them stuck. And the lock mode like that's really all that most people need is like the occasional all wheel drive that you can just you can lock you don't need auto or anything like that. You just hit lock mode and you get all four wheels sort of pulling for you and you can get out of those common situations where you might get stuck. Rebecca Lindland 54:40 Yeah, because when I when I went on the launch, we did take it off road and you know again the size is super fun off road because you can fit it in places and that you know without getting stuck and so you know it goes around. I mean there's a great opportunity to to take it off road get some get a little more On the tires. From a comfort standpoint, I think the only thing that surprised and disappointed me a little bit is that there's no heated steering wheel, which I know is silly. But for people, you know, this is very much of a New England car, right? You know, like, this is like, I would have expected a heated steering wheel in this thing, I'm not gonna lie, and I would have paid for it. Dan Roth 55:19 Today for an hour. It's I like it. I just, it's a feature I want in my next car. Rebecca Lindland 55:23 So I remember, I think it must have been 2010. My first BMW X three, that was the first time that I had a heated steering wheel. And my German colleagues thought it was the stupidest thing in the entire world. And I was like, You just wait, you wait, and now they've taken over the world. Dan Roth 55:38 Right? Exactly. And I really found that the I feel much the same way about the Crosstrek it's just it's a super handy size. It's basically an impressive hatch that's got a little bit more ride height. I love the the description as a runabout I think that's perfect. It's it's one of those, like, Sam, you were saying, you know, most people rationally don't need the SUV, do everything. This is the perfect example. This card basically just does just about everything you need. Most of the time, it's a lot more efficient than a suburban and it has that all weather capability that again, you probably were buying comfort, you don't need it most of the time. It's going to be great on just winter tires. But it's it's there. If you need and it'll probably fit in your garage. It'll Unknown Speaker 56:24 Absolutely. Dan Roth 56:26 These days are bigger than then they, you know, seem anyway, but Sam Abuelsamid 56:30 yeah. Well, yeah. It was one of the you know, we've mentioned Jill salmonella before. One of the things that I like that she does, every week when she gets cars, is she actually test you know, test to see if they will fit in her garage. Yeah, and a lot of the big trucks and SUVs are too long. Yeah. Rebecca Lindland 56:48 Yeah. She's in Chicago. She she's an urban Chicago. I think she Sam Abuelsamid 56:52 just I think they just moved. I don't know exactly where they are in Chicago. You know how urban or suburban they are? Unknown Speaker 56:58 Yeah. Yeah, she Rebecca Lindland 57:01 does have a standard sized garage. Sam Abuelsamid 57:03 And a lot of these things don't fit. Rebecca Lindland 57:05 Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's a great test. It she's and she's on. She's on tik tok as well. And, and she does a lot of really good things on that platform. And so I would encourage people to check out Jill simonelli ci m i and then it goes from there. Dan Roth 57:22 We so it keeps going to have a garage shoved over 20 years. It's like, Unknown Speaker 57:28 Oh, Rebecca Lindland 57:28 I have a garage is filled with crap. Sam Abuelsamid 57:32 garages is reserved for for the Miata and my wife's car. Dan Roth 57:36 Yes. Yeah. But, ya know, that is a good point. It basically does fit just about anywhere, and it handles those teenager grocery loads pretty pretty well, because I certainly used it for that. You know, and it's, it has a real cross generational appeal. You know, folks that are younger, and just sort of looking for the first car are gonna need something that's kind of all purpose, perfect for that. And it's priced really well for that, or, you know, folks like my parents who are not going to be buying more cars, but they need something that's just going to get them there and isn't going to be enormous, it's going to be easy to drive easy to get in and out of that extra ride height helps you when you've got older hips. You know, so it's it's just, you know, Subaru making a really competitive product. It's it's pretty compelling and it has the eyesight, forward collision warning and dynamic cruise and all of those those goodies. Rebecca Lindland 58:33 Yeah, you know, one thing about that, I'm glad you brought that up, because I remember on the launch, I I was kind of I was it was a little distracting because the eyesight requires a pretty large case, a box, just to the left of the rearview mirror. And I remember in the launch, sitting in and being like, what is that and once I figured out what it was it wasn't distracting, but actually didn't have that same feeling in this particular vehicle. I remember looking at it, but and part of what's I knew what it was. But that is, you know, the visibility in this vehicle is really excellent. I will say that you have to just just train your eye and just be like, Oh, that's the eyesight thing, because it is pretty bulky. Sam Abuelsamid 59:14 Yeah, initially. So for those not familiar with eyesight, you know, instead of using radar for the adaptive cruise control, like like most manufacturers do. Subaru has a system that uses stereo cameras. And most forward view cameras for the Forward Collision Alert. They're just a single, it's a monovision camera mounted right above the mirror. This one has two cameras on either side of the mirror and you have to have that distance between them that they use using the parallax to estimate the distance to the vehicle in front of you. And so that's why it's a larger package than what you typically find in most modern cars. Rebecca Lindland 59:54 Yeah, and we spoke I remember when I had this vehicle we spoke more at length about this in a previous wheel bearing fair number you gave that really helpful explanation as well. So, but you know, just, I mean, overall, it was just a fun vehicle. And I don't know if I mentioned so the one that I had was 31,000. And change delivered destinations just over $1,000. And as, as Dan, you just said, you know, the pricing on it is really competitive. You're, I feel like you're getting a lot of good value for 20 to 30,000. And, you know, pretty decent fuel economy. It's rated for 30 for highway 27. City, I got a little bit less than that. But I also I know that I have more idle time, I was taking quite a few pictures. And I had the engine running because I kept moving the car because my typical the beaches is blocked off now and so I have to kind of maneuver where I want to take some pictures. But I think I was kind of in that like mid 20s range. So it wasn't fantastic. Yeah, but it wasn't terrible. Generally Dan Roth 1:00:58 just expect that a Subaru is gonna get about 25 mpg. Rebecca Lindland 1:01:02 Yes. Yeah, I think that's a reasonable assumption. I do remember also, um, around shortly after this vehicle came out, I did an article back when I was writing for Forbes about a perfect vehicles in a post Sandy world, right after Hurricane Sandy hit the East Coast. And I remember the the ride height on this was about in that eight to nine inch range. And that was perfect for kind of maneuvering around tree branches that were there a lot and and that fuel economy came into play as well, because it was pretty good. And so it just this was, I remember, this was one of my favorite vehicles for that kind of do everything go anywhere without being burdened by something so huge that it was it got in the way so you know, I just it was just a good experience. I was kind of sad to see it go because I just liked it. Dan Roth 1:01:55 Yeah, but the one thing I I think it leaves an impression with me is like it does all those things very well. I just wish it were a little quieter. It's gonna Yeah, I can get Rebecca Lindland 1:02:04 behind that. But I didn't, but I kept but I've had worse cars. That's true. Because I know, I definitely have had cars where I wanted, I kept making sure that the windows are up. Yeah. And that's never good. The other thing too is, you know, I I get I have the opportunity to drive on both 95 which is has trucks, and the very picturesque route 15 or Merritt Parkway, which is a two lane cars only road. And you know, that's a very beautiful drive. You know, it's it's, there's a lot of trees, and it's quieter from a vehicle standpoint. But it's but it's very, very hilly as well. And this did well, I mean, again, that a little bit of a wind going up some of the steepest hills there. But then when I was on 95, I didn't feel like I was going to be swallowed up by a truck anymore than in any other vehicle. And so it's always that balance to see like, how does this perform? I will say I don't think I took the Miata on 95 because I was afraid the spirit of bravery Come on. Dan Roth 1:03:09 Let's let's move to the the key. Okay, fine. Yeah, because that's another car. I think we both feel is a i just i i saw i got into it. And I would look around and it's just this is the GT lines is not the GT. It's the GT line, which is apparently different. And I just looked around, and then I drove it and it's so beautifully executed it. I looked at the prices $28,000 is the bottom line on the sticker for mine. And I'm it's just an astoundingly good car for that money. Yes. Rebecca Lindland 1:03:43 And I think mine is 31 because I have all wheel drive. Do you Dan Roth 1:03:45 have? I don't think I do, I think Yeah, and it's the one. Rebecca Lindland 1:03:50 And people everywhere. I have gone with this thing. Whether it's downtown Greenwich, my pizza guy came out and looked at it. Everybody comments on this thing? Because my postman Actually, he knocked on my door to talk to me about this. Because it's a gorgeous putty gray, that we were trying to figure out how to describe it. I mean, it's sort of that like, I've heard it described as like that China gray, but it's that like, it hasn't really rich almost flat. Yeah, but but dynamic. That doesn't make any sense. I realize, you know, and you have the same color. Sam Abuelsamid 1:04:28 Yeah, it's kind of like I think it's similar to the gray that Mazda uses on the three as well. Rebecca Lindland 1:04:34 Yeah, and Audi Audi has it because there's an a4 at the bottom of the street that I told my postman about to go to look at is well, Sam Abuelsamid 1:04:42 it doesn't have that sparkle of a metallic paint or a lot of other colors. But Rebecca Lindland 1:04:46 right the clear coat is the clear coat is very muted in terms of real metallic finish to it but it's Dan Roth 1:04:55 gorgeous. It's really really sharp and and with the GT line. You know, you get the alloys that really get set off nicely against against that monochromatic kind of body treatment. And, you know, it's just there's just really, really careful design work. That's, you know, it's striking. And it's not expensive, you know that the without, it looks expensive does it looks expensive, but without some of the options that might have this would have been a $26,000 car, which is like, Yeah, Rebecca Lindland 1:05:23 no, absolutely, it really is. I'm looking real quick because there is a difference in You're right, the GT line versus GT. So the GT the GT line, which is what we have is the 1.6 liter four cylinder, the GT is the 2.5 liter for Dan Roth 1:05:40 gt line is based on the LX s trim level. Okay, whereas the GT is its own trim event as it has turbo 2.5 that has, it's almost Rebecca Lindland 1:05:50 like the GT lies more cosmetic, and the GT is actual performance, Dan Roth 1:05:53 which is fine, because a lot of times people just want the looks and it looks great. It's and it's great to drive, I was really pleased with it dynamically, I took it down some of my favorite twisty back roads, and it was really satisfying. I honestly didn't feel the need for more power in it. It might actually be more of a mess dynamically if it has. Rebecca Lindland 1:06:16 So I The only complaint that I had was I did not love the exhaust note when it was in the standard mode. So when it's in its sound, and I mentioned this on the last podcast that I was driving a car that sort of sounded like a motorboat. I didn't love that. I felt like they missed the opportunity to add some bass now it's better when I put it in sports you Dan Roth 1:06:37 have been driving it in sport mode so Rebecca Lindland 1:06:38 all sorts of fun but I would be curious as if if you have that same but that was that was my only complaint with it. I was like what is that knowing like, Oh my goodness, that's a terrible it just I don't know it didn't have a throat Enos I felt like it was missing the throat Enos that I wanted, and probably exists in the GT I but but the the GT line. I didn't love that initial exhaust note. Again, putting it in Sport, Sport Plus, all that goes away. It's tons of fun. And I love the fact that you can change the driving mode on the fly. And you feel it right away. As soon as you like, as soon as you put it into sport, you feel the car tighten up a little bit. You feel the RPMs you know, they get a little bit more exaggerated. The steering tightens up everything kind of gets more fun. Dan Roth 1:07:23 Yeah. And that's the way it steers the way it rides and handles. Was was impressive to me. That's that's where I think all those Germans they've bought have done a really good job. Because it does it actually reminds me of the way sobs used to drive and and he has a different styling that sort of makes him stand out. So it's got that Savi feel to me and maybe it's just me sort of tying it to that other other brand that has that discipline but has its own own sort of way of going about it. Yeah, like sobs used to do. But yeah, it was it's a really pleasant car. I like how the interior is. It's not leather. It's It's It's full leather, which is fine. It looks nice. It's leather and cloth seat trim. Looks really good. The seats are pretty comfortable. This mine has the the red interior package, which I guess is Yes, yeah. Mine has that to gt line thing. Looks great against the gray paint. Rebecca Lindland 1:08:16 Yeah, and I love rails are fabulous. Dan Roth 1:08:18 Yeah, it's just it's thought thoughtfully designed, you know, like, you talk about having a place for your phone is something that a lot of cars, sometimes miss on. This has a nice key sheet charger, in a wireless charger right there in the center console, you just pop, you know, pop your phone right down into it, and it it is out of the way, but it's still right at hand if you need to use it for something. And I don't think it has wireless CarPlay which I kind of Rebecca Lindland 1:08:47 it does not because I played around with that yesterday, because I needed to charge my phone. And I wanted to try that wireless charger, which you write it kind of slots in and keeps it really nice and secure. By it doesn't have the wireless Apple CarPlay Android Auto. It does have Android Auto or Apple CarPlay Dan Roth 1:09:06 it's just not wired. And you know, you can easily pair with Bluetooth and get most of the phone functionality but you're gonna miss out on the other stuff that you get from those those. Yeah, Rebecca Lindland 1:09:14 and I will say is we've talked about this a lot since my experience with Mazda. I it's there is some native voice function, but for the most part, it does require using the Google assist when you have like Android Auto Apple CarPlay activated but it's actually worked out pretty well. The only thing is they've got these nature seen sounds because the mind doesn't have Sirius XM on it. So it's you know, am FM and then these nature scenes that are like nails on a chalkboard. I mean yesterday in the car saying make it stop Make it stop. Dan Roth 1:09:50 Please like background noise. Unknown Speaker 1:09:53 Oh, Rebecca Lindland 1:09:53 it's it's like like there's one that's fireplace and it's like the crinkling and cranking out fireplace in the Dan Roth 1:10:01 backseat with like Rebecca Lindland 1:10:06 every single one of these sounds of nature thing is like that. They have snow village and it's the sound is somebody walking in the snow. I mean, even now I'm like just cringing just Dan Roth 1:10:19 stop making this while you drive. Yes, Rebecca Lindland 1:10:23 this is one of the media options. And oh my gosh, it is just I get Like who? Who thought that was a good idea. You know? Dan Roth 1:10:34 Like I noticed a lot of Korean cars would play little songs for you when you shut them off and get in. That started a few years ago. And so I Rebecca Lindland 1:10:41 think my dish, my Samsung washer and dryer is Dan Roth 1:10:46 just like a cultural thing where you know that that's just something that delights those that market customers in that market that we're we're now getting as a benefit. Yeah, Rebecca Lindland 1:10:57 maybe? I don't know. But that that's good. I mean, I was gonna reach out to James Bell, who we all know, he's head of PR at ke and just be like, make it stop. Dan Roth 1:11:09 Please, like let us put in the sounds that we want to hear. Maybe I want to hear a machine shop. Rebecca Lindland 1:11:15 There you go see that? Excellent. But yeah, there's like eight of these sounds of nature thing and I tried all of them. And all that made my skin crawl. Dan Roth 1:11:24 That's excellent. That I don't have a ton of seat time in the K five yet. But it's really really well executed design wise. Obviously you can see that it's fantastic. Materials wise once you actually get in it and experience it. It's also really good. Everything feels good. Everything looks good. The switchgear the materials, it's and pricing it's really really competitive. Driving wise it's very pleasing. So it's it's a really well rounded package. It's I guess the only sort of criticism I can I can offer is the trunk. The opening on it sucks a little bit like most modern sedans, because they have that that roofline that. Rebecca Lindland 1:12:08 Yeah, this could have easily been a hatch a hidden hatch. Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid 1:12:12 And it probably should have been more like this dinner. Rebecca Lindland 1:12:15 Yes, exactly. Right. Dan Roth 1:12:16 I mean, I think most sedans should go that way anyway. Because otherwise, the way the styling is you lose the ability to get stuff in and out of the cargo area. Sam Abuelsamid 1:12:26 Yeah, you can do it without changing the shape of the vehicle. Right? it you know, there are it will add some cost and probably some weight because now you have this big hole in the back of your structure. So you've got to reinforce it in other ways, you know, and then you know, the hatch itself, the hatch mechanism is, is gonna add some weight so that may be the reason why they don't do it. But from a functional standpoint, it would make so much more sense to just make these things hatchbacks you know, in that it would be a seven, you know, Kia Stinger kind of style. Rebecca Lindland 1:13:03 And we should, we should make sure that our listeners know so this 2021 k five midsize sedan replaces the 2020 Kia Optima, so they're going to this different naming convention. And that actually does reflect more of what they have in Korea in their home market. So if you're looking for the Kia Optima, it's now called the K five. But it is really, really good. The other thing too, talking about the visit some of the visibility things I with that sloping roof line then because comes a pretty, pretty narrow rear view. I found it to be I mean, I'm used to because I've had so many hatchbacks over the years. But I did I had my sister sit in it yesterday for me and kind of move around and to see how the visibility is. I think that if you have three people sitting in that back for even a short drive, I do think that there might be a little bit of visibility issues. She sat in it, and it's fairly wide in the back. So it wasn't as bad as I feared. But I do think that some I could see some people on a test drive being a little bit thrown off by the very narrow rear window. Dan Roth 1:14:13 Yeah, you're gonna need your mirrors. If you've got a full load of passengers in there, or camera mirror system. Rebecca Lindland 1:14:18 The camera system would be fantastic in this. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, but overall, I mean, it's just, it's, as I said, Everybody has commented on it every time I've driven it, somebody has has stopped me, you know, wave me down at one point and again, the you know, postman, other people that I've encountered have have said you know what, what is that because also in the back it's got that cool the third taillight is like goes all the way across so at night, it's very dramatic looking as well and and the way that they've trimmed this out, it's just it's it's a really, really sharp vehicle and looks far more expensive than Dan Roth 1:14:54 it is and it's working for them. Apparently, Kia had a pretty good year, even this year. Sam Abuelsamid 1:15:01 I'm looking, I'm getting one next week. I'm getting an X next week. So I'm looking forward to trying this out. Okay? I'm not a fan of the Optima. Dan Roth 1:15:08 Yeah, I love that it's a mid level, trim that that we're all kind of getting you know, the it's always easy to charm people with the highest trim level. Right? Putting out something that's that's not the fanciest version gives us a really good chance to sort of see what what people are actually buying and how it holds up. Rebecca Lindland 1:15:30 Yes, for sure. Unknown Speaker 1:15:35 It's time to laugh out loud, or be surprised. Unknown Speaker 1:15:39 Eventually I hear the sound of water. Within the next hour. There's a firefighter at our door saying that we have to leave on a raft. I burst into tears. And I was like you will be the last thing that I'm thinking about Unknown Speaker 1:15:50 the new stories from the stage podcast. uncommon experiences, yet familiar emotions. I know what love feels like. And it's unmistakable. Arriving December 1, subscribe now Unknown Speaker 1:16:05 make some extra cash this holiday season driving with Lyft the rideshare app that treats you better, you can earn hundreds of dollars a week plus tips at Lyft drivers always come first. We've got your back with 24 seven support. And to make sure you start things off right. You can earn 20 $500 guaranteed for your first 200 rides. Apply at Lyft comm slash earn more. That's lyft.com slash earn more terms apply. Dan Roth 1:16:31 The events of this week led to a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. And we're not going to talk about the nation. Unknown Speaker 1:16:37 Well, I Dan Roth 1:16:40 think about the mainly I just I'm thinking of the GM logo that said fire the other day and I had some initial thoughts and I've kind of taken a step back because I knew I was gonna do this. And so initially it's changed and most people hate change. And so sure I looked at it first. I was like I hate it. And now I'm kind of like, at the end of the day, it just makes you shrug. But GM unveiled a new logo. And Sam, you watch the the presentation. So what what did they say? What's their excuse? Sam Abuelsamid 1:17:17 Excuses, excuses. So yeah, I was on the call with Deborah wall, who's Jim's new chief marketing officer, she joined a year and a half ago, I guess, like that. You know, they GM is not a company that has changed its logo very frequently. You know, it the basic logo, it's had, you know, the blue square with the uppercase g m and the bar has been around since the early 1960s. You know, it's been tweaked a couple of times going from just a flat blue to, you know, a gradient that makes it look metallic. But it's basically been, you know, largely unchanged for the last 60 years. And this is the most dramatic change they've ever done. They basically made it look like an iPhone app icon. You know, rounded square, you know, with lowercase, lowercase G and M. You know, that was something that somebody pointed out on Twitter the other day, after it came up after it became public was, yeah, it looks like an elephant standing on a riverbank getting a drink. Dan Roth 1:18:27 Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Sam Abuelsamid 1:18:30 Just Just like the arrow in the FedEx logo. Dan Roth 1:18:32 Yeah, the arrow supposed to be there. I don't think the elephant Sam Abuelsamid 1:18:35 the the arrow makes I don't think I don't think the designers at GM actually intended for this thing to look like an elephant. But you know what, there is one other little detail in there that that she did point out that that actually does make sense. And you know, that was intentional. And that's the negative space. So the previous up until now the bar has always been under both the G and the M. Now it's just under the M. So like the lowercase g The, the bottom part of it kind of hangs down adjacent to the bar. And then the negative space between the M and the bar. When you look at it now it looks like a plug, which is supposed to symbolize Jim's transition to being an electric vehicle company. So it's there. I don't know how many people are Rebecca Lindland 1:19:23 gonna notice it paid a lot of money for that. Dan Roth 1:19:25 Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid 1:19:26 Well, it was designed internally by by their designers by their team. Okay. Yeah, Dan Roth 1:19:30 I will say like, and I said this on Twitter to your deal, like you said it that logo that the current logo or the the existing logo goes back 60 years. This brand stuff is hard. And it's you know, once you change, a brand image that's been around for 60 years, you're never going to please everybody and you have to pull this Sam Abuelsamid 1:19:59 case, maybe not Anybody, right? Dan Roth 1:20:00 And you have to eat. And when you talk about it, you're talking in terms of design philosophy. And so it's it moves from being really concrete to almost a higher minded creative discussion, where you have to explain a lot of ideas and ideals and imagination and those elements that are in there. They're not necessarily obvious like I, because there's so much negative space in here, I would not have really gotten it's not a strong call to it being like a plug there in the negative space of the M. But I can I can see it, but it's not not as strong as I would want. And I'm sure this went through a lot of certainly not as strong Sam Abuelsamid 1:20:43 as the elephant. Yeah. Rebecca Lindland 1:20:46 Oh, a reminded me my brother does a lot of work with E three, this big trade show. And it kind of reminded me of some of, of an E three, logo logos and some of the work that exists in that space. Dan Roth 1:20:59 Yeah. And it's, you know, I like what they're trying to do with tie the brand to a more modern image. And it does look like an icon. I think it's probably intentional with the radius corners and going to the lowercase text, which everybody seems to be doing. Because that's the way you say your hip and cool. And high tech is like, Oh, we just throw out capitals. Yeah. Rebecca Lindland 1:21:21 So while we're on the subject of logos, here's logo, that's new logo, Unknown Speaker 1:21:27 this Dan Roth 1:21:28 logo happened. Sam Abuelsamid 1:21:30 A logo. Rebecca Lindland 1:21:31 You know what? I? I don't like it, because taken out of context, I have no idea what it is. Dan Roth 1:21:37 It looks like Cayenne. I'm in? Rebecca Lindland 1:21:39 I don't know what it is. I mean, when if I just look at it. I don't I would never look at key as new logo and say that is kiya? Sam Abuelsamid 1:21:48 Yeah, well, I think, you know, the bigger, you know, something, something else to consider here is, you know, the key logo actually appears on all key vehicles. Yes, the GM logo does never never appears on a GM vehicle. And it's there's only been two times in the company's history when it has appeared. The first time the GM logo actually ever appeared on a GM vehicle was in 1996, when they launched the v1. And that because that one was did not that car did not belong to any of the existing brands. It was the GM Evie one not a Chevrolet or Buick or Pontiac, it was a GM Evie one. That was the first time they ever used the GM logo on a vehicle from General Motors. Then between 2005 and 2010, they, they had the idea to put the little GM badge on the fender of all the cars, and they dropped that in 2010. And, and this new logo will not be appearing on any GM vehicles. So Rebecca Lindland 1:22:51 right now, it Unknown Speaker 1:22:51 won't be Sam Abuelsamid 1:22:52 no Deborah wall was asked, you know, is this going to be on vehicles? And she said, No, it's not going to be they're not going to use it on vehicles. It's only for, you know, the corporate identity for the signage and letterhead, you know, in the factories and things like that. But it's not going to be it's not going to be used on vehicles, there's no, there's no plan to use it on vehicles. So, you know, the truth is, it really doesn't actually matter if people like it or not, because, you know, when people go by shop for cars, they don't, they don't go shopping for a GM vehicle, they go shopping for a Chevrolet, or GMC, or Buick or a Cadillac. Rebecca Lindland 1:23:29 It's funny, I was thinking about that, because you're right. And a lot of people don't even know that GM, what brands fall under the GM, right umbrella. So So, you know, they don't know that. And so you're right, this isn't, and it is a big difference between kiya and GM. This is GM is more of a wall street nomenclature than a consumer. Sam Abuelsamid 1:23:53 And and the reality is, you know, this, this change in the logo may actually be designed to appeal more to, you know, Wall Street than to, you know, consumers, Rebecca Lindland 1:24:04 it's more of a corporate image. Yes. than a consumer retail. Sam Abuelsamid 1:24:09 Well, but speaking of corporate image, so, you know, the the part that actually is important about what they announced on Friday, I think is more important than the logo is this new ad campaign, this marketing campaign that they're launching, which is called everybody in Dan Roth 1:24:25 EV, which I like that quite a bit. I think it's clever. Sam Abuelsamid 1:24:28 Yeah. And so, you know, the, the everybody in campaign is going to be about promoting GM transition to electrification. And the whole premise around it is that EDS aren't just for, you know, environmentalists now, you know, or, you know, for early adopters. We're gonna have EBS for everybody and you know, hence the everybody in, you know, tagline and, you know, unfortunately, the first half You know, has too much emphasis on Malcom Gladwell. But, you know, they're gonna This is going to be an ongoing campaign over the next, at least the next couple of years as they start to launch all these new TVs starting later this year with the Hummer, EV and various others and the Cadillac lirik, early next year. And I think, on Tuesday, we're recording this on Sunday morning on Tuesday at virtual CES. Mary Barra, the CEO is going to be doing a keynote, and she's expected to make some additional announcements about other products that are coming. Other AV products are coming from GM, including probably a Chevy electric pickup truck, which may even launch this year, I wouldn't be surprised if it does launch this year alongside the Hummer. Dan Roth 1:25:46 So I think as with anything, anything like this, you you get a reaction, and that's the best you can hope for is that love it or hate it. People are looking at it and talking about GM. They're not talking about Tesla. They're not talking about Ford, they're talking about GM, and how much they don't like the logo, but then that's the opportunity for you to ask, what were they thinking? And then well, here's what they were thinking. And that's a good point. So yeah, people can hate it, that's fine. You know. And it's, it's tough. Because you're not just designing a logo, you're designing a logo system. And so it's got to work on letterhead, it's got to work with lockup, it's got to work on signs, it's got to work on the website, there's a lot of different considerations for it. And, and so it's not, it's not the task that, you know, the constant criticism, when logos or branding are redone is that well, I could have done that with like, you know, 20 bucks in an intern? Yes, you you could have made a single logo with 20 bucks in an intern, that's fine. But you would have struggled just as much with 200 stakeholders, and a staff of 30 like it. And and a checklist that you've got to to meet all of these divergent directives. Remember, Jim's a big company and branding is like a big deal to them. Rebecca Lindland 1:27:10 globally. Yeah. a global company as well. Sam Abuelsamid 1:27:13 That's a good point. And, you know, the has, you know, have you ever decided not to buy a particular vehicle because you didn't like the logo? remotely factored into a purchase decision for vehicle? Rebecca Lindland 1:27:29 No, but the but the brand, the company? You know, I mean, look, Tesla has primarily made its fortunes on this brand image. So it does it's part it's part of the puzzle. It's all part of the of the puzzle, you know, I mean, I would argue that in fashion people have people buy the Louis Vuitton Oh, you know, like fashion is very different. But as we move into a V's it is a, you know, and and almost cars almost get agnostic, because they're all kind of the same, then it will be more important to establish brand and what that looks like. Sam Abuelsamid 1:28:02 Yeah, but when people buy, you know, fashion items, purchase purses and other items exclusively because of the logo. That's a very different purchase decision, right? Dan Roth 1:28:15 There's a lot psychologically, we can pull on that thread. We should just let's Rebecca Lindland 1:28:19 not do that today. Dan Roth 1:28:22 Cars are definitely fashion. But Sam Abuelsamid 1:28:25 but very different. Yeah, Dan Roth 1:28:26 not not the logo per se. The other thing that we saw launched we can stay in the states for now was the Jeep Grand Cherokee. Oh, so there's a new generation of the green check, which is the first since Well, I guess the current Grand Cherokee stretches all the way back our architecture wise to the 2005 Wk and then the 2011 Wk two is basically what we've still got. So it's roughly a 10 year old car. Right now on 15 year old architecture that was inherited from Mercedes, there's a lot of M class in the W Ks. So there's now a new Jeep Grand Cherokee. It's got a third row now, which is something that I think consumers have been looking for. And they're going to launch with the, the, you have the option, you'll have the option for three rows and two rows that they're launching with three row first. The two row will follow on later in the year. The styling seems to pick up a bit from the Grand wagoneer. But they're definitely not the same platform. I was looking at it and reading the press release and as a grand cherokee owner, I'm completely biased, but I really like it. What did you guys think? Rebecca Lindland 1:29:47 I think it looks great. My My only question is, I I thought one of the differentiators for the upcoming Grand wagoneer is that it had three rows And maybe it's just that maybe that's the Sam Abuelsamid 1:30:01 Grand wagoneer significantly larger than this? Well, Rebecca Lindland 1:30:03 that's Yeah, it says we can say was, you know, it's there. They're probably speaking to different people. And maybe the difference between some of the icons that we talked about earlier and such, but so I think this is a really, really smart move. There's a lot of people, you know, we talked earlier about utility, and maybe you only use this once or twice, but it's really nice to know that it's there. I and, and, you know, a certainly a longer seven inches longer is always helpful. So I think this is a really, really smart move, long overdue. There's so much competition in this space. And this is a good example of where Jeep Grand Cherokee has got to stay current, as more and more vehicles move into a place where they you dominate it for so long. Dan Roth 1:30:47 Yeah, well, it's not like a three row on the Wk. Two architecture hasn't existed, you know, they've had the Sam Abuelsamid 1:30:53 demand commander for all Oh, yeah, I'm Dan Roth 1:30:55 the commander. So basically, the the commander was a three row Grand Cherokee back in the early 2000s, early mid 2000s. And they didn't look the same. And the Durango is exactly a three row Grand Cherokee now, but there's a job right. I think there's there's a purchase consideration decision for the brand, that people who would buy a Jeep might not consider a Dodge, even though it's the same thing. Unknown Speaker 1:31:25 Yeah, it doesn't matter. Dan Roth 1:31:26 Yeah. So I think it's smart that they're making a three row in this size. It's kind of like how GM makes the what is it the Traverse, you can get a three row traverse? Sam Abuelsamid 1:31:38 Yeah, all the all three of the traverse the Buick Enclave and the GMC Acadia are all available three rows. Dan Roth 1:31:45 Right. And but they also make the larger full size SUVs that have three rows. So I think it's sort of that kind of parody where they're, they're looking to fill that hole that would Rebecca Lindland 1:31:56 I mean, the difference gems one is car based, and one is truck based. Yeah, that's true difference. Right? You know that? Sam Abuelsamid 1:32:03 Yeah. Well, and that's true here. Well, you hear the Grand Cherokee is a unibody car base, but it is a huge body structure. Whereas the Grand wagoneer and Grand wagoneer are derived from the ram platform. So it's a body on frame like like the the Yukon and Tahoe and, and the expedition. Dan Roth 1:32:25 And the new Grand Cherokee is new architecture. What exactly platform is it? Sam Abuelsamid 1:32:32 It's it's new, it's all new. They, they haven't given a whole lot of technical detail on it yet. But independent suspension all around multilink, suspension, front and rear. Its launching just with the pentastar and the 5.7 liter Hemi. But there will be a plug in hybrid available later in the year around the time that they also launched the two row. The the other big thing that they were talking about what this thing is the new audio system that everybody's putting in premium branded premium audio systems and vehicles now to help distinguish them. And GM or Jeep rather has partnered up with Macintosh. Which, you know, they've only had a couple of dips into the car audio market in the past, never in any significant volume. They did an audio system for the the 2004 Centennial edition for GT. They did on some Subaru a Subaru Outback. Rebecca Lindland 1:33:39 We're in the Grand wagoneer. Sam Abuelsamid 1:33:41 And yes, it first showed up in the Grand wagoneer concept that we saw last fall. And now it's it's going to it's going into production, starting with the Grand Cherokee. And this Grand Cherokee, the Grand Cherokee l starts production. I think later this quarter, it'll be available and for sale in the second quarter of this year. So I thought it was interesting that they're still calling this a 2021 model, even though it's not launching until the spring of this year. But with the Macintosh audio system, one of the the cool little details that they had on the concept was on the center touchscreen. When you go to the the audio screen, it shows a virtual version of the classic Macintosh meters, you know, the blue backlit meters that you have on all the Macintosh home audio devices that shows up on the screen. And that's going to be in the Grand Cherokee and presumably in the wagoneer as well. And then on the speaker grilles on the doors. The Macintosh logo is also backlit and that same shade of blue, though, just a little detail touches. Dan Roth 1:34:47 Yeah, that's something that Jeep is really good at with the Grand Cherokee especially is those those touches and they cover that large spread of pricing too. So it's gonna be like Laredo limited what oh, overland and summit or something like that trim level wise so you'll be able to get one for a reasonable price and then you can get a very expensive fully loaded one. Yeah. It's it's a great product and it's it's really well respected because it's, it drives really well. And it's, it's earned its premium reputation by really pleasing customers. So hopefully this new one still pleases customers, I feel like the one bit of controversy might be that the way they've evolved the styling to pull in some of that wagoneer that not everybody loves. But it's it's a little bit more subdued here. You know, the proportions are a little different. So, yeah, the Rebecca Lindland 1:35:41 roof lines a lot more square to make room for that third row, the people that are sitting in that third row. Sam Abuelsamid 1:35:46 Yeah. So it's not it's still not as tall as the, the wagoneer. Yeah. Right. You know, whereas this one is, you know, it's definitely a little sleeker looking. And then, you know, the facia, you know, the grill on the front is, you know, rather than the slope back look that the Grand Cherokee has always had, since it debuted 30 years ago, you know, is, again, you know, that same upright look that's on the wagon here. Rebecca Lindland 1:36:14 Yeah. It'll be interesting, Sam, just looking at the pictures, because it looks like the gear shifter has that same feel as the Genesis vehicles do. And so that will be interesting to see how that, Senator, you had issues with that, what that feels like when it comes out. And thoughts are? Sam Abuelsamid 1:36:37 Well, on the Genesis, it was more on the the infotainment controller because of the way it's flush, you know, and the way you interact with it, you know, you've got this flush control rotary dial that is flushing that in the console, right. So you have to press down on it to get that, get that grip to turn it. Whereas with the shift lever that, you know, the rotary shifter that's on here, you know, I saw it on the the wagoneer. Last fall, you know, you're gripping, you're gripping it differently, you know, because it's sticking up from the console. And so I don't think it's going to be as much of a problem there. Although we'll, we'll see. Dan Roth 1:37:18 Yeah. All right. ergonomically, it looks like they've done a lot of homework. Yeah, I want to drive it. I was like, I really want to try this out. Because it's, you know, the, the ergonomics in the current Grand Cherokee are pretty good. And this is pretty similar in a lot of ways. The controls look like they're in most of the same places, and they're easy to use, or the current one is easy to use. So hopefully, they've kept that ease of use. And well, Rebecca Lindland 1:37:46 and it looks I mean, I think it's really handsome. And it's, it looks familiar, but still an iteration. Yeah. Dan Roth 1:37:53 Yeah. So good. Good job. For now. Yes. Sam Abuelsamid 1:37:56 And it also comes with the fam cam, that's also Bonnie van. So monitor your kids in the back two rows. Rebecca Lindland 1:38:05 Oh, that's brilliant. Dan Roth 1:38:06 And it doesn't have the intercom system to where you can yell at them. It does, Sam Abuelsamid 1:38:09 yes. Dan Roth 1:38:12 Getting one last thing on our list here is that the large Mercedes hypur screen, which premiered and then took down the Mercedes website Sam Abuelsamid 1:38:25 actually tried to watch the video after they launched. It kept crashing. Dan Roth 1:38:31 So what's the scoop with it, it's an enormous screen that goes across the whole, like from sort of. Sam Abuelsamid 1:38:37 So this is this is the the display system that's going to be in the new EQ s, which is their new electric luxury sedan that's coming out later this year. So it's basically an electric version of the the S Class. They call it the hyper screen. It's, it's actually a single continuous surface that spans the entire dashboard, but it's not one screen. There's actually three separate screens. So some of the Mercedes in recent years, have had this big unit, you know, that sits on top of the dash, you know, with the mbu x infotainment, but it was actually two separate screens under the glass. So it when it's off, it looks like it well, it is a single piece of glass, but there's underneath the glass are our individual screens. In this case, there's three large screens that that span, so there's one in front of the driver for the instrument display. Combined, they all add up to something like 56 inches across. But they're, you know, there's there's individual screens here. I can't remember the size of the central screen is the big one. Yeah. Yeah, it's huge. And then the third screen is over on the passenger side. And supposedly, you know, from the description, it sounds like it won't really be visible. To the driver, so the passenger can watch videos and things like that on there. And we've seen this on some other vehicles recently, tech Rebecca Lindland 1:40:06 on the Porsche tech on has a really long Sam Abuelsamid 1:40:09 Yeah, the icons on there the wagoneer concept screen for the for the passenger? Dan Roth 1:40:16 What's wrong windows? What's wrong with looking at the windows Sam Abuelsamid 1:40:19 look? Well, I mean, you know, that's certainly a legit complaint, you know, when it comes to the, you know, if they're watching videos on there, the ability for you know, the passenger to be able to, you know, interact with things like the entertainment, you know, music or the navigation and or navigation information, things like that on their screen, I think is actually useful. One of the, you know, that the central screen, one of the things that they talk about in this thing, and the design of this is this, the zero layer concept. And one of the things we've complained about a lot I know I've complained about a lot with touchscreens, you know, is drilling down through layers of menus. And, you know, when when you actually have to look at the screen, you know, that does take your attention away from the road. So with with this zero layer concept, you know, by going to this larger screen, they're able to surface more of the stuff that you use, most frequently, at that top layer. So you're not drilling down through through menus. And the same, the same principle is there on the Ford Mustang Maki, they're trying to do the same idea by having all the stuff that you use, available all the time. So it's it's not, you're not drilling down through menus. And I think that if you're going to rely on touchscreens, which it seems like, despite my protestations the industry is going to do I don't think, you know, this is doing something like this, I think is a better approach. Yeah. So, you know, what you see on some of the, some of the images, you know, you see the navigation taking up, you know, like, 80% of this display area. And then, you know, the bottom part, you've got things like the climate control, the, and then, you know, boxes that overlay on top of the map, you know, for things like your media controls, your phone, messages, that sort of thing. So everything is right there. So you don't have to drill down, which I think is the best of making the best of the situation, if you're going to go touch online. Yeah. Dan Roth 1:42:39 And it was, so this is something that's going to be it's the virtual CES two, right, like this is we're gonna know more about this soon. Sam Abuelsamid 1:42:46 Um, I don't think so I can't remember if Mercedes is doing anything at virtual CES this week. But we will be seeing more of this, you know, in the coming months, as they get closer to the launch of the EQ s. You know, prior prior to the launch of the s class last fall, you know, they were putting out stuff, you know, every couple of weeks, they were putting out new information about it. And so I'm sure we'll be seeing more about this and other elements of the EQ s over the next several months. Dan Roth 1:43:18 We're gonna get to a super long episode, because we did an interview with Ryan matich, from Ford, about the new 7.3 liter V eight engine in the super duty trucks. Our patrons already have the interview, they got it early. So if you want stuff like that early, it patreon.com, slash wheel bearings, media, and you too, can get get things early, for we put them in the show. But it was a really interesting discussion that three of us had with Ryan about why they decided to go the way they went with that engine that I've been talking about for the last three weeks. So we figured that it might be interesting to hear some of the reasoning behind going with a new large displacement, push rod v eight. So I'll put that in here. And then we can come back and we can answer a couple of questions and hit the road. Ryan, thanks for joining us on wheel bearings. Let's start with the easy stuff. Can you introduce yourself to our audience? Who you are what you do? Unknown Speaker 1:44:23 Absolutely. So my name is Brian metallic. I work at Ford Motor Company and global engine engineering, in particular with the 7.3 liter engine systems team. So I work as part of a team that oversees the development release and then integration of the engine within the vehicles that ford motor company sells. Dan Roth 1:44:44 All right, any other Ford powertrain product projects, obviously, you know, secret stuff we can't talk about, but you know, before the 7.3 you were you're on other powertrain projects as well at Ford. Unknown Speaker 1:44:57 I was my my tenure reform is relatively short, about five and a half years or so. When I came in, I worked on some of the modular programs, as they were kind of going out the door. So 5.4 liter 6.8 liter three v that you see in kind of the heavy truck market. And then I did a small stint with the five liter coyote also. Dan Roth 1:45:17 That's a good one. Oh, absolutely. I like that one. Unknown Speaker 1:45:22 It was a lot more fun than six, eight. Sam Abuelsamid 1:45:24 Our second our second favorite Ford V eight after the Unknown Speaker 1:45:28 Voodoo. Yeah. Dan Roth 1:45:30 Yeah, it's hard to beat the Voodoo. So we've asked you to come on the show, because new engines always generate some enthusiast interest and excitement and you big vas especially, I get people paying attention. And so the new 7.3 that we're talking about. Its codename is Godzilla, of course. And so that's the top engine in the super duty trucks. replaces that 6.8 modular v 10. And I just had a chance to spend a couple of weeks actually with the that engine and an F 350. And there's there's quite a contrast to the two architectures from the modular to the new Godzilla. Can you sort of talk about the differences between the engines? What influenced the choices made? Unknown Speaker 1:46:20 Yeah, absolutely. So as the modular is getting little long in the tooth, right, we were looking to, to really realign what Ford was offering. So that it could be better suited to what the customers needed. In particular, with this heavy duty truck market, medium duty trucks. So your F 657 50s. Right, our our strip chassis products that we offer in superduty truck, right, a lot have changed since we introduced the modular engine into those vehicles. And so we're taking a good look at what the customer wanted, what they needed from power, durability, maintenance cost wise. And when we started looking at all that it really became evident that the customers didn't need an overhead cam design, right? It needed something that had maybe a little less weight to it, right. So push rods or lower weight or fewer pieces, a little simpler. So with that, we say go back to push rod, right. And then the size kind of came about displacement as you started looking about, really where the sweet spot was for running, running the power we wanted and the torque we wanted and how we wanted to run that engine. It just kind of worked out to be 7.3 liters then so. All right, Rebecca Lindland 1:47:36 Brian, hi. It's Rebecca Lynn land. I'm sorry. Wait, how are you? Unknown Speaker 1:47:40 Oh, good. Good. Rebecca Lindland 1:47:41 So when you say that it just sort of became 7.3? Like, how does that happen? And I'm sorry, that's a maybe a really remedial question. Unknown Speaker 1:47:51 No, no. So as you look at it, like heavy duty truck market, the way you want to run as stoichiometric, right, so you want to run the perfect air fuel ratio, just enough fuel, just enough air. So when you start looking at that, that your displacement controls how much air you can get in the engine, and then to run at the correct air fuel ratio that controls how much fuel which will then give you your power. So we knew what kind of power targets we wanted. We knew what the customers were expecting for towing capability and torque and where we wanted to see that. So as you come up with that, and start working out how much power and torque you need, that gives you your fuel, and then we were able to back calculate with the air and the volume and then we became 7.3 liter. Okay, Rebecca Lindland 1:48:36 thank you, that actually helps a lot Sam Abuelsamid 1:48:40 to basically reverse engineer back from what it is the customer needs. Yeah, to get the product that achieves that. Dan Roth 1:48:49 Correct. And so stoichiometric that's the perfect 14.1 14.0 to one air fuel ratio, right in theory that correct? Yeah. theories, the beautiful thing, but that's actually I was surprised looking at the specs, you know, this is like a the bores are more than four inches in diameter, which is a pretty big bore. And so that gives you a large, large area and it was at a challenge to make it burn clean. Because of the size of the board. I know that different combustion chamber shapes sort of affect those those particulate emissions and now cleaner burns. How complete Yeah, Unknown Speaker 1:49:26 we have a lot of in house ca analytical tools that we use to help develop what we want to see for charge motion, right? air and fuel movement as it comes into the cylinder as you fill it, which then directly correlates to how, how well you get a clean burn, right? Burn rates, flame propagation, right? That was a it was a big concern for us. And there was a fair amount of time spent developing the engine, working on getting you know, the right amount of charge motion and the way we've positioned the sparkplug right now. You'll notice it's in between our exhaust runners and the outside where we put it that that was all done for a very precise reason to try to give us that best burn in the, in the displacement in the sizes that we had. Okay, Sam Abuelsamid 1:50:14 so Ryan, this, this engine not only replaces the six, eight, but it also replaces the six to at least in the super duties. And you know, the six two was also remember now was that that was an overhead cam engine, wasn't it? Unknown Speaker 1:50:29 It wasn't overhead cam engine X ray. Sam Abuelsamid 1:50:31 So is there anything at all? In terms of architecture? Obviously, not the composition, but anything else about the architecture that that was shared with the six to or derived from the six to Unknown Speaker 1:50:43 so six to actually is still offered in superduty? Is our entry level gas engine? Yes, sir. So the seven three was really meant to fill a gap that was between your six two, which is your entry level six, like super duty truck, gas truck user fee a lot of fleets and stuff, people who need the big bed, a decent amount towing capacity and everything. You know, but don't need a ton of towing capacity. And seven three really fits in really well between the six two, it's a nice step up without paying the premium to get the diesel, because a diesel, you know, for the 2020s 1000 foot pounds of torque is a monstrous amount of towing capacity. Like it is a great vehicle. But it is a ton of truck, right? Not everyone needs that. And so seven, three really fits perfectly in between there. When it comes to sharing architecture, there was we tried to design everything to be very, very common use parts where we can write, it's the most efficient way to design something, the most efficient way to build something from our perspective, right? There are only a handful of parts, though that were really common. Because being a, you know, Cam and block when you're seven, three compared to the overhead cam being a different valve architecture on the top end, right. So they're both two vowels, right, but the seven threes got those big rocker arms in it six, two dozen as a Rocker Shaft, it's a very different, where they put the hydraulic lash and everything the even the shapes of the covers on the engine are all very different. So while we did want to be very similar, at the end of the day, there aren't very many parts that were shared between the two engines. Maybe the alternator. Unknown Speaker 1:52:25 The alternator alternators are common. The crank position sensor is common. I think, the main caps other than that you're kind of running low. Rebecca Lindland 1:52:38 So Ryan, from that perspective, then did you have any issues fitting this engine into the vehicle? Unknown Speaker 1:52:44 Oh, absolutely not actually, that's what's that's gorgeous about the pushrod architecture is that this engine is actually smaller than the outgoing six, eight, it's smaller than that. And if you think about what this vehicle is used in, every one of these vehicle applications aside from the V and 127 Econoline gets a diesel, a 6.7 liter power stroke in it right. And the 6.7 liter power stroke is a very large power train right that these things have a fair amount of space. So it was almost startling The first time I got on the vehicles and you pop the hood, you can look into it, you could actually see some air and daylight. That's been a long time that looked in the vehicle and could see the ground when you're looking at the engine, you know, it obviously, there's always packaged constraints like hood lines, and you know, everything like we do have consider all that stuff. But compared to the other power trains are offered in these applications, seven three is a pretty compact package, actually. Sam Abuelsamid 1:53:44 So anybody that's familiar with the small block v eights from your, your rivals across town, you know, is one of the big advantages of that canon block design is that it can be such a small package envelope, you know, for an engine that produces so much power, you know, which is why they've been so popular is as retrofits in so many applications over the decades. So, how, how much smaller than a six two? Would you say this? The seven three is from a package volume perspective. Unknown Speaker 1:54:19 Um, Unknown Speaker 1:54:22 you know, at one point, I did have the numbers for like overall weight and height and width right the compared I don't have those off the top of my head right now. I can get that information to you. Right. I just have to dig it out of my email somewhere. Well, let Sam Abuelsamid 1:54:38 me put it this way, isn't it? Is it conceivable you know, could you relatively easily slot this engine into the space currently occupied by a coyote v eight. I know where you're going with this. Unknown Speaker 1:54:52 You know, Unknown Speaker 1:54:55 I've not compared to the five liter either. I've seen them both on engine stand. I will see the seventh Pre does look pretty petite compared to a coyote right with a dual overhead cams and everything as to how it would fit into one of those packages. I don't really know too much on it. I've I've seen the YouTube videos of one fit into a box body. Right? Everything is possible. Dan Roth 1:55:20 So I guess coming back to the truck applications, you know, the other well respected Ford powertrain recently has been the EcoBoost v sixes, you know, the nano and then the 3.5. So, I'm curious why there was, well, I guess I'm sure there probably was consideration about maybe doing a heavier duty version of the EcoBoost v six to fill this need versus a new va? What was that thought given? And why was the decision made? to go with a new VA instead? Unknown Speaker 1:55:57 Yeah. The EcoBoost is, it's a great motor, and it's done very well. And the the F series, the lighter f 150. trucks and the rest of our lineup, right? When you start looking at heavy duty trucks, though, that's not really not really filling the need there. Right. So you hear a lot of talk about, you know, I'm in clutch engagement torque, right? So when you're coming off the line, you can stop and everything, right? So a large, a large VA fills that need very well, right? Do you have a big toe or a big trailer attached to your truck and your stop to stop letting go take off, you're able to, you know, get your torque at a very good onset, it's um, it's a very easy package, very precise package, right, you know, and then doesn't require a lot of additional vehicle cooling are a lot of additional controls on the vehicle, that are all things that you'd have to worry about on, you know, you think about some of these commercial vehicles, they'll run 200 300,000 miles in a lifetime very easily. Right. And so like, this, this package gave us the, the torque and power where we wanted it when we needed it for the package. And in the simplest solution, right, which is really the best solution for the customer. Dan Roth 1:57:13 Yeah, it's I love the fact that there's new pushrod VA in town that makes me makes me pleased, you know, the Triton v 10. It was known for a few things, one of them being the, the 450 or more foot pounds of torque. And the other was the the thirst that was hard to slake, you know, to kind of return to that big hard working engine fuel economy, which is not great. How do you try to get the most efficiency out of big engines without hurting their potential for work. Unknown Speaker 1:57:50 So it's always hard because the more power you make, right, the more fuel you're going to take or whatever, but but the key is to run really, really efficient in this engine, we introduced a couple technologies that really helped with that, right, so that the Triton motor that you're talking about, that did not have variable valve timing on it. They also didn't have a variable displacement oil pump, which are both two technologies that we've used on other applications that have been introduced in 2020 on the 7.3 liter. So the standard G rotor oil pump, every time the engine spins, you're spinning so much oil volume, right. And as you spin the engine faster and harder, you're still spinning the exact same oil but as you get up to speed you don't necessarily need all that oil pressure. And so what we've done with the Godzilla we have a variable displacement oil pump, so we're providing all of the lubrication needs the low speed by having this massive amount of oil that you can pump every time you crank the engine turns around once but as you go up in speed and you're cranking it more often, you don't need all of that displacement on the oil pump and so we start trimming that back of it and that really gives us an increased amount of fuel economy because it's less parasitic loss on the engine right? And then the VCT being able to time the valvetrain to give you some optimal breathing, right that really increases what we can do increase the efficiency we can get from the engine which therefore results in you know not only better power numbers but better fuel economy numbers to go with it. Dan Roth 1:59:20 Sam Rebecca what's what's on your list? Rebecca Lindland 1:59:24 So I'm wondering how the customer response has been in this maybe out of your life line of sight Ryan but you know, you're Are you do you feel like it's the feel of it is very different from a customer experience standpoint. If so, how is it different what's good about what may be some obstacle they have to get used to I you know, just kind of from the overall feel I was just driving a very different vehicle but I found the exhaust note to be really disappointing On this particular vehicle. You think Like that, like, it's just, you know, it's just a different engine. I felt like I was driving a motorboat. And I know it's not supposed to sound like that. So I'm just sort of wondering, you know, from a customer experience when you were driving it, both customer and engineering experience, I guess. Unknown Speaker 2:00:14 Yeah. So I've been able to drive, you know, a whole array of our superduty products and in the current role, I have to say that the seven three, even though I'm a little biased, cuz I worked on is by far my favorite one to drive right? I think it's a blast to drive. It's a hoot. Right? It reminds me when I tell Rebecca Lindland 2:00:31 you other engines that Unknown Speaker 2:00:34 reminds me of like, when I learned to drive, my dad had an F 150. Right. And it was, it takes you back to that right? You know, and it was a lot of fun. I have to say that having driven some six, two trucks and everything, then you drive those, it's truck, it gets you around, it drives very well. But it didn't really put a smile on your face, right? And the seven, three, when you drive that thing like it, it puts a smile on your face. Right? It's got a nice note starstuff Well, it got some get up and go when you put your foot into it. Right, you know, yeah, you know, it's just a lot of fun to drive in general. But the diesel is just kind of crazy to drive. Like I said before, that's, that's a hell of a truck. That's a lot, a lot of a truck, you know, and I find the seven, three, just to be like the perfect mix, it's a lot of fun. It's a comfortable to drive around the road, right doesn't bounce out too much. It can get up and pass anything you need to do. As from a customer's perspective. I mean, I, I believe they're selling well, but I don't. I'm an engineering, I don't get to see any of the sales or marketing numbers really. So Rebecca Lindland 2:01:37 yeah, but you still have that experience that he said like that, because what we're finding in a number of vehicles is, it's hard to keep that emotional connection. While you're, you know, while you're you're tuning in for things like improved fuel economy and putting in things like BBT. And, and, and, you know, some of these different applications even stopped start, you know, my, I was talking to my brother, who always reminds me, he's not only much older than me, but you know, when he was a kid, kind of, he's in that stage of life. And so, you know, I had a vehicle recently that had stopped start, he's here visiting from California. And I, you know, I told him, I said, you know, this has stopped start, and you didn't even realize it. And that's the kind of improvements that I've tried to tell him, you know, over time has happened. And, you know, convincing, especially a traditional pickup truck buyer, that some of this technology is actually going to improve their experience can be challenging sometimes. Unknown Speaker 2:02:33 Yeah. And, um, I mean, we don't have stop start on the seven, three. Okay? It is it's fully conventional with, but just have the 10 speed transmission in the superduty applications. I've found that to be a very nice package when I'm driving them around, right? Like they seem to be very responsive. They handle Well, they shift Well, I seem to be pretty smooth and everything. For the truck drivers out there who previously had a tritone or six, two, I think they would find it much easier to drive a Godzilla truck, right, I think it's a little more lively, a little more responsive off the throttle, right? The 2020 superduty is got a lot of bells and whistles on the inside, or just just phenomenal overall creature comforts right? To come a long way since the mid 90s. When I wanted to drive on a truck, I can Dan Roth 2:03:22 I can confirm all of these these impressions. If you like you say the the modular v eights, they're they're good engines, they seem to make their power a little higher up in the RPM range to really get peak power out of them. So the low end response from the seven three is is really pleasing. I also found myself thinking, you know, this does not feel like a truck engine. It's very responsive. It you need to look at the details. The stuff that works for durability also works for high performance for bolt main caps with cross bolted, you know, with cross balls as well, there's a lot of rigidity and stability to the engine. So it kind of it gets the hot rodder and me very excited for performance potential. Rebecca Lindland 2:04:09 So Ryan, why why doesn't it have stop start? Unknown Speaker 2:04:13 That's just not a technology that the F series team really asked us to consider for the for the 2020 package. Is it? Is it also partly because when you get up to a certain size, fuel economy ratings aren't necessary. I mean, that could be I we're as engine we're given a set of kind of goals and parameters that they want us to work with. That was not one of the ones that the program wanted us to consider. So that wasn't obviously it's a lot of complexity and cost to be added in. So it wasn't anything that we were trying to look to add in on our own. So interesting. Okay. Sam Abuelsamid 2:04:51 Yeah, across the across Ford's light duty lineup. The company has committed to putting electrification across pretty much every vehicle and Many of them now have varying degrees of electrification from hybrid to plug in hybrid and battery electric coming in, do you see a place for some electrification being added on the super duties? And with the, with the seven, three, maybe even a 48 volt mild hybrid? I mean, Ford does have 48 volt systems on some models in Europe, like on the on the some of the smaller cars in Europe, do you see a place for 48 volt as an add on to to this engine? Unknown Speaker 2:05:35 Well, I mean, hybrid always has its place as the, you know, as the world striving to better and better fuel economy better and better efficiency and everything. And I think that's something that Ford's probably going to consider heavily as we go forward on what kind of hybridisation electrification additional power features we can provide our customers in this segment also. And so I could see them looking into that, but I, I can't really comment on anything that we're going to be doing in the future. A little above my paygrade. Dan Roth 2:06:09 So what's your What's your favorite part of powertrain development? What do you find the most satisfying about imagining, you know, rocker arms and connecting rods and how it all fits together and comes out to the world. Unknown Speaker 2:06:24 You know, it's a, it's crazy to think about because we spent all this time when we we work on just crazy tight time schedules, right. And so, like, it's a whirlwind, like I came in, and you're, you're getting parts and you're, you're building engines, and you're testing engines, and you're rebuilding engines, and you're getting new parts, and you're making the changes constantly constant constantly. And then all sudden, you sit back and you look one day, and it's out in the field. And I have to say it was just a it put a big smile on my face. The first day, I was driving home from work, and I passed the dealership, and I could see there was a there's a big superuser trimmer, of course, it's super shiny and catches your eye. And I could tell it wasn't a diesel. I was like, Ah, that it put a huge smile on my face. Because it's so exciting. Because when you see other people and they stop, and they want to see those things they want to get in them, you know, like, it gives you a great sense of pride. You know, and I'm personally, I think, the most fun I, the fun I had during the development work wasn't with the, the the engine components themselves, which, which I really was anticipating, you know, when I started my journey as an engine engineer, that that was gonna be the fun part. It was doing the splash testing. So they, they create this big trench of water and you drive through and splashes everywhere. I mean, it's like everything you've ever seen in every movie. It was a that was your five year old. Yeah, exactly like jumping in puddles. Again, it was, it was surprisingly fun for an entire day of driving, you know, under 40 miles an hour. anything surprising Unknown Speaker 2:07:48 about that? That sounds awesome. Sam Abuelsamid 2:07:51 As a former engineer myself that, you know, that is one of the things that people outside of the industry? Don't, you know, they've never experienced, you know, how much at, especially for vehicles like these trucks? How much? How many, and how many different kinds of durability tests have to be conducted? And this this is why it takes so long, I think for for these things to come to market. Unknown Speaker 2:08:11 Oh, yeah, it the array of testing we do. So I say kinda unique position, because I get to see both the engine stuff. And then I work on vehicle integration also. So I get to see the vehicle side. I mean, we have, you know, we'll run dozens and dozens of engines in the dyno to do all of our internal development for the engine components themselves, right, and our fuel economy and performance targets and to make sure everything's working the way we want. And then, I mean, we'll build hundreds of test vehicles, then, you know, to for every milestone where you put all the engines in, you test them, they go through all sorts of things, whether it's calibration and safety, and then they're your durability testing and handling testing. And I mean, it, it's just fascinating to see how many there are all the time and, and what's going on with them. And then we do a great job of making sure when they're all the testing is done. I mean, we pulled in every engine that was built during the development and tore down the entire team reviewed every one of those. I looked at all the pictures, we looked at every part to make sure that there was never anything that was going to be, you know, surprised us. You know, it was a big deal, because this is a big engine for us. It was a big project for us. And so there was a lot of work that went into it. And it was a it was a blast. Within what's next for you. For me, oh, I'm still working on the Godzilla systems team. We're actually in the middle of launching our 2022 medium duty trucks right now. So I'll be going to the plant on Monday to help with that. Sam Abuelsamid 2:09:44 Excellent. And then working on installing it in the 650 Unknown Speaker 2:09:51 they don't let me near as 650 Unfortunately, Sam Abuelsamid 2:09:54 not I mean s as in Sam 650 Yeah, Unknown Speaker 2:09:56 yeah. Dan Roth 2:09:58 Well, I'm out Questions. Sam. Rebecca, Do either of you have anything else you want us to follow up on with Ryan? Sam Abuelsamid 2:10:05 nothing for me, it's been great conversation. Ryan, I appreciate you taking the time with us. Rebecca Lindland 2:10:10 And just call us when the splashpad things up. And again, I want to do that. Unknown Speaker 2:10:15 I actually think we should sell tickets to I think people would pay to go ride around two things, you know, Dan Roth 2:10:21 you could get like hats and jackets and key fobs and make the Ford splashpad experience. Unknown Speaker 2:10:27 Yeah, it's like Magic Mountain that Disney truck Dan Roth 2:10:32 trucks. Do you have a seat in the bed to see Oh, yeah, Unknown Speaker 2:10:35 there you go. Dan Roth 2:10:36 We have a revenue stream. Unknown Speaker 2:10:40 You know, when I got it, when I was helping with a splash testing, it was like February, I don't think many people would want to sit in the back of it while you're splash of water. here in Michigan. That's, that's true with chili Shea. Sam Abuelsamid 2:10:53 I do have one more question for you, Ryan. If Ford said to you, Okay, go ahead. Design, whatever you want, you know, any kind of power train you want? What would it be? Unknown Speaker 2:11:05 Ooh. So I've always been a huge fan of a like, really well designed large, inline eight. So you see him in lots of pre war, those pre war cars. Yeah, yeah. You know, you see him and it's just gorgeous, because it's like a mile long, right? You know, and it's just so pretty, like the way everything lines up, and he gives you a beautiful long hood line and everything like I I'm sure that I could accomplish everything. I needed to have a power train that was much more compact, and efficient. But like a big Street, he just looks gorgeous. In my opinion. Dan Roth 2:11:48 I'm not gonna argue with that. I'm just imagining the crankshaft that weighs about 45,000 pounds. Unknown Speaker 2:11:56 Yeah, plenty of balance weight than Dan Roth 2:11:58 that, sir. Yeah. It's been a while since I've seen the straight eight. Yeah, really? I Unknown Speaker 2:12:03 mean, I don't know off the top my head. But you'd probably have to go back into the 15th. To probably find the last time one was made. Yeah, I had to guess. Dan Roth 2:12:12 You work or Pontiac or something? Yeah. Unknown Speaker 2:12:15 Yeah. No, that would, it would just be nice to see one of those in a car because you get this Big Comfy sedan have a nice beautiful hoodline. Right. Yeah, make that nice eight cylinder sound. Sam Abuelsamid 2:12:27 I would not check in with Ben would deal and see if he ever got his Packard running again. Dan Roth 2:12:33 Well, all right, well, so thanks very much for joining us on wheel bearings to talk about the new seven, three, and certainly have a standing invitation to come back and talk engines anytime or vehicle integration, whatever it is you want to talk about, you know, Unknown Speaker 2:12:48 feel free. Absolutely. Well, thank you guys very much for your time. Thank you, Dan. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, Rebecca. And hope you guys have a great afternoon. Rebecca Lindland 2:12:55 Thank you so much. Cheers. Dan Roth 2:13:00 Last week, we didn't get to it. But we had a question from Mark Wald. And Sam, he sent in another question as well, that you're you're going to get him a real answer on. Sam Abuelsamid 2:13:11 Yeah. So Mark, sent in a question just yesterday about how the the grid is going to hold up with all these TVs coming to market. And the company I worked for, you know, we're our parent company is a consulting firm and, you know, big part of the business. We do a lot of work with utilities. And there's a lot of my colleagues who have a lot more expertise in the area of utilities than I do. And so I'm going to get one of them to answer that question. We'll have that hopefully in the next episode. But for this one, let me read this as a fairly long email from Mark says, I'm a longtime listener back when Sam and Dan started on the podcast and was a fan from the first episode, where the information is relayed and broken down, is why I keep coming back. I have to admit that I use some of your logic in everyday conversations with people and use the arguments that you bring up in your podcast as ammunition for those conversations. Dan, we are sincerely sorry for that. Really, we are sorry, yeah. But most people listen to music on road trips, and I drive a lot but I always listen to your podcast and when I've listened to the latest one, I listened to others to really understand what you're talking about. And I agree with an email from the last podcast of 2020 that Dan is really soothing to listen to. Dan Roth 2:14:36 I love it. I think most people would disagree, but Sam Abuelsamid 2:14:42 I also rant and go off on tangents all the time. So it makes me smile. Well, I'm glad we can make you smile. I am one of the remaining few and I promised to hold on the generation of ivatan wagon lovers. I currently have a wagon a Volkswagen b 5.5 slot wagon for motion. We used to have one of those in our household as well. And over the years I've had the all rode a4 avant and even at one point that Jetta wagon TDI along with many GLS and GTS, we also had a whack a TDI wagon, which we sold back to Volkswagen for a very good price. I know this email has been all over the place, but I've been listening for so long that I felt I had to contribute to the conversation in some way. And here it is. And, okay, Mark, you know, it's just like the show, so no, don't worry about that. How do you think automakers will go about marketing new tech in regards to electric vehicles? Remember, when dodge came out with the brand Hemi and had an everyone had to have it? Even though most if not all, engines have a hemispherical cylinder. Now, nowadays, Dodge has managed to hold on to that nameplate and is still using a is still a huge selling point to a lot of people. How will manufacturers come up with a staple? And who do you think has done the best job at make bring those nameplates to market who you think has some work to do in terms of capturing the love? Thanks for continuing to make an awesome podcast I'll write in more often. Rebecca, what, why don't you tackle that one first, who's who's our manufacturer is going to handle marketing of this stuff. Rebecca Lindland 2:16:14 It'll be really interesting as we move towards ease where an engine is not the selling point. So you know, that it'll, it'll require some really creative marketing to package I range and charging time and, and things. You know, there's there's a sexiness and a familiarity things like horsepower, and I, you know, and cylinders, and and vocabulary that we have grown up with, that represents power and utility and capability, range charging time, what am I missing, you know, like, we have a new new vocabulary that we have to package, and that we have to make sexy. And that's the biggest challenge that I think we're facing today, you know, even Subaru has, you know, they've done a good job, obviously, with their, you know, love and puppies and things like that. But we, we have to understand what, what the market will look like. And, you know, there's a company called strategic vision out of San Diego that does a lot of new car buyers survey. And their philosophy is that you have to start with love, like people have to love their vehicles. And so how we define the attributes of love, as it relates to vehicles is changing, and mobility is changing, because the propulsion systems are changing. So that I think is going to be the biggest challenge that we have, obviously, Tesla, for all its controversies has managed to wrap that up. You know, everybody knows what when you say Tesla, everybody knows what that means. And so that's going to be the biggest challenge that I think that we face. You know, you mentioned Sq and you had to say, That's Mercedes electric vehicle line. You know, I think that will it'll be interesting to see, as we start to see the vehicles come out from companies like rivian, this year, Fisker next year, you know, some of these legacy brands, lucid air, how they package themselves, how they package their products to make them that one word that everybody wants, you know, Nike, everybody knows what Nike is and what they stand for. Just like everyone knows what Tesla stands for. Dan Roth 2:18:53 Yeah, I you know, it's overall with car marketing. I think that's part of the issue is that people have shifted from that long term shorthand of engines and performance and handling as ways to determine what's good and what's not. To now it's more about how it fits into your life and joy and a sense, I guess, that's sort of talks about the idea of love as well. The joy that it enables is, is the challenges you have to explain what this car regardless of how it goes down the road is going to do for you. You know, how is it facilitate your life and that's even now with current, you know, internal combustion cars that's that's the challenge and you're seeing it where a lot of the marketing and advertising just doesn't know how to talk to people. Rebecca Lindland 2:19:55 Well, they write they and I've said this before, where we has industry have not done a good job of explaining to a consumer, why Evie is better, a better solution for their mobility needs than an internal combustion engine. And it's right now. Dan Roth 2:20:15 There's a part of an Eevee experience. It's a hassle, you know, trying to charge is, and like you said, I think Tesla honestly, for all the grief we give them, they've done a really masterful job of naming their things so that it becomes shorthand. So they're their features Sam Abuelsamid 2:20:30 supercharger. Rebecca Lindland 2:20:32 Right, they addressed the what, arguably, is one of the biggest barriers was the charging, Yes, perfect. Dan Roth 2:20:39 Yeah, it's the it's the customer experience has been great. And that's it goes goes hand in hand, you know, the the customer experience has to be there. And then just the the ability to name the product in a way, that pretty instantly tells you what it is and what it does. They've been very good at that. I, you know, and and also the other thing that they've done, and I think all companies that are making TVs now have done this, to a certain degree is they focus on the acceleration and instant torque into the quickness of those vehicles, because that's, I think, easily accessible to everybody to understand. acceleration, no matter how it's achieved, is an impressive thing. You know, we have metrics for that the zero to 60 time the quarter mile time. So it's it's an easy way to try to explain what this car does in the sort of context of what every other car does. I don't think it's a great way to explain it. I don't think it's really useful. It's not even useful for regular cars, to be honest. You know, a better way to explain the benefit of EBS is certainly that they're they're kind of fuel agnostic, they don't really care what makes the electrons. So that decouples you from the the global warming concerns to a degree, obviously, there's that argument of well, you know, you can make the Eevee dirty as hell by you know, charging it up with coal power, sure, but renewables are growing at a fast rate. And so, as a brander or a marketer, you you try to accentuate the positive, and minimize those those negative aspects or be ready to counterpoint them. So that's, I think, what every automaker needs to do and I've seen you know, honestly, Ford has done a really good job with the Maki that upset everybody that they took their long established Mustang brand and tacked on a new name to it, but you say Maki, you know exactly what people are talking about. It's an electric Ford. So right, that that was pretty good as not bad for most, Sam Abuelsamid 2:22:38 you know, many of the automakers you know, are creating unique badging, or unique branding for their electric vehicles. Id Audi's got e Tron, Mercedes, all the electric, or all the plug in Mercedes are EQ something Hyundai is launching their ionic, you know, as their electric sub brand this year? Yeah. So, you know, they are that even that, but that's just one piece of the puzzle. As you said, Rebecca, you know, you have to figure out, you know, how do you get that message across about why this vehicle will suit your life? You know, what, what, what? How will it get the job done, that you need to get done with a vehicle Unknown Speaker 2:23:23 better? It has to be better? Sam Abuelsamid 2:23:25 how we'll do it better? Rebecca Lindland 2:23:27 How will it get better? You know, everyone was willing to move over to smartphones, from you know, a typical flip phone phone? Dan Roth 2:23:34 Because we're enthusiastic about that I think you might hear Rebecca Lindland 2:23:40 soothing, but we're, but it's better and not. Dan Roth 2:23:48 So good. Why is it better because of what it enables? Rebecca Lindland 2:23:51 Because it's convenient. It's exactly and so that's what as a marketer, I would focus on and IQ and be able to you have to demonstrate right how this is a better solution. And better. No doubt means more convenient for one, right. Dan Roth 2:24:09 And so this is the thing that me as a marketer, I would look at and say, You know what, maybe we do that, that ad campaign rollout because you have to do that to raise awareness. But one of the really effective ways that should be on the table is to actually do a lot of grassroots effort with with your TVs, you know, put a neighborhood effect. Yeah, you know, people just have to experience them. And the only way for them to experience them is to experience them, lend them out to people let them out with a charger or something like, you know, yes, it's going to take some costs and some effort but you're you're launching a vehicle, a new architecture for propulsion, and a new brand all at once. So you're probably going to be in the red for a while. You might want to make sure that you can you can have a path to to making that that profitable and it's going to take some aggressive effort. You can't just Drop it in your product line and not promote it. You know, it's like we've seen some with some of the compliance cars and stuff. We're at that point now where you've got to really want it or kind of don't bother because you're just gonna get lost. So Well, Sam Abuelsamid 2:25:15 I think that's where I think you know, gmms everybody in campaign could be very interesting, you know, because it basically saying, you know, easier for everyone now, you know, we've no matter what your need is from a small car like the bolt to big brawny, you know, off road pickup truck like the Hummer, and everything in between, you know, we've got you covered with an electric vehicle. Unknown Speaker 2:25:42 All right. Dan Roth 2:25:46 I will say too, though, that not every vehicle has a hemispherical chamber. Even the Hemi is not a Hemi. Unknown Speaker 2:25:51 That's true. Dan Roth 2:25:52 Problem with a Hemi is like when it's a true hemispherical, like half a grapefruit. The edges of the combustion chamber that size that down down the side of the the piston, it, you wind up with a cold charge, so it doesn't burn completely. So it's dirty. So it's it's a wedge. Actually, the Hemi is a wedge, but it's masterful branding, right that that hemispherical combustion chamber from the old days was a great brand they brought back because people knew that Hemi equals, you know, lots of power. Rebecca Lindland 2:26:22 And the every man people that they had in their commercials were Unknown Speaker 2:26:26 awesome. It was eyes were Dan Roth 2:26:30 like, that thing got to me. Like, that's, that's the kind of thing that I think, you know, you put clever people on it. And you'll have those kind of results with Yeah, so Unknown Speaker 2:26:39 yeah, brilliant. All Dan Roth 2:26:41 right. Hi, that's, that's a lot of podcast. So, thanks, everyone, for listening, you know where to find us at Patreon, which is patreon.com slash blue bearings, media, you can find us on your favorite podcasts as well, it would be great if you could leave us some reviews on Apple podcasts. That's actually the largest platform that we see everybody using. So the more you tell everybody how great we are, the more you'll be able to talk about our shows with other fans. Sam Abuelsamid 2:27:11 And the way Apple system works for their their charts, you know, it's based on reviews and and, and ratings. And so if you help us out by reviewing us on there, it'll help push us up on those on those tables. So more people see the show. Dan Roth 2:27:25 Yeah. So yeah, thanks for listening, and we'll talk to everybody next time. Unknown Speaker 2:27:38 Make some extra cash this holiday season driving with Lyft the rideshare app that treats you better, you can earn hundreds of dollars a week plus tips at Lyft drivers always come first. We've got your back with 24 seven support and it makes sure you start things off right. You can earn 20 $500 guaranteed for your first 200 rides. Apply at Lyft comm slash earn more, that's lyft.com slash earn more terms apply. Transcribed by https://otter.ai