Sam Abuelsamid 0:01 Coming up on episode 218 wheel bearings, the Indy autonomous challenge, Tesla, adopting iron batteries, first drives of the rivian r1 T, the Jeep wagoneer, Carnival, and Subaru Forester wilderness All that and more coming up next. Did you know you can support wheel bearings directly head to patreon.com slash wheel bearings media and you can become a patron today. Your contributions will help fund the platforms and tools we use to bring the podcast to you. And exclusives improvements are already on the way thanks to your generosity. So if you want to be part of an automotive podcast like no other head to patreon.com slash wheel bearings media This is Episode 218 wheel bearings I'm Sam Abuelsamid from Guidehouse insights Nicole Wakelin 0:55 and I am Nicole wakelin from Autobytel Roberto Baldwin 0:59 and I am Roberto Baldwin from lifewire Sam Abuelsamid 1:03 excellent that's a new one Roberto Baldwin 1:07 yeah I do I do a week yeah I do a weekly EV column for them so every week usually on Friday sometimes on Monday because sometimes things happen I write a column for them so it's it's I talked about how I want there to be those Evie charging stations like they have in Europe at the parking spaces along the first cell tower and you plug it in and plug it in yeah and you bring your own cable I talked about how we We leased our vehicles that have bought or released our Evie instead of bought an Eevee and how you know because battery technology will advance and you know battery degradation which probably won't be that big of an issue since we're pretty good you know we only charge up to 80% and you know we we we know we I think we've DC fast charge it like once no twice maybe three times I think the third time I live when issues I got to hell with it and let so yeah I don't think we're gonna have a lot of battery degradation but you know we still did just in case we you know some sort of lifestyle change within the next three years that involves us driving further than you know the 200 miles The car has Sam Abuelsamid 2:16 Yeah, I mean that for most people that's pretty rare to actually drive much farther than that but yeah wants to go first Today Roberto Baldwin 2:27 I'll go first I'll go first just because you both have already driven this car we have yeah so I'm like I'm the I'm the last the last person to get into the kena kena I haven't driven that key the hkiac kena yeah they hkiac karneval you have to see it like that like you know Carnival Nicole Wakelin 2:54 and Carnival like you when Roberto Baldwin 2:56 you look at it even when you look at it it's a carnival because I think we've all talked about how nice it is you know kids kid Hyundai have really sort of stepped up their interior and their exterior design game and you know they their cars are just they're really nice. They're you know for the money. This thing starts at what 32 did it 30 to 100 before you know I don't know what the destination VM shirts Hold on. I can you know I can just look it up. Okay, so yeah, so let's say 30 let's just say 30 $300 $33,000 for a minivan that looks like an SUV. It does it looks like an SUV it looks nice you get inside it's very any course they gave me the prestige version, which it's you know, they're charging $47,000 for this thing. So you know, Nicole Wakelin 3:49 the prestige has the captain's chairs right? Roberto Baldwin 3:51 Yeah, the captain's chairs and it has like the the rear seats. The second row displays so you can watch things in case you haven't bought an iPad in the last 10 years. So you can get rid of a lot of that you know a lot of that sort of like second row like here's a here's a screen, right? But I can just use this screen and then I can watch movies and I can play my games. But no, it's really nice. It drives really well. It looks like an SUV which I think that's the that's sort of the biggest black eye for minivans is that they look like minivans. And people for some reason don't like minivans. Nicole Wakelin 4:28 Are you telling me you think minivans are attractive? Generally speaking Do you like how minivans look I mean wow look at that kick butt minivan. Well, Roberto Baldwin 4:35 I liked the Odyssey I think they look like little spaceships if you really think about it like most SUVs look like boxes in Nicole Wakelin 4:47 an SUV. I mean better than SUVs are better than minivans. I don't always look see I see bloated wail what I look at the average man. Just so your Sam Abuelsamid 4:58 Ford Windstar, I mean that's was a bloated Windstar but many of them still look like a bloated whale when we you know I back in the day I actually worked on the ABS for the winstar and the first prototypes of that came out and we found out that they were going to call it the winstar we all start referring to it as the wind bag because of the Roberto Baldwin 5:22 way it looks like it looks bloated and I mean most SUVs look I mean it's that they all look sort of the same at least within the minivan world there there's a little bit of difference when it comes to design I I can't tell how many times I've had an SUV and I got out to the parking lot I'm like oh we should have these gray or white vehicles as mine so you know they they mostly stick I mean the karneval like start starts looking like start kind of starts like edging into that looking like every other vehicle on the road which apparently people like. So everyone wants the SUV look. They don't want the minivan look which fine but you get all the accoutrements of a minivan, you get the automatic opening doors when just push the button, you get, you know, sort of, it's just like minivans, you just you can just do more of the things that people want to do with an SUV in a minivan except for the off roading thing which no one does. If you're going to do off roading get a Wrangler get a get a bronco get a you know get a Land Rover that's the you know or defender. Those are the like yeah, I'm going off roading and those even those mostly don't go off road but if everything else you want to do in life with your vehicle and you think you need a big vehicle it will be taken care of by a minivan and you have so much more more room oh yeah I'm sure Sam Abuelsamid 6:56 there's the carnival is not a minivan it's an MPV let's Nicole Wakelin 7:03 see purpose vehicle is Roberto Baldwin 7:04 that what Yeah, because they have the that was it. The Mazda five was their MPV Sam Abuelsamid 7:10 Yeah, well actually the Mazda five that was they actually had a Mazda MPV, which was the Roberto Baldwin 7:16 MTV? Yeah, my friends have an MPV and they gave it to their son and it look it's just a tiny minivan. It's great. And it doesn't look like a minivan. It's just like it's like a three quarter size minivan. And it's like has a sliding doors and I I'm always telling my wife friends like oh, I'm about to have a kid I'm like, you should get a minivan Oh, I don't know, like, here's the scenario, always show them to your kid in one hand, you have your kids bag and the other and now you have to unlock now you have to open the car door and get your kid into the seat. You can either just have your keys in your hand and just like hold down a button and then the door opens and you can just unload everything into the car. Or you can stop in front of your car, put the thing down, open the door. Hope you're not parked too close to the car next to you slide around, put your kid down, cinch them all up. You're hitting the car next. What you do with children you cinch them down right? Just strap Nicole Wakelin 8:12 them down as a couple of like you know chords Yeah, Sam Abuelsamid 8:17 you just have you know you have Velcro onesies for your kids and just put velcro Nicole Wakelin 8:23 strap it right just stick Roberto Baldwin 8:26 slap him into the car throw the thing into the car you have more room for more random children or friends you always have that big giant like bathtub essentially in the back you can throw things in and you can cover it up in case you're concerned and it looks like it's floor level if you get like a the you know you can get store and go if you get the Chrysler Pacifica yeah so the one I haven't stolen go Nicole Wakelin 8:51 see because it's storing go you trademark that's old. I'm sure Roberto Baldwin 8:57 we can have storing go anyway, my my I picked up a friend of mine, we were using musician and we were going to band practice. And he's like, what is this? Like? Oh, it's the carnival it's a meet because he opened like I pulled up and then the doors slid open. He's like what? Because he's back to the minivan. He saw an SUV turned into a minivan like a transformer. And he's like oh this would be a great band vehicle. Sam Abuelsamid 9:29 You can't afford the carnival for a band vehicle. The next best choice is actually probably the Ford Flex getting used Ford Flex cuz you know I really like the minus the sliding doors Roberto Baldwin 9:44 Yeah, yeah that's sort of like weird little I like the Ford Flex again because you could just put so many things in so much room for activities. If you're going to get something that you say well I need all this room will then get something that properly it will give you all the room. Yeah, don't get like yeah But But you don't have much of a choice at this point if you want a car What do you want a car? Yeah, we don't make those anymore. here's, here's an SUV, my brother in law, his Nicole Wakelin 10:09 cars he's having troubles with his car because it's got too many miles and it just he's not nice enough to it. And he's dumping all this cash into it. I'm like, What? I'm just gonna do cars because I can't even find a new car now the new cars I want are actually out there right now. Like I have to buy the base model. Or it's like here's the one with $40,000 of options. He's like, I don't want either of those. I want the ones in the middle. Roberto Baldwin 10:30 Yeah, cuz Yeah, that sucks. Yeah, buying a car now it's just the worst he just spent Nicole Wakelin 10:35 almost $3,000 to fix up his 2011 charger with 145,000 miles. I cringed a lot. Really? Roberto Baldwin 10:49 That's that's that's another lease car you should charge to get that puppy on lease. Sam Abuelsamid 10:55 When I was walking my dog this morning. I ran into my next door neighbor. She was out walking her dog and she's got skinny she's got I think it's like a 2005 or four Chrysler PT Cruiser and she was it's there's actually Roberto Baldwin 11:14 surprised sorry I'm sorry I tried not to take at that makes no Sam Abuelsamid 11:19 sense. She mostly uses it to take her dogs to the dog park which is like three miles away you know and or to go grocery shopping. You know, she doesn't really go anywhere she's a she's a lawyer that works from home from her home office and doesn't really go many places. And she's you know, she's saying that you know, the big thing is it's let's take all the dogs around and she's she said it's getting to the point where it's got some things that she's gonna have to spend some money on it you'd rather not. And I can certainly sympathize with that with a an old PT Cruiser and you know, she's looking for another used car and looking for suggestions and you know, I I don't know why I didn't think of it right at the time. But when I talked to her later, I'll tell her you know what, she should get us an old Nissan LEAF, US Nissan LEAF, you know, because you can't there's no right there's not a whole lot of selection of new or used cars out there right now. But you know, for that kind of application. That's that's probably your best choice. But Roberto Baldwin 12:21 yeah, so she says she essentially has the Jaguar she has the next type in my life, which is actually hard. It's not she Sam Abuelsamid 12:27 used to have an exercise. Nicole Wakelin 12:31 Oh my God. God bless you. Sam Abuelsamid 12:35 She had told me this story before and she was telling me again this morning, she had back in the early 2000s. She her favorite car that she ever had was the x type. She bought it a year old from a guy who is a surgeon and his he bought it for his partner and he didn't like the color and after a year of complaining about the color and finally said fine, we're going to get rid of this thing. And he sold it to her for a song and she loved that car and drove it for several years whenever it was still relatively new at that point, not like like yours, but you know she she loved that car. She also told me once she actually back in the late 80s she owned an Oracle Cottrell a first generation Audi Quattro. So you know she's had some interesting cars over the years Roberto Baldwin 13:26 I like your neighbor I don't like the PT Cruiser because I like people who just buy like just have weird things. I remember the PT Cruiser came out and me and my friend My friend shoots video and he had to go do a video shoot in LA we live in San Francisco time he's like I'm not feeling well. Would you go with me in case we get there and I can't shoot you can shoot and I can just sort of like supervise from you know the toilet so like yeah, so he's like oh I got it's a PT Cruiser we're gonna get we got we got a rental car because his wife needed his car. I'm like oh this is awesome we're gonna buy the PT Cruiser is gonna be so great 30 minutes into that car one day like drive it into a ditch and light it on fire it's just it's uncomfortable he can't see at the backseat it could you don't it doesn't know what it wants to be Is it a car is Nicole Wakelin 14:12 driven one so all I know is from from everybody saying that it was the most miserable experience of their lives. Yeah, it's Roberto Baldwin 14:18 it's but but if you need a car to like that it's inexpensive and it's on its last leg and you just need to take the dog to the park. I am Yeah, three miles. Okay, Sam Abuelsamid 14:30 she's got two big dogs. They fit perfectly in the backseat. Roberto Baldwin 14:33 Right? Yeah, Nicole Wakelin 14:35 there you go. Roberto Baldwin 14:36 Get the PTS like you're living in the 40s I don't know what they were doing Nicole Wakelin 14:40 before was that Hillary's gonna make all the old cars Prowler Yeah, we're gonna do all this. Oh, it's cool. make them look cool. But can you actually make them drive? Cool. Can we have some actual performance? Sam Abuelsamid 14:53 Maybe the Prowler I just saw earlier this week somebody posted pictures of A Prowler that somebody had installed a Hellcat crate engine into so they finally made it what it should have been all oh Roberto Baldwin 15:09 wow there's a there's a Prowler around my somewhere around here I've seen it like two or three times. It's in good shape I'm like well more power to you for buying that I mean it looks it's different no one else has it. throw throw, you know, I think what's the answer everything LS swap? Sam Abuelsamid 15:25 yeah pretty much Roberto Baldwin 15:29 what's your answer the LS swap I guess Sam Abuelsamid 15:34 all right. Is that it for the carnival the carnival I should say. Roberto Baldwin 15:39 Yeah. Talk to us about the carnival 30 seconds Nicole Wakelin 15:44 Yeah, for about 30 seconds and kind of went on a tangent but yeah, Sam Abuelsamid 15:47 there's I just dropped the I'll put this in the show notes. But I just dropped the Hellcat powered Prowler into the into the slot. Nicole Wakelin 15:54 Oh, I want to see it now. Roberto Baldwin 15:57 Okay, yeah. See, that's, that's legit. Sam Abuelsamid 16:00 Yeah. Because, you know, why not? Absolutely. Roberto Baldwin 16:05 Why not? All right. Wouldn't you do that? Sam Abuelsamid 16:09 The call What did you drive? Nicole Wakelin 16:11 Yes. I went out to Oregon to drive the 2022 Subaru Forester wilderness. They also gave me about a six to drive this week, but they gave me one of those to drive two months ago so I'm not going to talk about it again because it hasn't changed in two months. So instead, forester and it's being discontinued so i thought you know of the two vehicles a Subaru perhaps might be more relevant. So. So this is the new the wilderness, it's a trim, they haven't on the outback already. And now they're putting it on the wilderness and although you know supers already got that sort of like, yeah, we're kind of the outdoors II we can go off road a little bit, but we're not really like crazy off road. This is taking it to like Well, we're a little crazier. Now Now we can do a little bit more. So it's just a trim level within the lineup. We drove it around, we took it off road and we genuinely took it off road like we really actually did drive it which was kind of nice. Sometimes they say off road and they give you a road you're like I could take a Camry on this. So this really doesn't count but this one they did a pretty good job. It's it's not like if you want to go rock crawling that you can do that in this you can't, it's more if you want to have a little extra clearance so that you can handle things I think it's 9.2 inches of ground clearance on this one and I want to say seven point something 7.6 on the standard forester lineup so you get about a couple inches of extra ground clearance. And they do it there's like longer coil springs and the shock absorbers and the suspension suspension is different to give that extra height and they've specially tuned it to be a little bit more off Rudy but to still be pretty smooth on the highway. It gets a skid plate up front so that you can you know smack into a few things and it will survive. And the there's larger cladding on the wheel arches so you're less likely it's like you're less likely to smash the metal if you have like a tree or something that's too close by and it stabs your car. It also has the seating is different. It has this water resistant seating surface it had a name and I can't remember it was it was like a brand name. Which is kind of cool that it doesn't look like this weird vinyl, sometimes the water resistance stuff you're like I don't want to sit on that all the time. Like it's just kind of crummy looking. This actually was pretty nice. And it has all sorts of nice little forest or wilderness logos. There's badges on the outside there's even a little logo that's always like on your instrument cluster that you say so it you're slightly more capable version of your forester just like there's a slightly more capable version of the outback and the impression I get is they're going to roll this out continue to do this sort of older just trim like almost like a submarine like you have the Denali for the GMC like it's their own little sub brand doesn't change anything else. So you still have the 2.5 liter four cylinder 182 horsepower, 176 pound feet of torque. There's a CVT, it does a good job of moving it along. I mean it's fine. It's not a win any races kind of vehicle. But that's probably not why you're buying a Subaru. The only time that it ever felt like it was a little like not good, I guess is if you really aggressively accelerate if you want to get some power because you want to pass and you smash that gas pedal down. It's it lets you know that is working very, very hard and it doesn't appreciate it. It gets very, very noisy. That's Roberto Baldwin 19:28 it, I don't appreciate this. Like I don't appreciate Nicole Wakelin 19:30 you pushing that gas pedal all the way to the floor, please stop now. So but it also and it gets good fuel economy it gets drops a little bit in the wilderness. So the fuel economy for the regular version is of it is 29 combined, the fuel economy for the wilderness goes to 26. So you do take a little fuel economy hit with gas prices creeping ever higher by the second that might be something to consider if you're looking at something that you're really going to be putting a lot of miles on it. It's gonna cost you a little bit more than get The rest of the forester lineup otherwise it's you know it it does kind of what you expect a Subaru to do it feels rugged it feels capable It feels like your dog can run inside this thing with muddy paws and you're not going to have to worry about like having damaged all your fancy perforated leather trims and open poor Woods it doesn't have that kind of thing so and then it has you get either a 6.5 inch screen or you get an eight inch screen is like their upgraded screen for infotainment it's just fine entertainments fine there is nothing it I think it's a nice little added thing you know, I actually had to write a story for Kelley Blue Book and they actually just had me rundown because so many OEMs are doing it It wasn't the best cars for off roading or the best It was like here are what all the automakers are making right now. This is what they call their off road trip These are their off road packages and whether or not they actually do anything to make the car more capable or if they just make it look kind of Butch Yeah, the thing was when I started like you know this, I'm thinking okay, I can do this Can you give me an idea of the number of words just so I have an idea of how much into the weeds you want me to get with each of these. They gave me a workout and I'm like I've written like half of my guys this workout needs to be much bigger you need to make this two stories because there are a lot more vehicles out there and it was huge the number of vehicles and I'm like my gosh it's everything from like sedans that they've given their little off road look to actual capable vehicles like you know, the rafter really is off road capable, you know, so yeah, so super is kind of getting in on that action with the wilderness. I liked it, I thought it was a good choice. probably somewhere in here I have pricing weight scrolling through my giant thing. So it starts the base price on the forester in general, is 25 195. When you get to the wilderness by the time you hit that you're 32 820 so you've taken a pretty good chunk from a jump from the base trim up to the wilderness, but you still have it's it's in the middle because of the limited or delimiters a little less, but the touring is 35. So two, three fourths. What does that math $3,000 more you get the very top trim of the forester which is the fanciest so you're either paying for your fanciest trim at 35. Or you're not quite as fancy but a little bit more off roadie at 32. Roberto Baldwin 22:14 And you know the Ford the Subaru lineup isn't fancy. So when you get the top trim, you're just starting at the top, you're getting a Subaru, which as a fan, as an owner of multiple Subarus. I'm like, Yes, they're not. They're not they're not fancy cars. Nicole Wakelin 22:30 But here's the thing. You're exactly right. You're not buying a Subaru. He's like, really, I want the fancy Well, they got the wrong dealership, walk down the street to another one. If you're like I want the, you know, reliable, rugged all wheel drive. Uh, don't have to worry about throwing stuff in the car, whether it's the kids that you're velcroing into the car seats or whether it's a dog or whether it's like muddy boots or shoes or whatever. That's why you get a super Yeah. And on that if Roberto Baldwin 22:58 you're going skiing every weekend, and you're like you're you're a property here like the weekend and a nice like Audi or you know, you're going like I'm doing I'm I'm a ski bum and Nicole Wakelin 23:09 that's when you buy Roberto Baldwin 23:10 I'm gonna I ride a bicycle every weekend. I need something I can attach it to and that's the sewer. The sewer is the thing you attach things to Nicole Wakelin 23:17 you attach the exactly, you attach. Oh, that was the other thing they did was that's worth noting too They beefed up the and I can't find it exactly. The roofrack on the wilderness can hold more weight, like the static weight, I think is 800 pounds. And I think that's a couple of 100 pounds more than the standard because they put these extra cross bars and stuff. The idea is you could put they had a display where they had like a three person pop up tent. So instead of just being able to handle the weight of a two person tent, it can handle the weight of a three person tent. Sam Abuelsamid 23:50 Because you know what to do when you've taken a car like the Subaru and raised a cycle up there is add another 800 pounds on the roof to raise your center of gravity 16 inches and Roberto Baldwin 24:02 a boxer engine the boxer engine lowers your center of gravity we all know that. Nicole Wakelin 24:07 We can also tell more. So the standard tow rating I believe is 1500. wilderness is 3000. So it doubles how much you can tell. So there's some products you can tell more, you can put more stuff on the roof that is now harder to reach. And you can bump into stuff because you have skid plates. Roberto Baldwin 24:24 Cool. It's 9.2 inches and I just looked at the G wagen. The G wagen. Clarence is 9.5 D So when he really started like think about like when you put it in out in the sort of like obviously it's not gonna it's not a G wagen it doesn't have the capabilities. And Subarus will more likely go off road than g Nicole Wakelin 24:44 but you know and they don't feel it like we don't expect you to go rock crawling in this. What we're trying to do is make it a little bit easier for you to get if you're the outdoor adventure type. And you're like oh that roads a little rough. I'm gonna have to walk my stuff down there. Oh, I can't quite make this. They're gonna make it a little easier. You know, you can handle We there's we went through some sections where there's a fair degree of articulation like we had one tire maybe three feet in the air and it's it's fine like you it is it is capable and going downhill they have the little exmo with that hill descent control you can go down we were on that was like loose gravel so the kind of stuff that if your tires lock you're just going to keep sliding down that sucker because there's nothing to stop you and the expert thing and it will hold us and it did a good job so yeah it's it is it is surprisingly capable like I said you're not rock crawling in this but you can do probably more than you would in the average little SUV. I would if I was a Subaru person if I was in the market for this and I was someone who tended to go out there a little bit more i'd totally spring for the wilderness in a heartbeat. But for the touring I go with wilderness cool Sam Abuelsamid 25:48 very cool. Yeah, actually I think that that grandparents is more than what you get in a Ford Bronco sport which I think is like 8.7 or 8.8 inches so you know and that's nominally an off road you know rugged vehicle so yeah, I get quite bad Nicole Wakelin 26:06 this is this is the kind of thing you're less likely to even if you're not thinking well I'm going to do something on purpose a little bit more rugged than I would have if I didn't have this one you're less likely to get yourself into the situation where it's like I totally got this oh crud no I don't is you bought them out on something you know that little bit of extra ground clearance is going to make a difference I was I we had the the course that we had had you're going up and down some pretty decent hills with you know some packed dirt that sort of had rocks sticking out of it that kind of thing you just kind of have to pay attention to a little bit and I was taking it pretty fast and it was really well it was fine it was well mannered. It was easy to steer and on dirt The thing was absolutely phenomenal going home like really going perhaps a little bit speedier than maybe it was prudent but it was really really fun and it definitely felt like okay I would take this I would take this off road I would generally because sometimes they tell you you can take a vehicle off road and once you drive it you're like yeah no I would never really serious I would seriously take this one on off road adventure but they have Roberto Baldwin 27:08 that really nice all wheel drive system where if one tire slips move in the trap mechanically the machine it moves it to the power to the other to the other wheel which I really liked when I used to go snowboarding in my my wr x which was a lot of snow and you're like well one tire slipping up everyone else has got it it's cool it's yeah Nicole Wakelin 27:26 and that's an eye on purpose there was a section of just start that was very wide I mean it's like three car lanes wide let's say in this one little spot very wide there's no one there and I am purpose pushing too hard I'm like I want to see if I can get it to break loose a little bit and as soon as you do it's like nope and it like puts you right back in so it when it loses that traction it takes like a heartbeat and it's like no I got you girl this is fine. I'm going to send it all to the other tires we're good here. Roberto Baldwin 27:50 I like it there will be a little little a little pop up this is I gotcha girl. Nicole Wakelin 27:54 That's what it should say gotcha. Gotcha Roberto Baldwin 27:55 girl. We good. Sam Abuelsamid 28:00 All right. This week I have had the 2022 Jeep wagoneer series two so this is currently sort of the closest you can get to a base wagoneer until sometime next year, they're going to watch a series one. So this isn't the Grand wagoneer which is the really really fancy one. It's just the kind of pretty fancy one and it's the cheapest they've both the wagoneer and the Grand wagoneer are going to be available in series one series two series three trims. This is the mid level of the standard wagon here and it's the four wheel drive. And you know with the launch of the wagoneer you know Jeep is clearly going even more market than they already have been over the last decade. The rear wheel drive series to which I don't think you can actually don't think they're actually building yet I don't think they're gonna start building those till after the first of the year. But the rear wheel drive series to wagoneer starts at $69,440 the four wheel drive is starts at 72 for 40. This is a big SUV. It's it's not the biggest you can get Roberto Baldwin 29:18 your square footage is what you're getting. You're paying for like Sam Abuelsamid 29:22 lots of square this is this is the McMansion of SUVs. So yeah, the wagoneer and Grand wagoneer. They slot in in between the standard length expedition navigator taho Yukon, escalate. And the long wheelbase versions of those, you know, the suburban, the Yukon XL, they'll escalate XL, et cetera. So it's about four inches longer than the standard length versions of the full size SUVs from Ford and GM. And about I think about six inches shorter Then the long wheelbase version, and it's wide and it feels it feels very wide. You know, it feels like it's wide. I think that talked about this back in the summer when did the first drive in New York you know, which was a very strange venue for driving something like this driving out of Manhattan to Jersey and up to White Plains, and then back again, you know, when, when we're driving back into Manhattan, that time coming in from the north along the Henry Hudson Parkway, you know, the Hudson Parkway, it's like three lanes in each direction. There's almost no shoulders on either side. If you're in the left lane, you're right up against a concrete jersey barrier and then of course you've got lots of traffic on the adjacent lanes to your right. And so you're always hyper aware of how wide this thing feels in the lane. It fits in a lane but that doesn't leave a whole lot of extra space. Nicole Wakelin 30:57 It doesn't feel like it fits in the lane. Like you know it's fitting because other cars aren't driving in behind the wheel here like really easily be fitting right here. Sam Abuelsamid 31:05 Not really feel you It feels like you're filling the lane with this thing. So never feel entirely comfortable driving this thing. From from that Roberto Baldwin 31:17 person getting your tax money's worth of that lane you're getting all the apps you were using or Nicole Wakelin 31:25 you suddenly you don't feel bad paying for that highway budget you're like I am taking advantage of every ounce of the pavement I help people Sam Abuelsamid 31:32 trust me. You will be paying for that highway budget with this thing. It's the wagon here so the Grand wagoneer comes with a 6.2 liter or 6.4 liter Hemi the standard wagoneer comes with a 5.7 liter Hemi with the E torque system that's that's the 48 volt mild hybrid system. It's EPA rated at 17 miles combined 15 City 20 Highway I drove to Indianapolis and back yesterday which is about a 600 mile round trip you know so pretty much entirely highway driving it averaged 17.3 on on that trip Nicole Wakelin 32:13 so it beat their estimate Sam Abuelsamid 32:15 well it'd be the combined estimate the highway estimate is 20 so it fell short of the highway Nicole Wakelin 32:21 oh I'm sorry yeah, Roberto Baldwin 32:24 did you I'm assuming you probably had like cruise control or Sam Abuelsamid 32:27 cruise control you know adaptive cruise control you know it was yeah it wasn't driving significantly over any posted speed limits you know, it wasn't going 100 it was driving the freeway traffic you know so yeah 510 miles is there that's that's you know, it's it is it is a thirsty beast you know I stopped on the way back to fill it up cost $82 to fill it up you know, and that's 24 gallons of gas and that's that's with regular you know, if you're putting in premium if you decide to put in premium you're you're really gonna be paying so Nicole Wakelin 33:06 what does it does it recommend premium on that or regular? Sam Abuelsamid 33:10 I think it actually recommends mid grade I put you on the spot Yeah, I think I think it Roberto Baldwin 33:14 did great. All right. Sam Abuelsamid 33:17 Good I didn't see that on the car when I was filling it up last night I opened it up it didn't see anything there's specified at any rate. Yeah, aside from the the sheer size and its thirst for fuel. This is actually a really nice vehicle. I mean, if you're gonna take a long road trip and if you're gonna drive cross country or something, aside from how much it's gonna cost you to drive cross country you know, it's actually a really nice drive for a long, long trip. You know, I said it's about four hours from from here to Indy. And you know, it was a very, very comfortable, it's a very smooth ride. The one I had was equipped with the optional convenience, the convenience group, the $4,000 convenience group, which includes things like heads up display, heated second row seats, the quadrille lift air suspension, so what the air suspension it it is very, very comfortable, and it raises and lowers the vehicle so when you put it into an off road mode, it'll lift it up and give you extra ground clearance. I don't know off the top of my head what the ground clearance is. When you get out, it'll lower it down so it's easier to get in and out of so that's all really nice to have got traffic sign recognition, manual window, shades in the back, things like that. So all the all the good stuff you would expect at a $70,000 plus price point. The you know the infotainment system in here. It's the the new Uconnect five, which is an Android automotive based infotainment system but unlike the Pollstar and Volvo that we've talked about before, still ANSYS has opted not to use Google automotive services so you don't get the Google Apps you don't get Google Maps it uses TomTom for maps uses Amazon Alexa voice services for voice control which actually works quite well was impressive I tried you know doing some some voice commands you know to raise and lower the temperature you know if you say you know Hey Miss a you know I'm cold you know it'll raise the temperature a couple of degrees or you know, do the reverse as well it did a good job with recognizing inputs for navigation, things like that. There are some apps you can download for things like Domino's and I think a couple of different gas station chains things like that. So it's a it's a very nice responsive system the screen is great you know you know it's got bright nice and bright and has good contrast so it's easy to read the interface is good so no issues there you know the interior this thing you know feels like a 70 to $80,000 vehicle very nice materials nice leather real wood trim. I'm personally I prefer open pore wood trims if you're going to use that as opposed to the glossy wood that this one had. And you can get that that those are those are options on the various Waggoner trim levels but that's that's just a personal preference you know, customer can choose what they want. So you know, for a big three row full size SUV you know, things got lots of hauling capability for people for stuff for trailers. And it goes you know, it's it's surprisingly quick, you know, for a three ton SUV not not as quick as you know, like a Hummer or rivian but it's not electric yet. So it's, it's based on a heavily modified version of the Ram 1500 platform because it's got independent rear suspension. I think the front suspension is largely similar to the the Ram pickup, so it's a body on frame like the big Ford and GM utilities. This one did not have the rear seat entertainment or the optional passenger side screen which you can get the passenger side screen is I think about 12 $100 if you want that. So the front front passenger gets their own screen that has a filter on it, so the driver can't really see it. But it did have the premium group that adds the the three pane glass sunroof, all season 285 22 inch, all season tires, things like that. aluminum wheels, so very, it feels like a very premium vehicle and I think it'll be a strong competitor to the likes of the Escalades and, and the Yukon Denali and the the navigator in that in those segments. And as long as you're willing or able to handle a vehicle at large it's it's a it's not a bad choice. The total bottom line price on the one that I've gotten the driveway right now came to $80,835 including delivery and I believe that's a $2,000 delivery charge on that. So you know still lantis is really taking the lead on on wrapping up the delivery charges you know not not cheap but if you're looking for something like this it's you know, it's worth a look you can also get something you know in a similar size to this for a lot less from Ford or GM I don't know what the pricing is going to be on the series one yet when it comes out they haven't I don't think they've announced that i think i think you'll be able to get a rear wheel drive series one closer to the the low 60s so it's going to be somewhat more affordable. But what do you guys think of the design of the Waggoner Nicole Wakelin 39:03 I like how it looks I mean it's like the exterior design. It's huge. I mean it does feel like this giant beast of a car but i think i think that's who they're trying to. I don't think they're trying to be delicate or understated or reserved or modest in any way shape or form. I think it sort of fits with what the sort of the aesthetic of that vehicle is and I do like how it looks I'm I'm totally cool with how it looks on the outside. I like the inside too though. I think it looks the interiors on this on this because and I'm gonna make six we had the wagoneer and we had the Grand wagoneer last time I drove I'll be seeing them again on Tuesday because I think they're bringing some here but I just the interiors just are gorgeous. They're beautiful like the design and the look of the interiors I know you know, the open pore wood thing aside, they do such a good job of creating a feel inside those cars. They design the interiors with the material And the colors and the trims and when they have you know, they have this one was a called Blue a GAVI yeah I may have messed that up but it was that and like blue you're like what is it 1982 no this blue is absolutely stunning and it's this lighter blue and there's little bits of tan trims they make an incredible interior like they knock it out of the park so I liked how it looked I had no problems at all with how it looked Roberto Baldwin 40:26 you know the front is is very much wagoneer it's funny because I put my hand up to the screen and if you cover up the front it just it's just any other like that going back to the SUVs like all SUVs sort of look the same. If Sam Abuelsamid 40:38 the one I have is the car that makes it even worse than that. Roberto Baldwin 40:42 Oh yeah, so then it sort of looks like everything else but I do I like the the updated version of the that wagon here grill. It's not overbearing. It's not a you know, a giant pickup truck drill, which I don't know why people insist on having essentially billboards in the front of their car now. But whatever. That's a whole other thing. Nicole Wakelin 41:03 You can read that space that's potential income opportunity. Roberto Baldwin 41:08 It is Yeah, go What do you got for it? Oh, you know what he ever thinking about advertising your dentist's office in the front of my my truck? No, I think you know, it's it's, it's it, you know, there's there's definitely it's definitely going after that, that escalate, look and feel and, you know, but you're going to have that sort of different. They have different grill. So it's sort of, you know, but if you look at all of them from the side, you're like, what is that? Is that like, Which one is that? What's Wait, hold on? Sam Abuelsamid 41:38 Yeah, yeah, they'll do the Roberto Baldwin 41:41 same. Don't like close one eye. And then and then put your hand over the frame because you're like, Oh, wait, hold on. It doesn't have that little cut out. That little slight cut out in that rear. That rear window. That very, behind the way a b c pillar. Nicole Wakelin 41:58 f pillar D pillar. Heavy pillars are on this puppy Roberto Baldwin 42:01 there. I unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to get into the wagoneer or the Grand wagoneer as of yet, so I did have the Macintosh. Sam Abuelsamid 42:14 This one did not have the Macintosh audio. It had the bass Alpine audio system. So just a mirror. Audio System. Yeah, that sounded good. It's not as Roberto Baldwin 42:25 you know, I got an Alpine in my Jaguar. I'm just saying. Sam Abuelsamid 42:30 No Macintosh labs, but you know it'll do. Yeah, yeah. I think the I think the Macintosh is you have to go up to the series three to get the Macintosh and the blue a gavai interior is only in the Grand wagoneer and that does combine for wood trim. Which I'm personally in favor of. Nicole Wakelin 42:54 But see that's what you need. You need Did you see that? If it was at the lodge? Sam Abuelsamid 42:58 Yeah. No, I drove I drove one with the blue GAVI interior that's what I drove back into New York Nicole Wakelin 43:02 that was so pretty Yeah, yeah. Unknown Speaker 43:05 Now there's gonna be a lot of people Roberto Baldwin 43:06 picked up at the airport and these things is what I'm saying. Sam Abuelsamid 43:09 And you know, if you have if you have devices to charge, there are USB ports galore in this thing, there's, there's four in the front in the in the at the bottom of the center stack there's two USB A's and two USB C's, there's a couple more another USB A and A C in the center console been under your arm. There's four more in the second row and I have to go back and check I'm not sure if this one also has the third row I know and some of them some trim levels you also get additional USB ports in the third row as well so everybody can charge their stuff Roberto Baldwin 43:46 if you're if you say your car will seat seven they're better they're better be seven USB ports at this point if you say your car will see five there may be five USB ports that's that's where we're at right now as a society when you get into a car like it seats five we got two USB ports in the front. No, no that's not how things work anymore. Sam Abuelsamid 44:04 Plus there's also a CI wireless charging pad in the band at the front of the console so that if you're using you know you can just drop your phone on there and charge that way and which is nice if you're going to use wireless Android Auto or Apple CarPlay which supports both of those so you don't you don't have to mess around with a cable as long as your phone Of course stays properly positioned at the optimum spot to actually stay continue charging but you know that's that's not a stone lantis unique problem that's just just a wireless charging issue. Roberto Baldwin 44:39 It's just a CI yeah ours ours isn't working our Hyundai it's we have to take it in and get it fixed. It's this never worked. My wife's like what the hell am I gonna we'll take it and when you don't have to go to Yeah, it's just never turned on. We're like moving things taking cases off, sliding it around. And it's like I got to take this back into this. This, but it's not a thing. We're like, Oh yeah, maybe Like, oh no, hold on. We got to order a guy. We got to throw a Raspberry Pi in there. There you go. That's fine. Nicole Wakelin 45:05 It's working. No, no, no, it's good. It's Roberto Baldwin 45:08 good. Just stick it out like some sort of wacky Rick and Morty like thing. Sam Abuelsamid 45:13 So $80,000 Grand wagoneer series two, four by four, very nice full size premium SUV if that's what you're what you're in the market for. Roberto Baldwin 45:26 I did a quick look at the gas station near my house. That's a chevron because I typically only get gas at Chevron because I'm fancy that way. And the mid level Indian and this is California, Northern California. mid level Chevron gas to fill this thing is like $118 Oh, God. So you know, that's why I have an Eevee Sam Abuelsamid 45:46 Yeah, I mean, that's that is, you know, that is one of the potential advantages of going with you know, the the options, you know, especially if you're if you are interested in fuel economy, the you know, the GM SUVs do offer a three liter diesel engine, which gets really good fuel economy and has lots and lots of torque. And you know, if you're going to be telling that one's a great option, that's something you can't get in the waggener, they will be adding a plug in hybrid to the wagoneer, probably sometime in 2022. And you know, that should get significantly better fuel economy and also give you some all electric driving range. But for now, that's that's probably the biggest downside of opt in for the wagoneer over its competition is the fuel economy. Yeah. All right, Nicole, you were here in my neck of the woods this week, for a few days to drive a bunch of the vehicles that are eligible for the North American car, truck and SUV of the Year awards. And I was and so what were your what were your highlights of the vehicles you got to drive over a couple of days. Nicole Wakelin 47:01 It was nice to finally get behind the wheel of a couple of vehicles that might not be like wow, but just somehow I have never had the opportunity to drive them. One of them I finally got to drive the Volkswagen ID for I know you guys have all driven it. You're like whatevs. I have never even like seen the inside of that before. So it's really cool. It was neat to get to drive that. Although I do have to fess up, I sat down. I'm like, Okay, I know what I'm doing. I'm a jury. I know cars, and I cannot. I cannot find how to. Yeah, and I'm like I'm sitting there and I'm looking at I'm like where where's the gear shift? Because I have not looked at the interior that's from like, how do I change the gear? Where it's like sort of mounted to the infotainment, I mean, the instrument cluster, like there's a little thing, that little knob that you twist. But if you happen to have your seat positioned exactly right, that little knob is completely obscured by the steering wheel. So as you stare forward, you're like, I don't know how to put this in Drive. And I literally have like doing like, lean left looked lean, right? And I'm like, oh, they're so but I got a chance to drive that which I know not this like amazing, mind blowing car, but I was really excited to have and I really liked it. And then I got to that are pretty cool. I got a chance to drive the rivian r1 t. And I got a chance to drive. Ye oldie Hummer? No, yeah, so those were two pretty deep things. So actually, the thing on the Hummer that was there's some new features that they've come out with I've never even driven a vehicle with supercruise before again, one of those things that somehow has just alluded to me over the years so I finally got to try out supercruise which was kind of neat. And it it does feel like when you're behind the wheel of the Hummer, it's funny it doesn't it's gigantic like when you see it, there is substance behind that vehicle but it's still kind of fun to drive but the one that you actually get a crack at to Sam was the rivian r one t so we both got a chance to drive that last week. Sam Abuelsamid 49:01 Yeah, I'm thinking that I'm not on a jury but I reached out to to rivian pr to ask if I could get a little bit of time in it after the jurors were done and they said yeah, if you want to come up you know first thing tomorrow morning before the jurors start can get you an hour in there says okay, I will do that. And so I went out there and spent about an hour driving it with with one of their engineers sitting in the passenger seat. And I was overall really impressed with this. Thank you know first thing to note, you know, we've I think we've mentioned it before, is this is not really a direct competitor to f150 Silverado ram it's it's a smaller truck it's it's closer in size to the midsize trucks like the Ranger Tacoma and Colorado. That said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. You know, I think for the vast majority of people that buy pickup trucks for personal use, that's a far better side And even that was probably bigger than what most people really need. But I think that's a far more useful size for most people. So I think that that that part is really good. You know, you get in this thing. It's, it's not an inexpensive vehicle, I think they start about, like the base base version is 67,000. Right now, the launch additions are about 74, which is what they're building initially. Yeah. And, like the wagoneer, it feels premium inside, which is one of the knocks against Tesla for a long time, especially on the Model S and X was at their price points. They didn't really feel like premium luxury vehicles. You know, the materials, you know, kind of felt kind of cheap, you know, there wasn't a lot of stuff in there. This really feels like a more premium vehicle. You know, it's got nice words not yours. I love vegan leathers, there's no vegan loves, no animal hides in here, animal hides, everything seemed really well. Every other is a fitting finish. Looks really solid look. You know, driving it, you know, it feels it feels very solid, you know, there were no rattles, weeks. And, you know, granted, when they're preparing vehicles for an event. They're gonna go over it with a fine tooth comb. So we'll see what actual production production vehicles like Nicole Wakelin 51:27 it's to its credit of the vehicles that I drove. And it was like, we have like a day and a half that I basically spent driving these cars, you can take them out for however long you wanted. I had three that had scary bumps and rattles like the one that I took back on like, yeah, so it's doing this thing. I don't think it's supposed to be doing so I'm sure they all think they would over but the fact that reviews they did it, it didn't have any of those like gold. Sam Abuelsamid 51:52 Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, I think it's a good size. But there are some things to be aware of, you know, certainly has lots of power, you know, for motors, 800 plus horsepower. The, you know, just before I went from my drive, you know, half hour before we'd have, we'd had a, you know, big thunderstorm came through, you know, so the roads are still pretty damp. So I didn't take full advantage of that power. But, you know, this thing feels quick. But it's also fairly hefty. And I asked the engineer how much you know what the weight was, he said, you know, 7000 pounds, which for a midsize truck You know, we've complained about the Hummer before the 9000 pounds, this is more than I was more than I was expecting this thing to weigh because the the F 150 lightning they've said the curb weight that is only 6500 pounds, and that's a significantly larger truck. But it you know, it's quick, and you know, I thought the handling was really good, the ride quality was really good, it's standard with an air suspension system on all four corners. There there was something interesting that I learned about this, which is that you know, they've got four motors, one tied to each wheel, the rear motors are actually have clutches between the the motor and the half shafts, so they can actually decouple the rear wheels from the motors so that when you're just cruising down the highway, you're driving at moderate speeds it's it'll be a two wheel drive and it's not dragging the motors along so you're not getting so it's more going to be more efficient that way by decoupling everything at the rear. So it actually becomes a front wheel drive truck in that situation which is fine because you know the front wheels are where you're also going to get most of your region from when you lift off the accelerator. And so that's a that's a good solution. For that case for that use case. There there was an issue I think you also experienced with because the you can change the mode and raise the change change the right height of the thing get up to 14 inches of ground clearance. The engineer changed the mode one time put it in sport mode, it wouldn't switch back to other to the other modes. So it got stuck not clear if that was a mechanical or a software problem. Also Yeah, Nicole Wakelin 54:11 I did have exactly the same It was exactly the same situation the exact same process that has had a little trouble as well. Sam Abuelsamid 54:17 Yeah. on the rivian website right now. If you look at the the features on there, one of the things is I'm reading this verbatim rivian driver plus is standard on every vehicle we build delivering true hands free driving assistance along with our full set of safety features, the system's continually update adds functionality through over the air updates. You does not have hands free functionality right now. It will at some point probably. But right now it doesn't but you know they they have gone further than certainly Another notable Evie maker in terms of the sensor suite that they included in there which is you know, it's got 10 cameras on Outside, it has an infrared driver monitor camera on the inside, got five radars get ultrasonic sensors. So it should be capable of providing supercruise like functionality at some point in the future via an over the air update but it's not there at launch it's it's very much a hands on system right now, that said, worked fine. You know, did it you know, even on you know, damp road and it was still relatively dark, when we had it out, it seemed to be able to attract the lane lines quite well. didn't really have any issues there. So that that was all good. You know, the other thing to keep in mind, the front trunk, it's got an 11 cubic foot front trunk, which is a little bit smaller than f150. But still, you know, it's a good size. And but the, the grill area is not actually any grill there. But unlike the F 150. And also the Hummer, the grill is not attached to the hood. So you have a fairly high lift over height to put stuff in there. As opposed to you know, having, you know, just above from the bumper up being open. But the gear tunnel is so cool. Nicole Wakelin 56:05 You know, it's such a neat feature, the way that and the just to have storage that goes left to right across the vehicle. It's Sam Abuelsamid 56:12 just funky, yeah, uninterrupted all the way across. So that's really cool. And you can, you know, unlike most TVs, you can get this with a full size spare tire that sits in the compartment underneath the floor, the bed floor, so it's above the battery and the motors but underneath the bed floor. So you know, if you don't have the full size spare, you can use that as another, I think 14 cubic feet of cargo space lockable. But yeah, you know, or you can have the full size spare, which if you're going to be off roading is probably a good thing to take with you. So I thought that was really good. Nicole Wakelin 56:51 I did I had much the same feeling I thought that it was it was a good vehicle. I was sort of pleasantly surprised. I don't know quite what I was expecting. But you don't actually the only problem we had was that suspension issue that you and I both had. And given that we drove the exactly the same vehicle. Did you drop it into one problem with that specific? Sam Abuelsamid 57:10 They had a blue one and a green one? Nicole Wakelin 57:11 Oh, no. Wait, maybe we didn't try the same one. Did I try the blue one? Now? I'm trying to remember. Maybe we didn't? Roberto Baldwin 57:19 Did you? Did you? Did you put it on the Instagrams. Nicole Wakelin 57:22 I didn't put on the Instagrams. Of course I didn't because now I need to remember which color I drove everywhere the cars I drove it just remember every color there were a lot of vehicles with this. So maybe we didn't drive the same one. But still Yeah, that was the only problem that I had, that I ran into. But overall, I thought the same thing I was you know, it's I liked the interior. I like that the there's a fine line between having a very clean, very minimalist, very simplified interior that doesn't just look like yeah, we saved a ton of money on this thing. Like there's that's that's hard to make it look good without making it look like you just cheaped out. And they did a good job of making it look good the design of it and where they choose where and how they use the various materials. It's very streamlined. Very it makes me think like Scandinavian, you know, like a whole, there's not a lot of flash happening in there. But it doesn't look like there's not a lot of flash because it's cheap. It looks like no, we just don't need that flash. You don't need all this in this car. It's just a nice quality attractive interior. And I did like that. I thought it was Yeah. So overall, Sam Abuelsamid 58:20 you're still a turn signal stock and the stock for the transmission shift as well. So you know, as as it should be. And there's a few other buttons. Yeah, I Nicole Wakelin 58:29 didn't have to look around for 20 minutes to figure out how to Roberto Baldwin 58:35 do this. Sam Abuelsamid 58:36 And Robbie, you should be getting one of these. Tony said you should. I think you're going to be getting one in a few weeks. So hopefully you'll have a look. Yeah, Roberto Baldwin 58:43 I should be. I'm going to try to take it off the roads and hopefully put it back in the sports modes and put things in the I don't know, I have. Well I don't think any of the surfboards will fit in their snowboard. I'll throw some snowboards in that little tunnel and see how that works out and they go Yeah, throw the dog in the bag. Nicole Wakelin 59:05 kind of thing. Yeah, there should be a video of a dog just running through the tunnel from one end to the other like the agility courses they do. I got to talk who just even just fancy him shooting out one side of the car. But Roberto Baldwin 59:19 she just ate a remote control. That's where I just now have a fun time later on. Yeah, so she well she doesn't actually just eat she just crunches it up destroys it. It's the it's the remote. Yeah, anyway, but she'll fit. I think she'll fit in that little tunnel. Nicole Wakelin 59:34 You should see you she'll scooch through the tunnel. A little video of dog going through school. Roberto Baldwin 59:37 Good. Good. Good, good. Good. So where are you going to do is our car. We'll see I have this dog right Nicole Wakelin 59:45 through the tunnel. Sam Abuelsamid 59:50 Excellent. All right. Let's see what else did you have any other highlights from from the nactoy drive that you wanted to share? Before we move on Nicole Wakelin 1:00:02 the only thing that was really good the the Hummer that I want to call it crab control. It's not called Sam Abuelsamid 1:00:07 crab crab. Nicole Wakelin 1:00:08 Crab the site Yeah, Sam Abuelsamid 1:00:11 crab crab crab crawl that sideways Nicole Wakelin 1:00:14 driving thing sort of sideways driving thing. So first of all to see it in person it totally looks like the the truck is just sliding so every five year being wants to go Oh no, it's like like on the ice or something and you'll see like a car has this wheels turned clearly what and it's like no cars don't move that way you know? So it's a little bit freaky to see it. It's even freakier inside when you realize that you're moving that way but yet you're not out of control because the winter driver in me wants to say oh Lord, I'm on the ice it's not going it's very freaky, but it's very cool. It does let you turn that thing around in this incredibly tight spots. I feel like that would be my favorite feature trying to parallel park a car that large. Sam Abuelsamid 1:00:57 When Yeah, when you're if you're turning, maneuvering in a parking lot, you know normally the crab the crab crawl feature steers all four wheels in the same direction. But if you're maneuvering in a parking lot does it counter steer the wheel so that the the fronts in the rear facing opposite direction so you get that tighter turning circle? Nicole Wakelin 1:01:17 I never you know what I don't remember seeing it counter steer the wheels? That's a good question. I'd have to ask about that. But like what I was watching it make the very tight turn it was just because it points everything in the same direction. You're instead of going, you're not really turning you're just literally moving. Sam Abuelsamid 1:01:32 Yeah, if you're parallel parking, you want them all going in the same direction. But if you're going to perpendicular Yeah, you want to go Nicole Wakelin 1:01:38 and I turned I turned it up. We were in the parking lot of where we were driving these and I took a very tight turn a little crab crawly thing does, it still takes you very it's, I don't remember, see it counters here, but it still doesn't it will turn you and you do turn. But it just uses a little bit of that. So you're turning a little bit more tightly, I guess is how to describe it. But it was pretty cool. All right, Crawl, crawl. Sam Abuelsamid 1:02:05 So continuing with electric vehicles for a moment. Tesla announced their third quarter earnings the other day, they made a bunch of money, which is good for them. Interesting thing though, out of that was they announced that going forward they are going to switch to using lithium iron phosphate batteries globally on all their standard range models. So right now up to this point in North America and Europe. They've used nickel cobalt aluminum, chemistries for their for the batteries for everything for the standard range and the extended range models. In China. They have been since they started production China for the Chinese market vehicles. They've used lithium iron phosphate batteries which iron phosphate you know compared to the nickel based batteries iron phosphate is a lot cheaper. And it's also a lot more durable. But it has less energy density than nickel chemistry. So you get about roughly 40% less capacity from a similarly sized iron phosphate battery than you do from a nickel battery. But it's it's durable. And so you can get you know, company upwards of 2000 charge cycles out of it versus about seven or 800 from a nickel battery. And when back at their Evie day last year, their battery day last year. You know Tesla alluded to the fact that they were going to probably shift to using the net or using iron batteries for their low entry level models. And they also you know they've also talked about the idea of having a million mile battery. And when they talk about million mile batteries This is what they're talking about is the the iron phosphate batteries you know they've been used in the past and particularly in China for low end e V's. You know for lower shorter range g V's that are lower cost because they they cost a lot less than nickel batteries. And they're going to start using those globally for the standard range models. So the ones that get the 230 240 miles. Any thoughts on on this on this switch for them? Roberto Baldwin 1:04:31 We need to inexpensive EBS that's I mean that really comes down to it if you can get to 50 to 30 to 40. And you can get it down in the 20 1000s before any sort of weird tax incentive, whether it be federal or state or local or whatever. We need GB V's and if this is how they do it and they can still like you know, give that 250 ish range that everyone sort of has sort of like come to the agreement that like Yeah, that's good enough. Then, yeah, more power to him. Nicole Wakelin 1:05:03 Yeah, I was scanning through that story, Sam, how much is it say like how, how much of a percentage reduction, you're going to get in range like on average compared to comparable, Sam Abuelsamid 1:05:14 what you know, what you'll get is significant, what you'll get right now is, you'll actually get about the same range. So I think the standard range plus model three standard range plus model three is rated at 262 miles. So you'll probably get, you know, somewhere between 240 and 264 with the iron battery, but because it has less energy density, like right now, if you buy the standard range model three, you actually get a smaller battery, it's got fewer cells in it, so it's a little bit lighter than the extended range model. With the iron battery, it's going to get that range, it's going to have a bigger battery, so it's going to be closer in weight to the to the extended range battery, which means you might give up a little bit of performance, a little bit of acceleration performance. The other thing with iron batteries is they also don't perform as well in cold weather. So if you live somewhere like New Hampshire, or Massachusetts or Michigan, and you've got cold winters, and you're thinking about buying one of these, you might want to stick with the extended range models, that that gets you a little bit better range in cold weather conditions than what you're going to get with an iron battery. But otherwise, you know, the iron batteries are great, except for durability for safety, there are a lot more stable, you know, you can take a lithium iron phosphate cell and stick a nail through it and you know, it's not going to have a thermal runaway the way a nickel battery does. So, you know, it has advantages and disadvantages. So depending on your circumstances, you might want to you might prefer the iron battery. Nicole Wakelin 1:06:59 thing I'm with Roberto on this if they can make it more I think make it cheaper and more affordable and help bring down prices overall, that's that's a good thing. Even in the end, even if we're going to be losing a little bit of range, especially you know where it's cold, because you got to make some of these, you know, vehicles a little bit more affordable and a little bit more mainstream. I know they're mainstream, but they're not really you know, not enough people are buying into it yet even though we're not people aren't afraid of them, I guess. But yeah, to make it more affordable and more attainable for more people. I think that's a good thing. Yeah, Roberto Baldwin 1:07:32 and if it if it gets other people to like sort of push them to make you know, cuz I know Volkswagens really trying to get something in the 20,000 20,000 range. And so you know, between the Netherlands, that's probably everyone. Sam Abuelsamid 1:07:46 You know, other other automakers have also talked about their plans to incorporate iron batteries for entry level models. In the case of Tesla, I don't expect that they're going to lower the price, because in fact, just this week, they actually raised the price on a holder on the model three in the model y. So the standard range, model three, rear wheel drive now starts at $44,000. before delivery, that went up about how much it was how much of an increase was that it was about $4,000. So around here, it's you know, it's not that affordable. You know, hopefully, you know, maybe when they do watch the lift the iron one, it'll be a little, you know, they'll drop the price back down again, I mean, Tesla often raises and lowers their prices, you know, on a whim. So maybe we'll see them lower the price again, when they when they start doing the iron batteries. But for now, they have just raised the prices. So we'll see. The let's see what else Yeah, I think that's Yeah, that's it. Okay, nothing else on that one. Let's see. The reason I drove to Indianapolis yesterday, was to attend the Indy autonomous challenge, which is a student design program this there's a bunch of different design competitions for engineering students. You know, there's things like Formula SAE formula. SAE baja program, there's, there's one that they do with electric snowmobiles, they do all kinds of different stuff. The the Indy autonomous challenge was announced about two years ago. The goal with this one is to build a self driving racecar. They, what they did was they used nd lights cars, which are based on the delora i l 15. And they have equipped them with a bunch of sensors and compute and the actuators necessary to steer the thing. And they gave them to a bunch of university teams of engineering students to develop the software for these and they did the competition yesterday at Indianapolis Motor Speedway of the 19 That made it to the final four actually completed the challenge. And the top three of those went on to the final shootout. Just for reference. In Indy lights, they don't currently race the Indy lights cars on the Indianapolis oval, but in when they did in the past average time average speeds on the lap times were about 195 miles an hour. The fastest car yesterday hit about 155 miles an hour on the front straight, which is pretty good. And they averaged the average speed over two timed hot laps was about 135 miles an hour for the the winning team, which is pretty impressive. There were a few spins, few crashes. The team from MIT that their car went out, went out of the pits. And on the the warm up lap, coming around turn for at Indy. About to take its first Hot Lap. It suddenly made a left hand turn right into the inside pit wall and crunch the left right, left right corner. Nicole Wakelin 1:11:18 happens like clearly there's like a catastrophic failure. You know, these teams are working so hard in this for so long. And it's like, oh, he didn't even get out of the gate, essentially. Sam Abuelsamid 1:11:26 Yeah, the teams didn't actually get access to the cars until about two months ago, the MIT team I think I should only got there's about six weeks ago, from the conversation I had with their team captain. So they didn't have a lot of time with the cars. Most of the work they did was in simulation. But over the last several weeks, they've spent multiple days at Indy and Lucas Oil Speedway in Indianapolis, a smaller track, trying to fine tune these things. And, you know, they were considering what they were trying to do the speeds that were running. It was fairly impressive, but there's clearly still a lot of work to do. But I'm curious, you know, are either of you interested at all in racing? And if you're interested in racing, are you interested at all in autonomous race cars? Nicole Wakelin 1:12:15 I am not someone who follows racing as a rule. But I do think the idea of having autonomous cars racing is is it's totally different than having a you know a driver in the car but there's still someone presumably at this point monitoring things and making sure it's it's it's more technology thing instead of a feats of skill thing on the part of the driver. I think it's kind of cool. Roberto Baldwin 1:12:37 I, the only racing I actually follow is that Netflix series my f1 that's I really don't I, I I've never been able to just watch sports or care about sports. I tried. I tried to care about sports, but I just don't. I don't. I can say I did I did my best. I don't care. I don't care about football. I don't care about basketball. I don't care about racing. I like doing things if someone Hey, let's go play some basketball. I'm like, Yeah, but I'm not gonna go and do that. Nicole Wakelin 1:13:07 But go into things where there's sports related nibbles. If there's a football party, there's going to be dip and nachos in sets. Yeah, that's Yeah, that's, Roberto Baldwin 1:13:17 I've been to a Formula E race. And that was kind of fun, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna it's fun to like be at a place and like, I've been to baseball games and basketball. It's fun to be at those things, but I have no I don't care who wins. I just like kind of like the people watching and just sort of the spectacle and the enjoyment. That said with when it feels autonomous racing I feel like it would just be like watching the video game like cutscene of like, like Forza or Gran Turismo, they're just like Alright, well all these things know the track they okay I guess you just turn up the aggression there's like a little like dial like oh I'll be more aggressive on this one I'll turn it down because you're using a ball of tires at some point it becomes this like very this this math problem as it determines you know, oh well the heat is this and the sun is in this direction and the wind is blowing this way and the tires are this and that's kind of racing anyway but you still have the human element I think once you throw in just okay now the robot knows all this too. Here's like okay Nicole Wakelin 1:14:18 yeah human had to program the robot. I guess. Sam Abuelsamid 1:14:23 To me, some someone that likes you know, racing, you know, I like to watch you know, the drivers get out there and show their skills behind the wheel. And there's obviously is a technology element associated with that with with building the cars. But you know, ultimately, the the driver is in control of the car is a human driver that is got to find the best line and not make mistakes and not crash and things like that. And the as an engineer, I You know, I like the idea of something like this, you know, as a competition for engineering students as a way to hone their skills and develop their skills, developing the software, and the hardware and everything. I think it's great for for a student engineering competition, but as something for you as a sport, I have absolutely zero interest in autonomous race cars like there's no mode by Robbie, there's the you know, they do the annual self driving race cars thing at Sonoma Raceway every year. I just have zero interest in watching autonomous race cars from a motorsport perspective just purely interested in from a from an engineering perspective, you know, as as a way to train engineers. I like I like that part of it but but it was a fun day Roberto Baldwin 1:15:51 nerd you're like oh, yeah, exactly. Sam Abuelsamid 1:15:53 Yeah. So all right. Let's move on let's wrap up with a few listener questions that we got first up Patrick Kerrigan. How soon will we see a hybrid get 100 miles per gallon? Well, it's actually done remember the the Volvo or that the Volvo the Volkswagen? Was it the XL two that that that two seater that they built a few years back it was a little teardrop shaped thing, tiny little car and it had a I think a two cylinder diesel engine and a hybrid and it actually got something like 215 miles per gallon you know, realistically There you go. You know, you can you can do it. You know, for something that people want to drive something that more than 100 people are going to want to buy it's it's not it's not really that practical. And the reality is once you get past about 40 miles per gallon, the actual amount of fuel you save it's diminishing returns if you look at it in terms of fuel consumption, how many gallons per mile or gallons per 100 miles you using the improvements the reductions in actual fuel consumption start you get diminishing returns and so the difference between something gets 50 miles per gallon and something gets 100 miles per gallon is actually starts to get vanishingly small. So you know, 40 to 50 miles per gallon is kind of the sweet spot for hybrids. And I think you know, that's where we're gonna see you know, most of the hybrids kind of aiming for over the next few years, at least until they get replaced by EBS. Roberto Baldwin 1:17:46 Yeah, I think that the bigger thing is like how many miles Can you drive an Eevee mode because I think for the most part when we're driving like doing our daily errands, if you can cover all that and emo then you're like alright, I'm golden you just plug it in at night you're ready to go and then when you get on the freeway I mean that's going to give you some of that until you go those 30 4050 miles and then you're like well I'm just running on gas now. I think yeah, I think that the better metric is how many miles Can I ride driving this thing and Evie mode in my daily sort of r&d you know going to work going to the store picking up the kids dropping off the dogs etc type of life that's that's where you're really sort of like oh well I'm not using any gas my brother used to commute to work and then COVID happened so he worked from home and he has a Chevy Volt with a V and he at one point that car told him you can't use electric anymore because you haven't used the gas in the last like year and so he had to run through the gas because he just hadn't been using any gas and it's just daily life because he'd been working from home and so he had to like run through all the gas and then go buy new gas and then then he could go back to not using gas apparently Sam Abuelsamid 1:19:01 Yeah, they they had a mode in there a maintenance mode because if you've ever had any gas powered devices a generator lawnmower or anything else where you leave it sitting for an extended period of time the gas gets oxygenated and you know it doesn't work properly anymore. And so you know, the the volt it, it was designed to basically run through a tank of a tank of gas over the course of about a year so periodically it would start up the engine even if you're fully charged every few weeks it would start the engine and run it for a little bit to use up some of that gas to kind of force you to go through about a tank of gas a year which you know is only a nine gallon tank and that thing so it wasn't using a whole lot of gas but just enough to make sure the gas was actually still in in good condition. Roberto Baldwin 1:19:53 Wow. Yeah, you got to put if you have a motorcycle and you like store it you're put yet to put stabilizer in it and the same thing with Yeah, basically afraid to ride motorcycles, especially in the winter months. You got to pour some stuff in there. Sam Abuelsamid 1:20:05 Yeah. And GM didn't want owners to have to put stabilizer in the vault, which is why they designed it to behave that way. Oh, the the car I was thinking of the the hybrid I was thinking of is the the VW XL one, which was good for it actually was able to get 283 miles per gallon on the European driving cycle, which is pretty impressive. But though my fit my favorite version of it, was they actually built one that wasn't a hybrid that had a Ducati motorcycle engine in it. I saw that at the Petersen museum a few years ago. Oh, wow. That was 197 horsepower, 11,000 RPM Ducati engine in there. Which would have been probably a hoot to drive. Roberto Baldwin 1:20:51 Those motorcycle engines are so powerful now. That's kind of crazy terrifying when you think about when you think about new writers and like Here you go. Here's double the power that anyone in the 80s has on your in their sport bikes in a new entry level bike have fun Sam Abuelsamid 1:21:09 Alright, next question. from Brian Baron housing was a crew the base Maverick Ford Maverick doesn't have basic cruise control That's absurd. That should be a feature on every new car today Come on Ford what's up so yeah pricing if yeah if you if you get if you get a maverick XL it does not have cruise control which is kind of ridiculous because unlike the old days you know when they added cruise control you actually back in the olden days Yeah, you actually had to had have an actuator that would you know pull on the throttle cable and do all that stuff you know so it was actually adding more hardware to enable cruise control on those vehicles. And there was a cost associated with it on modern vehicles they all have by wire throttle and braking. So everything is there The only thing that's actually missing is the switch on the steering wheel to enable the cruise control and yeah, if you step up to an X lt Maverick you do get cruise control and you know I think that this is basically you know, Ford's way of saying you know you can buy a maverick for 20 grand but you know it's kind of a bait and switch what you really want is the XL t because it's got these couple of extra features and you know it's it's only a couple $1,000 more so it's it's still very affordable and you can get an X lt Roberto Baldwin 1:22:41 or the course of a few years that's only and then you know you're in the in the financing guy's office he's like over the course of a few years, you know, you're only going to be paying like what like $20 extra a month it's totally worth $20 extra a month to have all these extra things there like I think he's got a good point. That said I've had cars with just regular cruise control and I never use cruise control. Just regular use cruise control I never use I use adaptive cruise control if is in the car, but I don't use cruise control I've had another cruise control because it's just sort of a lot. I'm just gonna drive and do something else. Yeah, adaptive cruise control. Yes, regular cruise control. I remember my 90 Honda Civic though, when you use cruise control, you could feel the accelerator pedal like moving like this is cool cheese really, it was really cool. And then I would just turn it off because I'm like I don't trust this I'm just gonna run it to the back of something because I sneezed or whatever. Sam Abuelsamid 1:23:33 Well back when I was in college when I was driving an 84 s 15 and this was in the late 80s you know that the want the truck I had had none of that stuff on there. And I actually got an aftermarket cruise control system and installed it on there. Because you know I was every couple of months I was driving back and forth between Flint Michigan in my home in Ontario. And so I was doing a lot of long boring highway drives where there wasn't much traffic and the cruise control was great for that. You know, I do prefer adaptive cruise control now. But it was great to be able to use cruise control back in those days. So it was a worthwhile investment for me. Roberto Baldwin 1:24:11 I get it from the JC Whitney catalog Did you get the Sam Abuelsamid 1:24:15 note that I did have a couple of other things that I stole from the JC Whitney catalog on that truck but I bought that somewhere else I can't remember where I got it from. Roberto Baldwin 1:24:27 I love that catalog because everything seemed really cheap and kind of terrifying. I'm like Sam Abuelsamid 1:24:33 it was yeah most most of the most of the stuff out of there out of there was was pretty bad. You know, it was it was kind of the modern equivalent of that today would be buying accessories for your car from Alibaba. Yeah, Roberto Baldwin 1:24:45 yeah, it was just like, some random dude made it at his house. Like Sam Abuelsamid 1:24:50 some back alley in Roberto Baldwin 1:24:52 the basement. Yeah, yeah. Jc Whitney makes a harbor freight look like snap on. Sam Abuelsamid 1:24:58 Exactly. think they've been out of business for a long time, haven't they? Didn't they go out of business in the 90s? Roberto Baldwin 1:25:04 I think so. That's a bummer. Anyway. Sam Abuelsamid 1:25:09 Last question, what is your preferred steering wheel style? And which manufacturer Do you think does the best I prefer ones that where there's a place to rest your hand at the bottom like the new Hyundai style is opposed to the three point wheel? Like my Tesla's or Toyota's? Nicole Wakelin 1:25:28 I don't drive with my hand resting at the bottom of the steering wheel because my dad yells at me so badly once when I was 16 for driving that way and not having proper hand position in the car that I still to this day I'm like, oh God, sorry if he's not even with us anymore, and I still can't travel they're resting on the bottom of the wheel. I don't know if I so it doesn't matter to me whether there's a spot at the bottom I don't know if they have a favorite style of drive a wheel? Roberto Baldwin 1:25:52 I don't like that. No, I know I don't like it was Alcatel whatever that that stuff you know I hate that. Nicole Wakelin 1:25:59 There's there's there's but there's like alkyne terror which I don't mind because it's like fuzzy but there's some that feel like I don't think it's how can terrorists like fo me? Roberto Baldwin 1:26:07 Oh no, Nicole Wakelin 1:26:09 I don't know what that one is. I don't like that one. No, I Roberto Baldwin 1:26:11 don't I don't want I don't want my steering wheel to feel like slimy like I'm petting a chinchilla or something. That's what Nicole Wakelin 1:26:18 shows are fuzzy fuzzy steering wheel that's Roberto Baldwin 1:26:22 not that's not where I want fuzzy I want I want to Yeah, no no I don't I know I am I am notorious like nine and three or two and 10 that's like just me driving everyone smile I'll have like one hand like using my right hand down at like 344 or five or something like that. I don't know I don't I just as long as my hands fit it's not to see yeah there's I think Stan was a very such a such a very like individual person because it depends on how you draw because he said yeah, it's like like yeah, like my like a seat that I find comfortable like other people don't find comfortable it's the same thing with steering wheels for the most part, I mean Yeah, I like steering wheels without a lot of as a regular person I like steering wheels without anything on them. It's just the steering wheel you don't have like a bunch of buttons and crap but that's you know, that's not where the world is going so we have a bunch of buttons and crap so I can't Nicole Wakelin 1:27:22 definitely not a fan of the buttons when there's too many buttons I don't like the Volvo Roberto Baldwin 1:27:25 setup or like here you go you get these many buttons this is what they do. That's it Nicole Wakelin 1:27:31 don't don't don't ask for more you get now just drive the dark Roberto Baldwin 1:27:34 jar the car as opposed to like try to look and figure out what like what's the icon on that tiny little button? Okay I got it takes like you know a few weeks go by that you know an owner it's fine but when you're when you're when you're testing cars like for a week, you're like, what the hell is this day? Sam Abuelsamid 1:27:50 On the wagon here this Yeah, I was I was trying to find the the voice control button. Because usually there's a separate button for voice control, you know, and it's usually got a little icon of like a profile somebody had with a couple of waves coming out of it, you know, indicating that they're speaking he's got Roberto Baldwin 1:28:05 Wi Fi coming out of his mouth. Sam Abuelsamid 1:28:06 Yeah. And so I'm looking around for a couple of days trying to find it. And finally I gave up and I looked in the manual, and I realized that it's actually the same button you know, that is the the button for picking up the phone when you get a phone call with the green handset icon on their handset icon was a little green microphone icon. So if you're picking up, press this button on the left hand steering wheel, or if you just want to issue a voice command, you press the same button. And it you know, I would not have figured that out if I hadn't actually looked in the mat and got frustrated and looked in the manual. But to to Okay, let me ask you one more thing. Circular or flat bottom. Roberto Baldwin 1:28:50 Um, depends on that har I mean if it's just a big SUV, it doesn't matter. Who cares. It's my knees not kidding that any sort of sporty anything I like I do like a flat bottom. Just because it gives me a little a little more space because again, when you're tall when you're tall and you're like taking up all the space in a tiny little car that's going fast do you want to as much space as possible? Yeah, Nicole Wakelin 1:29:17 the flat bottom steering Oh, because I just feel I just want the x i don't need all the X and with the clearance. I like the extra space. I just prefer Yeah. steering. Well, Roberto Baldwin 1:29:25 definitely not a yoke though. Sam Abuelsamid 1:29:26 I don't want a yoke. No, no, no yolks, not not in a road car. I'm not. I'm not racecar. Roberto Baldwin 1:29:31 I'm not flying it. I'm not flying a Cessna. Okay, I'm not. Sam Abuelsamid 1:29:38 You know, in my Miata, I actually took out that replaced the original equipment steering wheel with a Momo competition wheel which is a plain circular wheel, the nice thick rim. That's the thing I like is I like to have a nice thick rim so I can get a good grip on it. I don't like skinny steering wheel rims, as long as it's got a decent grip to it. That's that's My main thing and it's just a very basic the three spokes during wheel no buttons on it, you know leather wrapped. That's perfect. It's It's It's the ideal steering wheel. Roberto Baldwin 1:30:12 That's why I have my B or z it's there's no there's no buttons on it. It's just leather three spoke. Big round wheel. That's it. That's all it is. It's Yeah, there's, there's no there's no, change these things like nope, nope, I'm driving. I don't, I don't need again. I mean, and the rest of the world, everyone that's, yeah, people want to do everything with their wheels now. 17 buttons on our exterior command center. Sam Abuelsamid 1:30:42 Alright, and that's it for this week. Thank you very much for joining us again. Talk to you guys next time. Nicole Wakelin 1:30:50 Bye.