Dan Roth  0:01  
Coming up on episode 188 of wheel bearings, we're driving the 2021 Honda Odyssey elite and 2021 Ford F 350 Lariat with 6.7 liter power stroke diesel. We talk about Sabine Schmitz Volkswagen power day and Jeeps, Easter Safari concepts. On top of all that Rebecca calls in from the road with more big wheel bearings, news. That's all I had on episode 188 of wheel bearings.

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This is wheel bearings. I'm Dan Roth from Forbes. 

Sam Abuelsamid  1:08  
And I'm Sam Abuelsamid. From guidehouse insights. 

Dan Roth  1:11  
And later on in the show. We'll have Rebecca from wherever Rebecca is 

Sam Abuelsamid  1:18  
from a secret undisclosed location somewhere. That's not here. 

Dan Roth  1:22  
Yeah. And above ground bunker, that Yes.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:26  
All right. And actually she won't be alone either. So that's good, too. Yes. Ooh, a tease.

Dan Roth  1:33  
Let's talk about what we're driving. I'm assuming Sam, you found uses for the 2021 Honda Odyssey elite. I had this just a couple of weeks ago, did you

take trips, go to IKEA anything.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:45  
I didn't make any trips to IKEA. I did go over to my daughter's apartment with some tools and other stuff to help her out with something. And, you know, for for this particular task. The Odyssey was perhaps a little bit of overkill could have managed it with with our civic, or, actually almost, Well, not quite with the Miata but

Dan Roth  2:08  
with a trailer with a Miata, right? It's Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  2:11  
exactly. But yeah, so I had the Odyssey elite, which is, you know, the latest and greatest version, it's got 280 horsepower 3.5 liter V six. This one was clearly built earlier in the 2021 model year, probably sometime last summer, or early fall, before Honda lost one of their suppliers for this vehicle because the the elite and I think a couple of other trim levels are available with a really cool feature which is the the Honda vac, in the which is a vacuum cleaner built into the back the left rear corner of the cargo area. And, you know, if you've ever had children, and if you have transported children in your motor vehicle, you would definitely understand the appeal of having a built in vacuum cleaner, particularly a shop back in built you know, right in the vehicle because especially with youngsters, you know, there are always scraps of stuff, crumbs, and straight french fries, whatever else, you know, not having to lug a vacuum cleaner out, plug it in and try to find all those things and scoop them up before the rodents and vermin get to them or, you know, nasty smells occur is very handy. Unfortunately, you know, I mentioned shop back in there. Unfortunately, during the course of 2020, the pandemic Shopback actually declared bankruptcy and stopped production of all of their products. And so Honda announced a few months ago that they were discontinuing that option, simply because they couldn't get the shop back they are actually working on getting another supplier for that bankruptcy. You know, this is a chapter 11 bankruptcy for Shopback not chapter seven, you know, they are going through a reorganization they may end up you know, restarting production at some point whether or not they do restart production of these vacuums for Honda remains to be seen. But if you are interested in a minivan with a built in vacuum, you know, there are there are no almost certainly some Odysseys still out in inventory and dealers lots around the country. So I would definitely recommend if you're looking for a van that you look for one of those,

Dan Roth  4:34  
I thought the Pacifica now has a vacuum in it as well. One of the one of the competitors, maybe the Sienna

Sam Abuelsamid  4:42  
I see is brand new.

Dan Roth  4:43  
Yeah, I think somebody else is offering a vacuum as well. And you know, it's a good cleaning tool. And with kids. It's a great threat. When they hit that age and they start to bicker. It's like listen, I will suck the last breath out of your lungs with that. Not stop.

Sam Abuelsamid  4:59  
Yeah, that's the I hadn't thought about that I wasn't, you know, I wasn't gonna go down that dark path. You know,

Dan Roth  5:05  
we have a little edge out here.

Sam Abuelsamid  5:08  
But aside from the vacuum cleaner, you know, the rest of the Odyssey is fairly conventional. You know, you've got new Currently, we still have four, three and a half kind of main competitors in the minivan space. We've got the Pacific from Chrysler, the brand new Toyota Sienna that just launched both of those, interestingly, are available with electrified power trains, you've got a plug in hybrid in the Pacifica, you've got standard hybrid powertrain non plug in, in the Odyssey, sorry, the Sienna. And then there's also the Kia Carnival, which is the replacement for the Sedona, which is going sort of slightly more crossover ish. But there's no, there's no hybrid powertrain in that one either. And that's a relatively low volume player in this market compared to the other three. So the Odyssey is kind of the last one that is sticking, at least for now with just a traditional gasoline powertrain. The current Odyssey it just got a refresh for the 2021 model years probably got another two years to model years to go before it gets a complete replacement. And I would guess at that point, that it will probably get an electrified powertrain of option of some sort either hybrid or plug in hybrid. Because the Odyssey shares platforms with Honda Acura as other big, bigger utility vehicles like the pilot and the MDX the MDX already offers hybrid systems in it as well as the ridgeline pickup truck. So, for now, you're stuck with the 280 horsepower 3.5 liter Honda v six, which is an excellent engine straight stuck.

Dan Roth  6:53  
I mean, yeah, come on. It's good. The

Sam Abuelsamid  6:56  
reason the reason I say stuck is while I love the the Honda v six, it's a great engine. Even with the 10 speed automatic that's in this thing. I didn't get outstanding fuel economy.

Dan Roth  7:09  
Yeah, was it in the teens,

Sam Abuelsamid  7:10  
it's officially rated at 22 combined by EPA 19 City 28 Highway, I was getting about 18.

Dan Roth  7:17  
Yeah, that's about what I got with that 1819, something like that.

Sam Abuelsamid  7:20  
And you know, so that's not great, especially, you know, when you consider what you can get from the competitors from from Chrysler and from Toyota. Aside from that, you know, the rest of it is really great. Honda was the first one to offer the interior camera system that is also available on the Pacific. And now that has cameras mounted in the headliner, lets you keep tabs on what's going on in the second and third rows, and display it on the center touchscreen. Again, if you've got young kids, you know, especially if they're, they're really young, you know, toddlers or babies that are in a child seat, I know when my kids were little, we would always get in one of these little convex mirrors, you mount on the sun visor, or somewhere, you know, so you could try to see what's going on in the back and it was always obstructed and it was never ever a great view Plus, you couldn't really see much in the dark either with the you know the camera system that's in here, you get a clear view of what's going on in both the second and third rows from from overhead so you can see you know, if the kid needs some help or you know, if there's if there's some interaction undesirable interaction going on between multiple siblings

Dan Roth  8:32  
I did like the surveillance abilities. And and it because it also has night vision mode, so it'll it'll forget IR so you you can see stuff like you were talking about in the dark you can you can see how things are going without having to turn on a light and destroy night visibility.

Sam Abuelsamid  8:50  
Yeah, and there's also a communication system that microphones in the ceiling that lets you talk you know, if you got you know, if one of your kids wants to sit decides they want to sit in the back, the third row be away from everybody. You can still talk to them back there without shouting at them. Things like that. Did

Dan Roth  9:07  
you try Did you try it with like Daisy put Daisy in the back and call to her anything? Yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  9:12  
I mean, she doesn't really respond to stuff like

Dan Roth  9:14  
that. So I tried it out. It makes you feel like like an old time PA announcer like all I can think of is the Lou Gehrig like farewell speech like today today today. You can you can hear it's a type echo. It feels really strange. I think you get used to it and it probably will help if you've got people in that third row consistently but for the second row it's more of a more of a little gimmick but it's it's a thing. I think that's kind of spreading. Honda is not the only one that does it. I think Toyota also does it.

Sam Abuelsamid  9:47  
Yeah. And this is something we're gonna see in a lot of vehicles going forward. You know what these systems are doing? They know what audio is playing on the you know, the what audio there The system is producing. So if you're listening to the radio or something like that, and you say something you want to interrupt, you know, or in the case of some vehicles, you know, using a wake word for a voice assistant, it knows what's playing. So it can often mostly pick out your voice out of that, and actually interrupt what's going on. And then it so you don't have to press any buttons or anything like that, which is really handy. It's everything you can do to reduce the distractions for the driver. Yeah, you know, trying to try to find the button or things like that. I think that that's, that's a real benefit. I'm, you know, I personally, you know, no longer have a use for that, you know, my kids are adults and gone. But I think, you know, I know that when my kids were younger, I definitely would have loved to have something like this when we were doing road trips, especially

Dan Roth  10:54  
if you can turn it up and make it real loud and get their attention like

Sam Abuelsamid  10:57  
but it's it is one of those you can also add some bass yeah reverb to that voice of God,

Dan Roth  11:02  
like you need to stop the the hardware is all there Do I have to

Sam Abuelsamid  11:07  
pull over this car

Dan Roth  11:09  
Do I need to make it flood down the there's already mics in there for the phone, you know, the there's already the audio hardware and all the systems are integrated. Now it's not like you need to patch one to the other, you need some kind of switchboard. So it's interesting the things that have been made possible by the way, vehicle electrical systems have become networked and really, like it's all just one big computer network. And it is really it's like a phone system. If you want it to get it into like, if somebody's listening on the headphones, I'm assuming it'll drop your voice into the headphones depending on you because you can with the you can get there using the

Sam Abuelsamid  11:47  
rear seat entertainment system with headphones, it'll it'll patch into there as well.

Dan Roth  11:52  
So that's it's, it seems like a silly little feature and then you think about what you have to do to pull it off. And as with so many things, it's you go out that's actually pretty clever. And it took some time to sort that out. And if it's not useful, don't use it. Otherwise, it's it's virtually no cost thing for them to be able to add.

Sam Abuelsamid  12:15  
Yep, one you know one other thing I did notice about this after being in a number of more recently introduced vehicles over recent months that are getting larger and larger screens. The eight inch center touchscreen theodicy seems miniscule by comparison especially like I was just in the the Lincoln Nautilus a couple of weeks ago, the 13 inch display in there. And the eight inch display in the in the Odyssey just seems so quaint now Well

Dan Roth  12:45  
yeah, and hunter doesn't help them selves out with graphics and UI that's a little bit behind the curve as well. It seemed responsive enough when I had it I don't know how your experience was with actually using the system. I was just at least glad that it's not that to screen knob control without a screen business they had not too long ago.

Sam Abuelsamid  13:05  
Well that was only ever an accurate anyway. Maybe that's another guy just never did those in the Honda's. That was that was an Acura exclusive thankfully

Dan Roth  13:14  
you have to pay more to suffer a Honda their digital systems, they're just they've been difficult to use I've found in the Odyssey at least it's it's easy enough to use the system isn't isn't great. It's not that deep. So it's not that that hard to get used to. Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  13:31  
yeah, the interface is fine. It's reasonably responsive, it didn't crash or anything on me didn't do anything silly. The it does have support for Apple CarPlay and Android Auto but both wired no wireless support yet. So it's you know, it's it's a decent system you know, I can live with it. The the elite that I had the the blu ray DVD entertainment system with wireless headphones available leather trim inside one of the unique features of the Odyssey that you won't find in any other van to my knowledge is the second row seats that slide both forward and back and side to side with the the second row seat you've got two seats in the second row, two captains chairs, and you can either spread them out to the the outer perimeter and have a walk through in between to the third row. Or you can slide either of the seats to the middle position. And so you can walk through on the side. So in the old days, you know, when when I was young when minivans were still a new thing. And they only had a door on one side. It typically had the the second row seat was moved was moved over towards the driver side of the vehicle because the sliding door was only on the passenger side and so you could get through to the third row that way. Now with drawers on both doors on both sides, you can actually slide it back and forth side both of the second row seats Side to side as well. Which is can be a very handy feature depending on how people want to sit if you want to have your a young child you know baby or toddler in a child seat in the in the middle position so that, for example, a parent in the front passenger seat, not in the not in the driver's seat, when you're at your passenger seat, it reached back and attend to that kid, you can have them in the center. Or if you've got older kids that you want, physically separated a little bit, at least by you know, 1824 inches, you have that option as well,

Dan Roth  15:33  
by an arms fit, you know, the nice thing that you can teach those kids when they get a little unreleased that you can unlock the side to side sliding and go around corners, especially curves. I don't recommend it and as a response

Sam Abuelsamid  15:49  
to that you could unlock them, I think sell vehicles in motion,

Dan Roth  15:53  
I think you can. And once it was one of the other there's I'm trying to remember which vehicle it was that we we played around with it wasn't the last Odyssey we had, but I noticed that it does have the you can spread the seats out a little bit, which is helpful. But I it was a couple years ago I remember you can you can unlock the sliding the side to side sliding and then you go through some S curve and it's like whack whack.

Sam Abuelsamid  16:21  
Alright, yeah.

Dan Roth  16:22  
So how did you think the interior quality was because that's the elite. And so it's supposed to be the nicest and I felt my biggest gripe about that was the interior is nice, but it doesn't feel as nice as the nice interiors in other vans. I'm thinking particularly of the Pacifica because I haven't been in the Sienna yet. But also, it's loud. Like those were my two biggest gripes about it.

Sam Abuelsamid  16:47  
Yeah. The you know, the interior in the Odyssey is nice enough, you get leather seating, the materials are generally you know, good all around Honda's pretty good about that. But compared to say, the Pacifica Pinnacle, especially the newest high end version, but even like the limited models they've had and prior model leaders, you know, it's not it's not on the same level as the Pacific the Pacifica You know, I think I haven't I haven't been inside the new Sienna yet. So I can't say for sure. But the the Pacific i think is is really the the earliest it was the class of the field, up until just now with the Sienna. And now the new Kia Carnival, Carnival actually looks really good too. So the the Odyssey is not quite on that level, even in the elite trim. And then it also it is louder than the others that you know, the V six sounds really good. But you do get more of that. That engine noise coming through and more a little bit more road noise coming through the Pacific is definitely feels more refined on the road overall. And so that that is something to keep in mind. Now, if you're interested in something that maybe feels a little bit more sporty, like you're interacting with it a little bit more sense that really, you're getting more feedback from it. Yeah, then the Odyssey is perhaps maybe the better choice for you is I think, either the Pacific or the, the Sienna, you know, particularly Sienna, you know, because its standard hybrid system is generally I think it'd be a little more quiet. And then the Pacifica plug in hybrid is also obviously very quiet most of the time. So I think that the the Sienna, the the Odyssey is definitely more of the it's got more of the traditional Honda feel to it.

Dan Roth  18:41  
Yeah, I agree. I, I really did like the way the chassis actually feels. There's this thing actually feels a little sporty. There's steering feel here, which was really surprising. So it's good to drive. It's just around town is better than on the highway. It's it's got a little road noise in the highway that gets fatiguing. But

Sam Abuelsamid  19:00  
the Odyssey elite that I drove, was priced at $49,335 including 12 $100 delivery charge or sorry 11 $120 delivery charge being a parent, which is not cheap, but it's in it's in the same ballpark as recent Pacific as I've driven. So it's it's certainly price competitive. And I think that the last Pacific a pinnacle I had been even more than I think it was up into the 50s like in the low 50s. So these vehicles are like all vehicles are getting more expensive to buy. But you do get a lot for your money.

Dan Roth  19:37  
Yeah, well, that's the thing too. I think if you're going to push into the $50,000 tier more aggressively, they're going to need something like the hybrid like you know, or more luxury, maybe an accurate version would help them get there.

Sam Abuelsamid  19:54  
I don't, I don't see an accurate version of the Acura minivan coming anytime. in the foreseeable future, when they replace this with another conventional Odyssey, there will certainly be a hybrid and, and probably a plug in hybrid version available. One thing that just occurred to me is the possibility that Honda actually has a deal with GM. They're getting two electric vehicles from GM off the ultium. platform, one for the Honda brand, one for the Acura brand. And they've described them as crossovers.

Unknown Speaker  20:27  
Hmm.

Sam Abuelsamid  20:28  
But given the way that the minivan segment has continued to shrink over the years, I wonder if what they might end up doing is replacing the Odyssey with something that a battery battery electric vehicle that is perhaps a little more crossover, like, you know, kind of the direction that the key is taken with the carnival is they replace the Sedona, they've given it styling that is a little more crossover, like, you know, it's still, you know, clearly very much minivan but hot key is not even referring to the carnival as either minivan or a crossover. They're calling it an MPV, a multi purpose vehicle. So I wonder if Honda might go a similar path and use their altium vehicle as a replacement for the Odyssey.

Dan Roth  21:16  
It's not a bad move. I mean, it's it's not like the minivan is really all that different from a crossover. It's just it's almost like the differences in the top hat. Really. So yeah. We'll see I GM has never really been super successful with vans. So maybe it's GM hardware and Honda club.

Sam Abuelsamid  21:38  
It's gonna be the GM altium. skateboard,

Dan Roth  21:41  
right? Which doesn't doesn't really matter.

Sam Abuelsamid  21:43  
Yeah. Then Then a Honda top hat on top of that. Hmm.

Dan Roth  21:47  
Wow. Well, like their their do their everybody else's refresh their vans. So the next Odyssey will be hopefully a leap from this one.

Sam Abuelsamid  21:56  
Alright, what do you have,

Dan Roth  21:57  
so I had another Ford truck, I had the F 350. Super Duty with the 6.7 liter diesel and the tremor package. So I've had enough of these now where I can kind of go off the top of my head and say, the diesel is gonna cost you $10,000. The trimmer package is upgraded suspension and skid plates. There's 1000 plus pound feet of torque in this thing. So it is absurdly quick, with nothing in it. It's just like, yeah, there's and it's a solid axle trucks, I believe it's a solid front axle as well as a solid rear axle. So a lot of you know, like your F 150s or 1500 grade trucks will have independent front suspension. So they behave a little better. This is a little bit more stiff, a little bit more old school, but it's did behaves pretty well. If you get it over broken pavement, it'll it'll jiggle around a bit because it is a little stiff with the tremor package especially but they've got enough sway bar in there to make it corner better than you really then you imagine it should. So it's a good truck. The new f 150 is the standard for Ford. So you know what's already out there. And the super duties is, is going to be brought to that level when they refresh it. So look for a larger screen and different materials and design and stuff over the air software updates and

Sam Abuelsamid  23:24  
yeah, all that good stuff. Yeah, I'm just looking at the superduty specs, they the four by two, f 250 and F 350 still have the classic, this expensive, this old twin eyebeam front suspension system,

Dan Roth  23:41  
the twin IBM which is like no man, my dad's that 50 head that's negative camber all the time because that's,

Sam Abuelsamid  23:47  
you know that that the twin IBM's you know, basically essentially really long control arms you know, where the pivot point is, the pivot point for the left wheel would be over to the right of the engine. And the pivot point for the right front wheel would be to the left to the engineer so they're going across Yeah, it's almost like to to independently pivoting beam axles are solid axles for each front wheel.

Dan Roth  24:15  
Yeah, I never understood the geometry behind that because it's it always seemed to me like with such a long, lower control arm you get you get weird what you do you get weird camber going on with it as it as it goes through its,

Sam Abuelsamid  24:28  
well you're actually going to get because you've got such a long pivot arm, you're gonna have less camber change. Oh, big, you know, because if you think about it, you know what, think about where the where the pivot point is. You've got from from that pivot point, the radius out to where the wheel is actually moving. You know, if you think about the arc of a circle, a longer radius circle, it's going to be flatter through that region where where the wheels actually moving up and down.

Dan Roth  24:59  
That way Makes sense it's just then I guess. I guess what happens too is like whatever the I don't I don't really know what the twin I beam front suspension looks like. Like to service right, I left home before the truck needed to be worked but that that upper control arm then yeah, I don't know I always just remember seeing the the economy lines going down the road and they were like, except to rally sort of saggy look in front end where they'd wear the inside of that front tire.

Sam Abuelsamid  25:34  
And then they the for the four by fours like what you had the tremor, it's got what they refer to as a mano beam Manuel springs moto

Dan Roth  25:43  
COVID solid X ray. We stuck a Dana 44 under there or whatever it is. Yeah, it's, it gets a rugged truck. And it's designed to do work. So a lot of the features are designed around that the in the bed, it has the I forget what it's called. It's like Ford connect or something. So it's got the system where there's four basic anchor points, and then they're like cleats and you can get the accessories that go across the bed and stuff like that. motorized running boards, which we've talked about before, super handy because it is it's a tall beast and we are fun size people. So it's difficult to get in without it. I'm just imagining uses for that. That diesel Did you managed to pull out that stump yet? No, I'm pulled anything it would been ferrying kids around we did we took it skiing though.

Sam Abuelsamid  26:33  
You could you could just relocate your house with that.

Dan Roth  26:35  
I could I could. I'm trying to imagine like what you would use that much torque for and I saw the friend is like, let's go steal some RV. It's you could just hook them up and boost them like they're not gonna catch you. Even if you're getting a police chase. It's not gonna care that's hauling an RV You know, it doesn't care for five or 10,000 pound RV it's not gonna matter.

Sam Abuelsamid  26:54  
Especially f 354 by four.

Dan Roth  26:59  
Oh, the four by four may reduce your your towing a bit.

Sam Abuelsamid  27:01  
Well, the the single rear wheels, 15,000 pounds, the dually is 20,000 pounds.

Dan Roth  27:07  
Yeah. Single rear wheel is what we've gotten the drive and how to do a rear wheel press car in a long time. That's a lot of weight that when you think about what normal people tell like that's, that's a lot. And I know that the Super Duty isn't designed just for normal people. So that's part of it.

Sam Abuelsamid  27:27  
That's that's that's actually the conventional towing.

Dan Roth  27:30  
A fifth wheel or gooseneck is more

Sam Abuelsamid  27:32  
with a fifth wheel at 354 by four. Single Wheel is 22,400 pounds dually. You can go with the 4.1 to one rear axle ratio. Oh man. 35,400 pounds.

Dan Roth  27:49  
Okay, so,

Sam Abuelsamid  27:50  
so you could pretty much take your house?

Dan Roth  27:52  
I don't Yeah, I don't know if my house weighs 35,000 pounds. I haven't calculated out what a house weighs.

Sam Abuelsamid  28:00  
If you go to the for 5450 dually rear wheel drive 37,000 pounds.

Dan Roth  28:06  
Yeah, it's I also I'm trying to figure out where that that Gulf is where you actually need a commercial license versus just your regular Driver's Ed, maybe it doesn't matter when you're just an individual towing something to versus like towing for your backhoe is for like,

Sam Abuelsamid  28:24  
it's like, I think that there is a threshold, you know, based on like vehicle class, I think, you know, class, certainly class five and above. I think you have to have a commercial driver's license. So that's like, over, I think it's over 14,000 pounds gross vehicle weight.

Dan Roth  28:42  
Yes, this probably doesn't get there. It's probably not quite 14,000 pounds. It's it's not a light truck. But it's not.

Sam Abuelsamid  28:48  
It's not that heavy. The weight classes are based on gross vehicle weight, which is combination of curb and payload.

Dan Roth  28:54  
Right.

Sam Abuelsamid  28:54  
So the curb weight for the 350 diesel single rear wheel is 7300 pounds heavier than I thought. Wow. Is it did you have short wheelbase or long wheel?

Dan Roth  29:10  
I think this is four by twos. Oh, it's only four by two with the long wheelbase.

Sam Abuelsamid  29:16  
Looks like that's that's the super cap. Sorry. You had crew cab. Crew cam. Yeah. So Crew Cab s there are so many.

Dan Roth  29:22  
I know we're gonna be here all day.

Sam Abuelsamid  29:25  
But yeah, that's still 7700 pounds for a long wheelbase four by four with the diesel

Dan Roth  29:34  
that's heavier than I thought it is a tuna boat. It's a little difficult to maneuver in tight parking lots

Sam Abuelsamid  29:39  
because it is kind of long. But that's okay. So then its payload is three about 3000 pounds plus class four is 14 to 16,000 pounds.

Dan Roth  29:50  
Yeah, so it doesn't get there though.

Sam Abuelsamid  29:52  
Yeah, so I think class five is over 1616 to 19,000 pounds. So that's, I think where you have to have a commercial driver's license. Yeah, the class for you can drive without a CDL

Dan Roth  30:03  
I don't want somebody towing 30,000 pounds without knowing what they're doing behind you in front of me. That's fine. You do whatever you want. what's what's,

Sam Abuelsamid  30:12  
what's the heaviest trailer you've ever towed?

Dan Roth  30:14  
Uh, not, not anywhere above maybe a couple 1000 pounds. I haven't even told a car. I not any appreciable distance. Anyway, I,

Sam Abuelsamid  30:26  
I've, I've told a 12,000 pound trailer. And that is an experience. And you do need some some training before you do that, especially on mountain roads. Yeah. Fortunately, you know, I did this during, like a decade ago on a GM heavy duty truck, launch drive 2010. And it was in West Virginia. And so one of their engineers, you know, gave me a lesson in how to drive and maneuver with a 12,000 pound trailer on the back. And there's a lot more momentum there. Once you get up to speed. You have to be really careful. Fortunately, modern trucks like this tremor, and you know, all the other modern trucks. One of the cool new features they have in here is trailer sway control. Yep, is when you get a big trailer like that. And you're driving down the highway. And if you get a crosswind or something like that, or even just small motions of the vehicle, that get that thing, moving back and forth like a pendulum.

Dan Roth  31:27  
Yeah, it starts to amplify, as you correct. And it does,

Sam Abuelsamid  31:30  
yeah. And so all modern trucks have trailer sway control standard on there. So it's looking, it's basically an extension of the stability control, where it's looking for motions of the vehicle, relative to what your actual input is. And if it detects it starting to sway, it will actually start applying the brakes on the kind of the rear wheels, or maybe the front or maybe for opposing to sort of steer it. Yeah, so it will start pulsing one one side to the other, to try to stabilize it and get it back under control again. And it works really well. Yeah,

Dan Roth  32:08  
yeah, those are the kinds of things that that integrated Trailer Brake Controllers like back in not too long ago, those are all things you'd have to add to the truck. And now they'll have it even has an exhaust brake because it has the variable, a variable nozzle turbo, so it can just close it down and give you that that sort of back pressure. that slows it down with compression. So it's really it's set up to work. So it feels kind of ridiculous driving around, like, you know, just taking the kids to dance with. But mostly what I've been doing as I take one of the kids to dance as I've been explaining the the we've been using the piano audio system, and I've been explaining the Fletcher Munson curve to her, which is she's into music now. And so is explaining the different different mixes and things she hears cuz she likes like 80s music and and so I can explain some things and just like why do you like that song? Why do you like that band they saw? So we'll put on the phone, I'll just skip things. Why are you skipping them because they hate them. But so the Fletcher Munson curve is the is the the frequency response of the human ear plotted against sound pressure level and they sorted the cross at about 85 db. And that's where your your ear sort of flattens out and has the most even frequency response I was explaining. I don't know if my 15 year old understood it, but she liked it when we played stuff loud.

Sam Abuelsamid  33:28  
Well, that's the thing about being a parent is you know, you get to get the, the, you're free to explain things like that, whether they understand it or care about it.

Dan Roth  33:36  
Yeah, it gives me a chance to just explain the things that excite me. So I've been explaining the difference between chamber and plate reverbs and stuff. Like, Oh, that's a chamber. I like chambers.

Sam Abuelsamid  33:46  
As an audio guy, let me ask you that, you know, my, I'm less attuned to, you know, subtle differences in sound quality. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I can, I can I'll, I'll detect gross things like I've got one pair of wireless earbuds that sound okay, for listening to podcasts. But as soon as you put on music, you know, the bass and you know, even the lower mid range is really muddy and just, they're really awful. And they actually happen to be BNL. But that's a whole other story. So I'm curious, you know, somebody who is more attuned to sound than I am, what, what did you think of the BNF system?

Dan Roth  34:26  
It's well and that was I think sort of where I was going is like it's good once you get it up in that sweet spot. Once you get it playing loud enough to sound decent, it sounds decent, it's car audio systems tend to always do the boom and sparkle thing where they have overemphasize bass and and high end and that there's that scoop in the middle. We used to call it the smiley face EQ curve back when he had graphic equalizers, we boost the low end and the high end. And that's, that's sort of something you do when you play it at lower volumes when you're not putting out that kind of sound. That's that's basically you're allowed to switch on your, your old receiver and it does the same thing it sort of lifts up both ends of the the, the frequency response, it sounds more full, when it's not moving as much air. I'm not a real fan of the piano systems otherwise they generally they're okay i overpaying for for car audio systems is a thing. Now like they'll give you the the branded system and it's all fancy and none of them sound really good across. Generally all brands there's a couple that impressed me but it's such a crappy environment for

Sam Abuelsamid  35:39  
you're not that's the thing. You're right, it is a it's a bad ambient environment. Because there's so much other stuff going on.

Dan Roth  35:45  
You got the noise, you've got resonance, like the car is made out of metal. If you're going to build speakers, you don't want to build them out of sheet metal you want to build them out of like roofing tile, like the Terek something dense, you know, like lead. You don't you don't want to build them out of out of that's why so many speaker cabinets or MDF because it's much more dense than even like some some kind of hardwood which is just gonna resonate sympathetically and it's gonna screw you and there's you know, that's a it's a very deep rabbit hole. I

Sam Abuelsamid  36:18  
Well, you know, but the thing is, like you said, Neil, every almost every automaker is offering branded premium audio systems or what they call premium audio systems in their vehicles. Now, you know, Ford used to use Sony A couple years ago they

Dan Roth  36:35  
did not like the Sony system.

Sam Abuelsamid  36:36  
I didn't remember Stover to be no play, which is actually different from being Oh like Big Bang and Olufsen. The company bang and Olson they originally established the b&o play sub brand, I don't know a decade ago, as they're like more. They're they're more mainstream, lower cost brand. And then after a few years, they sold it off to Harman so it is yet another Harman brand.

Dan Roth  37:02  
Yeah. Harman is one of those that like they basically own car

Sam Abuelsamid  37:06  
car. They're like the Exotica. Yeah, Exotica owns all the eyeglass brands, Harman owns most of the audio Car Audio brands

Dan Roth  37:15  
they do I think that one of the independence is still Bose and you know, I've talked about Bose, but their stuff sounds different. It can be pleasing, both tends to be kind of warm and mushy. So it's it has that more impressive sound at lower lower volume levels. Bose their tech tends to be like we took all of these tiny little speakers and wired them together so that it worked like a giant spinning like it's great. So I phase artifacts is anytime you've got lots of crossovers in electronics going on, like the thing you hear. And even when you use an equalizer, you don't hear the equalization, you hear the phase artifacts that that of what you're doing is more more what you're doing. So in studio gear, like we talked about, well, I could I could do this and it was really clean. It's we use, there's two different kinds of EQ generally there's there's f IR, which is finite impulse response, and IR which is infinite impulse impulse response. f IR filters, it's a lot more math. And I think I may have this backwards, but they sound cleaner. And you can you can actually be more surgical with them. So if you actually want to use it as a correction versus an effect, you know, the older stuff that everybody likes, it has a tone. It has a tone because it's full of artifacts and stuff. So that's all we're really listening to in an automotive environment is like what vibrates what interacts with other things your off axis I hate surrounding cars absolutely despise it. It always just sounds weird to me. Unless you have something that is surrounded, coded and that it moves it to the right place, but I don't I don't like it. I'm picky. Oh, some

Sam Abuelsamid  38:55  
some of these. Look, you know, modern infotainment systems have you know, they've got DSPs in there. They're creating all kinds of different sound fields. Yeah. You know, like an A Volvo's and census. You know, one of the options is this concert hall surround, which always sounds really weird. Sounds hollow it

Dan Roth  39:13  
sounds because yeah, it's it's adding a little bit of ambient. It's adding a little bit of reverb basically. And so that messes again, with your your frequency response. It's, it's, it's a little bit of pre delay and a little bit of reverb on the backside. So pre delay is it it delays what goes into the reverb so you get that distinct like, the actual impulse, the actual sound, and then as it enters the reverb, there's a delay in between there. And then you get your reverb tail. And I don't know, I don't honestly want to listen to a car that sounds like I'm in a church. Like that's like, that's just too much space around. It's funny to play with the modes too. And just watch how it just collapses when you hit stereo. I'm just like, Well, here's how everything actually sounds when we're not fiddling with it. Here's what the drivers do. And if If you want good car audio, you need expensive drivers, you need a lot of power, and you need a lot of sound deadening. And that's why I like something like dynamat works pretty well, but you have to use like jute on top of it because dynamat increases the mass of the panels so that it doesn't vibrate. It's basically a tar paper, you put on the back of your, your panel so that that panel now you've increased the resonant frequency of it, and you've got to do all that stuff to make Car Audio good. You're not no automaker is going to do that, to the degree that I'm going to want. Because I'm so picky. I do like how Porsche does like they actually integrate the enclosures and stuff into the structure of the car, which is clever, because it doesn't take up space, you're not like putting a speaker enclosure somewhere, you're designing a cavity in the unibody.

Sam Abuelsamid  40:51  
Well, that's the thing, the thing that we're going to start seeing in the next few years, and I've gotten a few demonstrations of this now from Hitachi, and now that division of Hitachi, or Clarion was acquired a couple years ago by for sia, big, big automotive supplier is this idea of actually eliminating the the traditional speaker driver, and actually mounting actuators on the backside of various surfaces of the vehicle using those surfaces as the essentially the speaker cone. And actually, you know, stationary, actually sounds surprisingly good.

Dan Roth  41:32  
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the, I'd love to hear that. Because that that is sort of, you know, when you get a source like that, when you get it to radiate, you, you really do get a sense of the sound just being part of the ambient surroundings. And then all you have to do is figure out how to package the low frequency stuff, how to package a subwoofer.

Sam Abuelsamid  41:52  
Well, and you know, one of one of the things that you can do with that is, for example, put actuators in the seat. Yep. And, you know, in the headrest, and they're, you know, they're much smaller than traditional speakers, he's a lot easier to package. And you can create little sound bubbles, yeah, round each individual seat so individuals can listen to different things without disturbing each other. And also, at the same time, you know, have have decent sound and not not have to use headphones. So I think it's a, it's a really interesting approach, and we'll see how you know how people like it, but in the demos I've had, it actually works shockingly well.

Dan Roth  42:33  
And I derailed the podcast I'm sorry. Alright.

Sam Abuelsamid  42:39  
Just a couple thoughts on Sabine Schmitz for those not familiar with her, you know, she's a racecar driver. She grew up near the Nurburgring. Her family owned a hotel adjacent to the Nurburgring. So she lived in that area her entire life and has driven there for decades. She was 51, when she died, she was one of the most successful racecar drivers on the on the rank. She won the 24 hours of the Nurburgring twice, and won countless other races. Among her other things that she did, you know, the many things that she did during her lifetime, was being a ring taxi driver, you've probably heard about, you know, going and driving on the Nurburgring. They have a whole lot of a bunch of public days, you know, when it's not closed for automaker testing or for races. On the public days, you can pull up to the gate at the Nurburgring pay. I don't know what the fee is. Now when I was there. I was about kullander about 20 bucks. Watch. And in literally anything that you're driving.

Dan Roth  43:41  
Where are we? It's why do we not do that here?

Sam Abuelsamid  43:47  
product liability lawyers,

Dan Roth  43:48  
I don't think but they're German there. They've got no no fewer, no shortage of persnickety lawyers.

Sam Abuelsamid  43:55  
So you can literally pay the fee. Take a lap of the ring and whatever you've got the first time I did it was in an Audi 90 rental car and it was a front wheel drive manual transmission. And when I got off the track, you know, I got out and took a look at the tires. They were just completely feathered. There was smoke coming out of the brakes. It was hysterical.

Dan Roth  44:18  
And it's a rental since you just hand it back that way.

Sam Abuelsamid  44:20  
Yeah, exactly. If you're not inclined to drive it yourself, and you really want to have the ring experience. The other option you have is taking a ring taxi and they have a fleet of BMW five series m fives mostly. And you can ride along with a professional driver that knows the track. I mean, this is a 13 and a half mile long track 120 some odd corners. I drive it all the time in granturismo now but I've driven it a few times in real life. And it's a it's a phenomenal track. It is the kind of track that would never get built in the 21st century. Because it's incredibly dangerous, many people have died there. But Sabine Schmitz, you know, one of the things that she did was she was a ring taxi driver. And I would have loved to have taken a lap with her. I never met her, but I have had the opportunity to ride shotgun a few times with other racecar drivers, including at the Nurburgring. Back in 2010. I went on a trip with Buick for the launch of the Buick Regal, which was being built in Germany, it was based on the Opel Insignia. And part of the drive we went to the Nurburgring drove drove some laps around the Nordschleife in leading follow mode. So were they had to have their Opel DTM drivers DTM, German racing series mantra winkelhock and yocan. Mass, they were going at a pretty good pace, but because they knew where the where to go where the lines where, you know, is a lot safer and easier for us to just follow them. And then after we were done with that, we got to hop in the car with them. They were driving, they were each driving the insignia GS, which is the turbocharged three liter V six 300 horsepower, all wheel drive version of it. And when I rode with yoke and mass, and it was just a phenomenal experience. Yeah, I mean, this guy knows the the ring, you know, I mean, it, probably not quite as experienced as Sabine Schmitz. But you know, he's driven there countless times. And it's, it's an if you like a thrill ride, if you're in Germany, go there, if there's an open day, and either go for a drive, or do both go for a drive and then take a take a ride with one of the professionals. And it's it's unlike any experience you'll ever have automotive. But one of one of my other experiences riding with a racecar driver was actually here in Michigan, in 20. Also in 2010. Had it was GM did a small event with just a handful of people at the Milford Proving Grounds. And it was a few days before the Michigan NASCAR race in the summer. And Juan Pablo Montoya, who is driving for Ganassi racing and NASCAR at the time, they brought him to Milford and they had the the Corvette ZR one there, the supercharged Ls 901. And I got to ride for around the Milford road course, which is also known as the lats ring is the stone that they built in the early 2000s, you know, based on input from from Bob Lutz for doing vehicle development. And I had driven that that course, several times before in Corvettes and and other vehicles, and was relatively familiar with it. But getting in the passenger seat with one Montoya was an experience unlike anything else. I mean, he was I mean, he was thrashing that Corvette, you know, where I was, you know, I was driving quick, when I drove it, you know, I was not hanging in the back end out going around corners. I mean, he was just going all out in this thing, and just chattering along the entire time.

Dan Roth  48:24  
Right. I think and that's the thing that people mentioned about Sabina, as well as, like, she can just do it while just being you know, it's like a normal day that, you know,

Sam Abuelsamid  48:33  
totally relaxed. Yeah. That's just like being like being in any, any taxi in New York taxi, you know, without a cab driver,

Dan Roth  48:41  
those guys are pretty badass around the city that way,

Sam Abuelsamid  48:44  
but they're not going anywhere near these kinds of speeds. No. So it was, it was a pretty amazing experience,

Dan Roth  48:49  
you know, looking at sabines career, just the fact that she can do what not everybody can do with that, like, you've got it, you've got the the ability to drive and to be fast, and to win races, but you've also got the ability to present and to have that kind of personality and to she was on top gear and you know, just not everybody has that. That sort of racing ability, and then just the the personality to get out there and get people excited about auto racing and driving and that kind of stuff and tell the story in a really engaging way and have fun with it. There's a lot a lot more racing drivers who are, let's say, unfriendly. That's probably a better word than the one I'm thinking of. So yeah, it's just a it's a great loss. And I was shocked to find out that she was only 51. That's it sucks. Yeah, I was looking to see if there's anything set up for you know, like donations or any kind of foundation. I don't think there is but if one of our listeners knows you know certainly if you have made maybe one of our listeners has been around the ring with Sabine as a taxi driver who knows we got

Sam Abuelsamid  50:08  
let us know if you've taken a ring taxi drive and yeah, share your story.

Someone else has just jumped into the Zoom Room with us here, Rebecca. 

Rebecca Lindland  50:20  
Hello, greetings from the road.

Dan Roth  50:23  
Where Where are you? 

Rebecca Lindland  50:25  
So we are we're just outside of Lincoln, Nebraska.

Dan Roth  50:30  
Oh, so you're nowhere 

Rebecca Lindland  50:32  
we are

Sam Abuelsamid  50:34  
literally 

Rebecca Lindland  50:35  
our ultimate destination shall continue to remain a mystery as far as well as our purpose for driving because I am still under it. I am actually seriously under embargo. So that's why I can't say I guess

Dan Roth  50:49  
is a danger for you. Are we living on the edge right now? Because you're you're not really supposed to be talking to us. We are living so on the edge right now.

Sam Abuelsamid  50:57  
So, Rebecca, I noticed you using the plural we? It sounds like sounds like you're not alone there who's with you? 

Rebecca Lindland  51:05  
I am not alone. I have a very special guest.

In the car, Nicole Wakelin.

Sam Abuelsamid  51:15  
Hey, Nicole. 

Nicole Wakelin  51:17  
This time I am serving as her co driver. So I'm plying her with like large quantities of Starbucks. Making sure she doesn't go stir crazy. And you know, because it's so exciting driving through Nebraska. So yeah, I've got the course notes there and reading up. I'm just screaming slow down lap break.

Unknown Speaker  51:39  
And we are also accompanied by Lucy kitty. Did you I sorry, I've established that Lucy is deaf. And so if for better or for worse, I had her at the vet before we left and she was an otherwise excellent excellent health, which is amazing for a 16 year old kitty cat. I'm a big proponent of restraining your pets in the car. So her carrier is attached to the seat. I'm actually gonna try and get us on the road.

Dan Roth  52:15  
What are you driving,

Unknown Speaker  52:16  
so I am driving Sergio I am driving my Alfa Romeo Stelvio on that I got a few weeks ago that our listeners know about my traumatic purchasing experience. Which then in the end, they think I told you guys, he actually delivered the car to the house, which was great. It was really, really convenient. And I will say that, you know, for people that are concerned about COVID safety and such, you know, talk to your dealer. And and you'll be frank with them and and you can do everything outside. And you can do all your paperwork, everything I you know, from the safety of your home and sitting outside, and then they'll you know, if you want to they will go through the car with you. If you prefer not to be in the car with somebody, that's fine. They can even sit stand outside while you play with the different features and such. But you know, there are ways to deliver a car safely, even in COVID times.

Dan Roth  53:20  
So how is How is it? How do you like it? You got it all broken in now, right? Are you varying your speed so that I know

Unknown Speaker  53:26  
I've got what you know, we're varying our speed between almost legal and totally not.

Unknown Speaker  53:37  
Those are your options.

Unknown Speaker  53:41  
Here is 75 which is just delightful.

Dan Roth  53:43  
Which means that you actually just crank it up to 10 over you set it at 90 and just be fine.

Unknown Speaker  53:48  
Yep, 90 and forget it. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  53:51  
Um, it is it is interesting. You know, there's we just made a left hand turn and somebody actually waited for us to do that. Which is in there so like freakishly nice in the Midwest, like in New Hampshire where they would like cut you off and flip you the bird here. They're like, Oh, no, no, you're making a wrong turn into like, go ahead. I'll wait for you like they're so polite. It's It's unbelievable. It is.

Dan Roth  54:15  
Or do you like to get like, I like it up here when you do that in the then you get rolled cold on?

Unknown Speaker  54:21  
Yeah, exactly right. So it is so we're on I 80 and it is very flat and it is unbelievably windy today. And we can see the tractor trailer sort of swaying. We actually saw a relatively new RV that was being trailer that buy a pickup truck, right it was a pickup truck. I and they had flipped over. which fortunately we did see people walking around so everyone seemed to be okay. But now we're on the highway. We're going we're getting up to speed and we may have a lot of wind. If it's too much, we can fall over again. And you But we really just wanted to check in and touch base and introduce Nicole.

Sam Abuelsamid  55:06  
Yeah. So we got some we have some news to share, I think about Nicole, right?

Unknown Speaker  55:12  
I hope we do.

Unknown Speaker  55:15  
Rebecca and our grand question places we can announce, she will be leaving the show, as you all know, and I will be trying to step in and fill Rebecca's shoes, which I can also say I was gonna say, and I'm gonna say it, she filled her very stinky shoes because she took her shoes off in the car yesterday. Oh my god, I almost died.

Dan Roth  55:43  
Cuz it's this Stelvio? So they like they're just they're they're just a center vector. Even if you put them all the way in the back. That's, oh, well,

Unknown Speaker  55:51  
well, no, I historically do not have smelly feet. Just to clarify. So she's, by for some reason, this one pair of shoes. It's not okay. Even with me if it was not okay. It was. Okay.

Dan Roth  56:08  
We're thrilled to have you join the show. I think it's,

Unknown Speaker  56:11  
as you guys know, Nicole, was it with a special guest a few weeks ago. And and that was a little trial run for us all

Dan Roth  56:18  
seems like seems like for now. It's it's something that you enjoy doing. So.

Unknown Speaker  56:24  
Well. Nicole is up in your area, Dan. And so what will be cool is that, you know, you guys sometimes have the same cars. It'll be a little bit you know, there'll be some real really an opportunity to compare and contrast your experiences with the same vehicle oftentimes,

Dan Roth  56:44  
the exact same vehicle Oh, Which reminds me, did you ever get that escalate? I cheated you out of oh my

Unknown Speaker  56:48  
gosh, I literally had the escalate this past week and it arrived in my driveway and I was like, it's about time. Thanks. I have a lockdown. Finally I get the car was in the gray one. Oh, yeah.

Dan Roth  57:01  
The the grey one that I had with?

Unknown Speaker  57:03  
It was great. Yeah, it was like I don't know what it was like a sort of a CLE gray color. Yeah, it was really nice. I loved it. That was a fun few days. I felt very baller running around rural New Hampshire in this giant expensive Escalades, but you didn't like it, though? I did. I liked it very much. Actually. I really did like it.

Sam Abuelsamid  57:20  
I gotta ask you something. Nicole, did you try out the augmented reality display?

Unknown Speaker  57:26  
I did not. I did. I did not. So I can't speak to that. So I did not

Sam Abuelsamid  57:30  
know what is that in the instrument cluster, the small touchscreen to the left of the instrument cluster, you can pick between the normal gauge display and maps. And you can also get the AR display where what it does, it takes the view from the camera behind the windshield. That is normally for your for Collision Warning. We talked about this last week, I think early before. And it actually displays the camera view in the instrument cluster on that, that beautiful OLED display in there. And then when you're using navigation, it superimposes the navigation prompts and makes it look like they you know, silly things like your turn, oh, it displays it, you know, over floating over the intersection. And I was just curious if you'd had a chance to try it. And what your thoughts on that

Unknown Speaker  58:14  
were I didn't get a transcript. But you know what, I did think that the way they had this screen set up. So it's like, you know, the tiny little screen to your left that what is it like a seven inch and like 14 than a 10 inch, and how it curves that one that looks like one giant screen even though it's three, that looks really slick. I really loved how that looked. It looked very of the future. It was a really well designed screen. I love how they did it.

Dan Roth  58:37  
We're not huge fans of lots of screens in cars. So the way that Cadillac has done it has has been good enough that it's impressed us I think the few times we've talked about the Escalade. On the show, it's been positive. So

Unknown Speaker  58:53  
the way they've done it, it's somehow just like you look at some cars and it's just all you see a screen and it's like there's so big and there's so much around them in so many buttons that they overwhelm the dashboard. This is very clean, despite being a huge screen or huge series of screens. It doesn't you don't even realize it like the little piece to the left of the instrument cluster. It takes a second before you realize like that actually is still screen that's like or it's very well done. So it's not this intrusive overwhelming. Like I'm suddenly sitting, you know, in a video game console with three screen setup. It's really good. I like how they did it.

Sam Abuelsamid  59:28  
I think the fact that it's not ridiculously tall helps a lot there. So it's you know, it's it's wide, but not, you know, relatively narrow in height. So that I think that helps to mitigate some of that being overwhelmed by it.

Unknown Speaker  59:43  
Yeah, because like if you look at the cars that have the more tablet style screens right in the center of the dash, those are huge, and technically that's not as much screen space probably is what you have across the dash of the escalator. But it overwhelms the dashboard. This doesn't how they did it just doesn't feel it. looks great, but it doesn't feel overwhelming.

Dan Roth  1:00:03  
So when you get back from your undisclosed location, you'll hopefully still have a chance. Well, I guess it's gone now already, isn't it?

Unknown Speaker  1:00:11  
What the escalate, de escalate will be disappearing from my driveway, I believe tomorrow. But then I don't know. I think I don't quite know the schedule. I know that's surprising, but I don't quite know schedule.

Dan Roth  1:00:22  
It's not surprising.

Unknown Speaker  1:00:25  
I believe that next Friday, which is the venture, I'll have an NSX for a long weekend.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:00:35  
Oh, sweet.

Unknown Speaker  1:00:36  
how she's, she's debuting her first garage entry with the NFL. Yeah. It'll be the NSX too. So whatever kind of late whatever car you know, that's what I'll be talking about.

Dan Roth  1:00:48  
This is why you become an act Voyager because

Unknown Speaker  1:00:54  
it's serious. Center appearance. Nicole has been christened as the newest North American Car and Truck of the Year. Sure. Yeah. It's very exciting news. It is exciting. I'm pretty excited about it. So yeah, that was that made me very happy. I felt quite honored that they said, Hey, come join us are listening. You're getting an upgrade from Rebecca.

Dan Roth  1:01:19  
It's a cross grade. It's a cross. But no, I think we're thrilled to have you on the show. And we're looking forward to seeing all the stuff that you get as an actor that we never going to touch as just plebeian car reviewers, so that'll be

Unknown Speaker  1:01:36  
out. You never know what I'm gonna get watch. I'm gonna get the most like, boring like dishwater don't car. That's all I'm gonna have for a month.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:01:45  
Thank you so much for for checking in from the road. Nicole, we are really thrilled to have you joining us. And we are going to miss you, Rebecca. Yeah, I think your your audio is starting to break up just a little bit. So you know, now is probably a good time to let you guys go. And continue the adventure.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:05  
All right. Thanks, everyone. Bye, guys.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:07  
If I

Sam Abuelsamid  1:02:11  
record this today, it's the 21st of March an embargo is going to be lifting so by the time you hear this, the news of this year's Jeep Easter Safari concepts every year, they have the Jeep Easter Safari out in Moab, Utah, and it's a gathering of Jeep aficionados. And for the last, I don't know how many years now jeeps been putting together a little fleet of special concepts every year to highlight some of the Mopar accessories that they have for the various Jeep models. And they also usually put together a couple of special vehicles, you know, that are non production, one of which is often a total concept. And then the other one is a resto mod. So this year for the for the resto mod Jeep built up a, what they call the Jeep stir beach, it's a 1968 jeepster Commando. But underneath that body is the chassis of a brand new jL Wrangler. So it's got modern engine of the same suspension that you can get on a Wrangler Rubicon out of the dealer today, but with that classic jeepster commando styling on it,

Dan Roth  1:03:20  
the Jeep sear is one of those sort of Phantom jeeps that not everybody remembers. It's a little bit different. You know, it's I think it's underneath it all is there's the normal Jeep frame, but it's a larger body then like the CJ was it was it was more of a I'm trying to describe it what how would you describe a jeepster

Sam Abuelsamid  1:03:43  
If anything, it's you know, it's closer I think in size to a modern Wrangler than the the CJs of that era, you know, the 1960s and 1970s because those those things were really small. It is a bit bigger. It's it's pretty I think I'd say pretty close in size to a current two door Wrangler but it was also the the first Jeep that was ever available with a V eight engine although I think the i'm not mistaken I think the beach actually has the pentastar v six in it. Yeah, and it's got the basically the stock Wrangler Rubicon chassis underneath it. And but one of the things that's really cool about this as well is the paint on this thing. They came up with this special color that was on a briefing call with the Jeep guys earlier this week. And the the color of this thing is is gold mica color. That is I guess, you know, it's not something that they're going to be reproducing for production for any production vehicles because it's, it's way too difficult to do and way too expensive, but it's it looks awesome on this particular Jeep.

Dan Roth  1:04:55  
Again, I'm not normally a fan of gold, but I agree it does. Looks really good.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:04:59  
What I call it it's a it's a brightly, they call it a brightly colored two tone paint scheme of hazy IPA and zinc oxide hazy

Dan Roth  1:05:06  
IPA. Okay. I mean, sure. I wouldn't I wouldn't describe that as a hazy IPA. Okay, that's fine. I'd need to see it in the sun. I have to send it here. So I can I can check it out. It's it's funny that they show the Jeep sir from the, the angle that they show it in the pictures too, because it really does have that kind of Wrangler look to it. But when you see a Jeep straight out in the wild, it looks weird. And

Sam Abuelsamid  1:05:32  
they're a little unusual looking, because the back end is longer. Yeah, than a classic Jeep. And, you know, instead of the vertical rear end, it's got a forward sloping rear end. So it's it's an interesting looking vehicle. And they didn't build them for that long. But it's it's pretty cool.

Dan Roth  1:05:47  
When were they originally built? They were I never Kaiser, right. Yeah. So like 60s, late 60s through 70s, like mid 70s 80s. Oh, yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:05:56  
Oh, sorry. I was mistaken. This one actually has the the two liter turbo four cylinder not the pentastar v six. And they they did do some different calibrations on this one. So they bumped the power and torque by about 25% to 340 horsepower, and 369 pounds feet of torque.

Dan Roth  1:06:14  
Well, that should be enough.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:06:16  
Yeah, it'll do.

Dan Roth  1:06:18  
The other Jeep concept that they released for the Easter Safari is the Magneto. That's a battery electric Wrangler.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:06:26  
It is Yeah. So right now Jeep is just launching the the Wrangler for buy E which is a plug in hybrid that you can go out and buy. But the the Magneto is basically a prototype for a future electric and full battery electric Jeep, it's based on the two door Wrangler, design wise of bodies, pretty much stock Wrangler doesn't look dramatically different. It's got a pretty cool white, white and blue paint job on it. And they took four of the battery packs from the four by eight from the plug in hybrid. So that's, I think about a 13 kilowatt hour battery pack. And they've installed those one is in the back, or ones in the back to or underneath the body. And then one is in the front under the hood. And they haven't given a whole lot of details on the specs of this of this thing. But it's pretty clear, it is actually equipped with a six speed manual transmission.

Dan Roth  1:07:25  
Yeah, that was the weird part. And I think Jalopnik actually picked up on it too, because there had been a release of the like a cutaway image that showed the power train layout. And they were like, wait a minute, why is there transmission in there?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:07:42  
Yeah, well, the thing, the thing that I talked about with this is you basically only use the clutch to shift gears. And then when you're out on the trail, because an electric motor makes its peak torque from zero RPM, you can pick whatever gear you want. And then you don't have to touch the clutch again, you just crawl through, you know, at zero speed. And one of the one of the specs that they mentioned, was that you can you can crawl so slowly with this thing. You can go about five feet in one minute, which is crazy. And that's that's how slow this thing I have this by modulating the accelerator pedal.

Dan Roth  1:08:19  
Yeah, we sometimes it's hard to get out of bed. actual production reality is like, do you think that they would build because it seems like it's easy enough to to just retrofit an electric motor to the existing rest of the powertrain. But that's not the most cost effective way to do it, I'm questioning whether they would actually build it that way, if they were to build it as a retrofit,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:08:42  
or something. Most most likely, when a production Wrangler battery electric does arrive, it will be without a transmission or just with a single speed reduction gearbox. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they do if they did use a two speed transfer case. You know, because for Wrangler, you want that, that those lows, those, you know, really low crawl ratios. And that, you know, that's something you need when you're crawling through, you know, over boulders and through through trails. So they would probably, you know, maybe keep a two speed transfer case with a four wheel drive low range, but probably without the the transmission in there. Actually just looking through the through the press release, which was only just released. The for battery packs total up to 70 kilowatt hours and it's running on an 800 volt electrical system. And one of the things that Jeep is doing right now is they are actually installing solar powered Evie chargers at a variety of trails, popular trails, where Jeep, jeep owners often go, including the Rubicon trail in California, as well as out in Moab to enable owners of the four by e to go there, you know, charge up before they before they head out on the trail and then they'll have About 20 odd miles of electric driving capability so they can be out on the trail with zero emissions and, you know, be really quiet, which is, I think a really cool thing to do. And actually rivian also just announced that they are building out an Eevee charging network, their rivian Adventure network, I think to calling it and putting DC fast chargers, at locations, you know, where people are going to, you know, expect it to go off roading with rivian trucks. And there'll be building out that network over the next two years. So I think we're gonna see a lot more of this, you know, people trying to be, you know, have a little bit lighter footprint on the environment when they're doing their outdoor adventuring,

Dan Roth  1:10:41  
right? Don't drive through water, not because they're electric. But because you turn up the habitat. Stop doing that stop forwarding stricking it's, I don't know, I do one of these days intend to spend more time off road with a proper off road vehicle doing proper off roading, which is here and heavily more heavily regulated, Massachusetts, not exactly illegal thing you can do. You can't just go off on the trails

Sam Abuelsamid  1:11:11  
here in Northern Michigan, you can do that.

Dan Roth  1:11:13  
Yeah, you can't can't do that. And that's just like the thing that everybody says, Is it because we've talked about this among fellow car riders, Mike, hey, where do you take your four by fours to take really trim out and it's usually along power lines. And the trick is always like don't get caught. So I'm a little hesitant to go into somebody else's right of way with a vehicle that also belongs to somebody else and then potentially get stuck in need of rescue. So

Sam Abuelsamid  1:11:43  
yeah, that could be a problem.

Dan Roth  1:11:44  
Yeah, that's my story. So but solar chargers at trails, that's great if there's enough battery storage capacity to well, and

Sam Abuelsamid  1:11:53  
that's one of the things they'll be doing is putting in battery storage, stationary battery storage there to enable higher power charging, because you're not, you're not going to be able to get high power charging just off the solar panels,

Dan Roth  1:12:04  
of course with a standby diesel generator, just in case.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:12:08  
I don't know what reviens plan is. Jeep is not going to be doing that I don't I just

Dan Roth  1:12:14  
solar, just solar at all, with no sort of grid tied backup or anything like that, that?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:12:20  
I think it depends on on where they are. Yeah, I mean, a lot of these places there, there isn't power to hook up.

Dan Roth  1:12:27  
That's true. And we don't need to create more of a disaster bringing power into those places. It's interesting, I that actually, is something I'm probably equally interested in as the cars, it's just what are you going to do with that that charging infrastructure that you set up with, with solar alone, because it's great. But when you're trying to charge a lot of cars real quick at 800 volts like that, that's a lot of capacity. So

Sam Abuelsamid  1:12:52  
well, and this is, this is the thing we're gonna see everywhere, increasingly, with chargers, as we move, try and move more and more of the charging infrastructure to renewable sources. And also, as we're getting higher power charging, you know, the challenge with doing high power dc, dc fast charging, is that that's a big strain on the grid, there's actually more than enough generating capacity in the US to support going completely electric, the problem is the distribution and getting it at the times when you want it and getting enough of it, you know, and one quick shot, you know, if you're gonna, if you're doing 350, or even higher, or 50 kilowatt or even higher power charging, like as we get into electrifying trucks, they're working on megawatt charging systems, for trucks, that requires a lot of power coming in. Most places don't necessarily have that ability to support that, you know, on a consistent basis. So we are going to see all of these chargers increasingly being equipped with batteries that can be charged at a lower rate. So you don't, you don't have to do as much capacity upgrade on the grid feeding that chargers charging station, you can charge it at a lower rate and then pull it out quickly when you need it to charge the vehicle.

Dan Roth  1:14:11  
Yeah, cuz if there's one thing that public utilities or utility companies, not necessarily public, love to do. It's under maintain their infrastructure. So when you when you start to use it to charge cars, that's great. That's nice strain on stuff that's like, hasn't been touched in 60 years and then starts fires.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:14:30  
Yeah, especially in California. Yeah. Yeah, one more story related to EBS. Last Monday, Volkswagen had their first power day, which is their equivalent of Tesla's battery day that they had last fall. And they made some interesting announcements. And this is a lot of it is consistent both with what Tesla has announced, but also what some other automakers are doing. And when we started getting into modern TVs a decade ago Aside from Tesla, even Tesla at the time, you know, automakers want pursuing the idea of building their own battery manufacturing capacity. This is something that they were largely doing in conjunction with suppliers. Because first of all, you know, at the beginning, you know, volumes weren't enough to justify building their own batteries, you know, battery production. They also didn't know enough about the technology at the time. They mostly worked with companies like LG Chem and Panasonic, and Samsung and CTL and SK innovation, had them build the cells for them. But now as we're getting into this decade, the volume of Eevee is being sold every year is growing. automakers increasingly are recognizing that both motors and batteries need to be one of their core competencies, just like internal combustion and transmissions have been in the past. And as they get away from building engines and designing new engines and transmissions. They're shifting to batteries and motors. They are increasingly bringing the battery production in house. GM last year announced their altium battery system, their joint venture with LG Chem to produce lithium ion cells. First plants going up in Ohio right now they're planning for a second plant probably in Tennessee. Ford has recently talked about, you know, starting to do their own in house cell production instead of relying on suppliers. And for Volkswagen, they have their power day announced that they were going to start producing their own cells as well. They currently buy cells from all those major suppliers, some ca TL Samsung, sk innovation and LG Chem, they will be starting to produce their own cells. They've got a plant going up in northern Sweden and skelleftea, Sweden, which is going to be the first but over the course of by 2030. They plan to build six cell production facilities just in Europe, with a total of 240 gigawatt hours a year of cell capacity. And that is a lot. Certainly a lot compared to what we have right now in the US.

Dan Roth  1:17:13  
But it's what you were telling me or before we started the show that's less than a quarter of what's actually needed for just us like sales volume.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:17:22  
Yeah, so for the US, you know, if we get back to 17 million vehicles a year annual sales. Right now we have about 40 gigawatt hours of cell production capacity. Most of that about 35 is with Tesla and Panasonic, and Nevada. And most of the rest is LG Chem at a plant here in Michigan. But if we want to build 17 million TVs a year in the US, we're going to need somewhere between one and one and a half terawatt hours. So that's about 40 times the capacity we have now

Dan Roth  1:17:51  
I was off by like an exponential factor. Look at that mean, the math don't get along.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:17:55  
So Volkswagen is doing the same in Europe, you know, they're gonna be at 240 that'll cover a lot of their own internal production needs for Europe. But you know, then there's also China and North America and other parts of the world. So the big thing this decade is going to be building battery cell manufacturing facilities, and also recycling. Because if you're going to build that many batteries, you're going to need a hell of a lot more raw materials. And we have available right now in terms of capacity for that. One of the other big things they talked about was recycling. The raw materials right now represent the bulk more than two thirds of the cost of a cell. And that's you know, things like the lithium nickel manganese cobalt, VW already has a pilot plant up and running in Germany that's doing recycling. And there's a cool video that I'll include a link to, in the, in the show notes, that shows they've got this giant Shredder. And they actually take complete battery modules, drop them in the shredder, and it shreds them into these little pieces. And then there's a whole process that goes through to extract all the raw materials to separate all the raw materials again, and they think they can get to 95% recovery of the raw materials that they can then put back into production of new cells

Dan Roth  1:19:15  
that sounds energy intensive. And that's sort of my that's where my skepticism sets in a little bit. Just that like the idea of recycling You know, we've been sold the idea of plastics recycling, which is mostly nonsense, and was from the get go and that's sort of now coming more to light is like yeah, you can kind of recycle plastic but it costs so much on the energy input that it's it's actually not not efficient and not really viable. I wonder if that's the same thing they're going to run into it seems like battery materials and the electrolytes and all that are so much more valuable. That it's it's not a ruse, they actually need to recycle this stuff, but I don't know maybe I'm

Sam Abuelsamid  1:19:59  
yeah And that is absolutely a challenge that needs to be overcome they, they think they can do it, it's, you know, given the cost of these materials, it is you know, they are going to have to recycle somehow they, they've developed processes that they think can make it economically viable. And the The other aspect of this as well, or other other parts of this is they've got this during a presentation, they talked about Circular Economy of, you know, from the initial product, going through the whole life cycle and then recirculating as much of that back into that process, continuing that process going forward. So, you know, from self production, you know, they have first life use in the vehicles when the capacity drops to a point where it's no longer useful in a vehicle, reusing that for second life and we talked for about you know, putting batteries, stationary batteries at charging stations, this is one of the big applications that's going to be needed for those Second Life batteries. Once you take those modules out of a car, you know, you can that can still be very useful sitting next to a charger or for other types of second stationary storage applications. Finally, when it's done, they're then going through that recycling and starting the whole process again. And then the other thing that VW committed to doing is installing 18,000 new DC fast chargers in Europe over the next several years. So you know, they are really diving all in into the whole electric strategy over the next the next next decade,

Dan Roth  1:21:37  
Id four has been making the rounds as well people are starting to see them and get up and close with them that's changing opinions as well just seeing the the design and the quality and the the way those have been put together. I've seen a lot of positive reports on on Volkswagens Evie efforts after they they nearly killed us all with diesel which is not not true. But we really need that charging infrastructure here. Everybody has pretty viable Evie has a pretty good Evie. Now charging on the other hand is you know, it's not as easy as going to a gas station like Rebecca said, you know, you still need to, to plan it out and to take a more active role in that which is fine at this stage of Evie adoption, because you're a believer when you buy an Eevee right now. So you're willing to do that work. But getting it to be as convenient or as easy as a gas station is we're not there yet. And so hopefully they kind of Volkswagen has electrify America, hopefully they continue to add charging infrastructure here. That's not like some level two charger tucked around the corner of some building, you can't find

Sam Abuelsamid  1:22:49  
that that is something that that we will see a lot more expansion of is the the charging infrastructure. And it is a problem right now. You know, it's a classic example of the William Gibson line, you know, the future is already here is just not evenly distributed. Yeah, that's true, that's good. Depending on where you go, charging can either be no problem at all, or it can be a huge problem. And if we want EBS to be ubiquitous, we have to make it not a problem at all. You know, especially for people in cities. And this is one of the things that VW talked about, is making sure that that you can support Evie adoption by people living in urban areas where a lot of people don't live in single family homes with a garage, right, you know, that they are going to have to rely on public charging, and you know, things like, you know, reviens announcement of putting in 10,000 chargers, you know, will help although one thing, I'm going to be writing a blog post about this from a company blog. You know, one of the unfortunate things about the rivian announcement is that their DC fast chargers are going to be exclusively for rivian owners, which I think is a terrible idea.

Dan Roth  1:23:57  
I thought that they were going to be compatible with other vehicle as well. I

Sam Abuelsamid  1:24:01  
know they are compatible, they're using CCS connectors, but they just aren't gonna allow other owners of other vehicles to charge at their DC fast chargers, which I think is stupid, I think, you know, if they want to give free charging or discounted charging to their owners, fine. But I think you know, if they if they really want to help the adoption of TVs overall, then yeah, I think that they need to make their I think everybody needs to make their charging networks open to every everybody.

Dan Roth  1:24:32  
these are these are startup companies. Right, and they're building charging infrastructure. Why would you not turn that into a revenue stream?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:24:41  
I know. Like Exactly. They

Dan Roth  1:24:43  
don't have any revenue negative. They don't have any they're not making money. They're financed by companies that are like Amazon. Yeah, they're just they're just losing money in a calculated bet that they will eventually make money. Don't you want to try to eventually make money faster. Okay. Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:25:03  
yeah, I can't argue with that.

Dan Roth  1:25:05  
I mean, you know, the the urban charging is an issue for renters and just for how cars are used and stored in cities, that's something that's got to get worked out. And that's really the most common point of pain and contention that comes up when we talk about this stuff. And it's always like, Well, yeah, how am I gonna? How am I gonna charge a car in the city, I live in an apartment and my car isn't near me, it's a mile away, or whatever. And we need to make sure that we're moving like parallel paths, you can't over perfect before you launch, the cars are viable, the charging is viable, it doesn't mean that it's perfect. But it means you should get it out there so that people can experience it, and you can fine tune it, you know, we, I've been a part of projects that you wind up just going around in circles for like years, I swear to God, I rewrote the same website three or four times over the course of five years, and it never launched, because it was just, you're trying to just do too much and make it too perfect before it launches, and it's never going to be perfect. So go out there with like the the idea of being humble, and you know, here's how we thought it should be. Find the ways it needs to change and evolve, while people start to use it. Like, you're just gonna get that much further down the road. A, you know it, because right now, if these are great for people in the suburbs, who do the normal, like, one person in a car commute to a city kind of thing. But that that's a really crappy use for any car, no matter how its propelled, versus, you know, ways to make mobility possible. So I like the greater focus, if you zoom out a little bit on mobility, and I really want them to solve that urban charging problem, and I haven't seen anything that's exciting yet. Yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:26:57  
I mean, they're doing some interesting things in Europe, BMW has done some stuff with some pilots with using light poles, street side light poles, yeah, and installing charges in there, within the poles, because they already have power, you know, making that available to people, you know, for curbside parking, things like that, you know, or, you know, where we have parking meters today, you know, install chargers, at those at those positions, but a lot more needs to be done. And, you know, part of it is, you know, part of it little help is, you know, making, making faster charging more accessible and available or affordable. But there's, there's still a lot that needs to happen to really make the switch to EBS viable,

Dan Roth  1:27:46  
yeah, when you're the common complaint to is gonna be who's gonna pay for it, and we can, we can pay for it, we already subsidize our highways. And the idea that any other competing system has to operate at a at a profit or breakeven is what has hamstrung transit across the nation as well. One of the things, there's different reasons, but this is an investment we can we can we can make,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:28:16  
and you know, it doesn't all have to be paid for by tax dollars, you know, plenty of private companies that are interested in getting this business, but what, you know, what we need to do is find ways I think, to make it easier, you know, to look at the the permitting processes and things like that make it easier for infrastructure to be installed, and make it accessible to people.

Dan Roth  1:28:40  
Yeah. So let's go. Let's do it. We'll, we'll agitate for it, as I'm good at agitation. All right. Do we have any questions? Are we just done with the show at this point?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:28:54  
Why don't we wrap it up for this week and get back to questions next week. Okay.

Dan Roth  1:28:57  
And maybe Nicole will be with us next week. Maybe? I don't know. She's surprised.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:29:01  
I'm not sure when she's getting back. But we'll see either July to be with us next week or the week after.

Dan Roth  1:29:06  
All right. And on that note, thanks for listening, everyone, and we will catch you next time. Bye.

Thanks for listening to wheel bearings. Hey, we love to listen to our listeners to drop us an email to feedback at wheel bearings dot media with your thoughts. Questions are conversation starters. That's feedback at wheel bearings dot media. You can also find us on Twitter at wheel bearings cast. Don't use any vowels except for the A in cast. So that's WHLBRN je s NGS cast. Thanks again. We hope to hear from you soon.

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