Sam Abuelsamid  0:00  
Coming up on episode 225 wheel bearings. It's just Robbie and me. And we talked about the Hyundai Kona Evie limited, transitioning connected cars from 3g to 4g, expanding production of the Ford Mustang Maki. Elon Musk railing against Evie incentives. The VW camp VW ID buzz camper is coming. And sab the Tesla cybertruck has just one windshield wiper, all that and more coming up next.

This is episode 225 of wheel bearings. I am Sam Abuelsamid, from guidehouse insights.

Roberto Baldwin  0:41  
And I am Roberto Baldwin from Digital Trends.

Sam Abuelsamid  0:44  
And Nicole is off, I think taking a little vacation time this week, and then she'll be popping in to where daughter's going to college and driving back home back to New Hampshire with her daughter for the holidays. So she'll be back with us next week, when we will all three of us were, believe it or not, the three of us were actually all in the same physical location for a short period of time earlier this week.

Roberto Baldwin  1:08  
It was weird. We talked about pi.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:12  
In the in the five years of doing the show through the various hosts. There has never been a time when all the hosts were actually physically present in the same location at once. Until this past Tuesday night. Wow. First time ever.

Roberto Baldwin  1:25  
I could touch them. It was amazing. Yeah. And that was in to be to be fair. That was the first time I think I've ever met Nicole in real life. Oh, really? Yeah, I think we've just sort of missed each other. I've seen you a ton of times. But Nicole, yeah, that's the first time I've ever seen Nicole in real life. So it was it was it was a nice. It was a nice, nice, nice experience. And again, we talked about pie because of Nicole. I bought a pie. And then I transported it all over California and finally to my house like three days later

Sam Abuelsamid  1:57  
I saw one of your tweets I think we're Dupuy end up upside down at some point,

Roberto Baldwin  2:01  
the pie Okay, so I stuck it in the back of a car. I stuck it in the back of the the AMG Qs upside down for just a split second I stuck it in I'm like, oh, no, when I flipped it back over. So that that would that's when it may have. Yeah, so I decided not to look at the pie. till afterwards, like a little surprise. So by the time I got it home was more of a cobbler and less of a pie. That's okay,

Sam Abuelsamid  2:25  
because I mean once it gets in your mouth all the pieces get mixed up anyway, I mean, unless you're particular about like, only eating crust and then only eating filling in separate by Na,

Roberto Baldwin  2:34  
na it's Yeah, pointless. I would I would i i hated some up at home the other day and I stuck it in the little toaster oven. And it went upside down. And I'm like, you know, at this point doesn't matter. I warmed it up upside down. It was fine.

Sam Abuelsamid  2:51  
Yeah, so for the listeners. We were driving the Hyundai ionic five or earlier this week and they drive impressions. They're still embargoed till next week, and when next week when the coals back we will talk about that in in I'm sure significant depth. But the the place where we had our lunch stop was in Julian California, and across the street from the restaurant where we ate was the Julian pie company. I think it was the Chilean pie company, right? Yes, Julian pie a company. And so a number of people bought pies to take home with them. And I had a slice of the pie with my dessert for lunch and it was most excellent.

Roberto Baldwin  3:28  
It was very good. And then and Nicole is the person who talked me into buying an entire pie, because I got to get a pie because I was just going to go across the street the next day and get a doughnut and some cider. That's it. That's all I was gonna get. And then I just kept hearing Nikolaj like you should get the apple berry one. And then I thought I got the apple berry one. And then I bought it I was like, What am I gonna do with this? Because I had another drive program with two other cars that are embargoed to Mercedes that I can't talk about now. But I had to just like and how to get on a plane with it and then multiple like shuttles to and from the airport and is Yeah, by time I got to my house. It was at eight vehicles in two planes.

Sam Abuelsamid  4:08  
I decided that you know, I just didn't want to deal with having to carry a pie around through.

Roberto Baldwin  4:16  
See, you're the smart one. I'm like pie, but I got home and my wife who spent half of her childhood in San Diego. She's like, Oh, Julian pie, which I like wow, I didn't know this was Yeah, I guess this is really a thing

Sam Abuelsamid  4:28  
in San Diego. There you go. Alright, so with that out of the way

Roberto Baldwin  4:34  
our non con related car related rant

Sam Abuelsamid  4:37  
is Is there anything you've been driving that you can talk about this week's I

Roberto Baldwin  4:41  
you know what I drove I'm right now I'm behind the wheel, the x five plug in hybrid, but I just got it so I haven't had a real chance to drive it yet. I don't want to talk about it. I'll probably talk about talk about next week. Everything else I drove I can't talk about Yeah, nothing nothing. I I can tell you that the the x five will fit a two foot by four foot piece of MDF board in the back and and polycarb the back seats up with the back seats down it's it's pretty big so that's that's that's what I can tell you and and clear six foot long tubes those will fit back there as well that's that's there you go there's your car review people put that on the internet.

Sam Abuelsamid  5:25  
We'll get more more detail on that. Yeah. All right well I have had a you know after I got home on Thursday night from driving the newest Hyundai Evie in California. I picked up from the airport. The current Hyundai Evie which is the Kona electric which is the same thing that you and your wife own. Bought it. Yeah. And so the 2022 kona electric, the Limited is the one that I have it it comes in two trim levels, the SEL and the limited and the it's been refreshed this year. revised front end design, some other some other trim changes. And they pared it down to just the two trims the SEL on the limited and the they dropped the price on the SEL so the base model now starts at just $34,000 sticker price, assuming of course that you can find one and then the Limited has pretty much all the options available on it. You know some of the things that you miss if you if you opt for the SEL and it may not be a mess depending on where you live and what your needs are. But you know the the limited gets thing gets the the convenience package which includes the sunroof LED lamps, power driver's seat, heated and cooled front seats, leather steering, leather trim, steering wheel, the Hyundai digital key, and an assortment of other stuff, all as standard equipment. And some of those are available as options on the SEL Trump. But even even the base SEL you know, I think you have an SEL, right?

Roberto Baldwin  7:04  
Yes, it's we have most of those things we don't have like adaptive cruise control. There's like weird things you're like wait, what does it have this? No, no, it doesn't have that.

Sam Abuelsamid  7:14  
So you do you still do still get a lot of stuff. And interestingly, I was looking at the differences between the SEL and the limited. And one peculiar thing that stood out to me is you know, on the SEL the the SEL you get and standard eight inch center touchscreen for the infotainment system, which is a very good touch screens got Hyundai's interface on there, it works works really well. Hyundai does a great job sourcing their their displays. Unlike some other automakers, you know, their displays are always very clearly visible, even in direct sunlight. You know, good contrast, never, never looked dim. And so you get the eight inch screen on the SEL. And for 2022. They added wireless support for both Apple CarPlay and Android Auto so you don't actually have to plug in your phone once you've paired it. The Limited has a 10.25 inch screen it's a little bit bigger, a little wider screen, slightly different user interface graphical interface on the infotainment system, but it only has support for Wired CarPlay and Android Auto so you do have to plug in your phone button via USB to use CarPlay or Android Auto even though it's on the more expensive car with a bigger screen but you know that's a minor inconvenience. And strangely enough you also get wireless charging on the limited which you don't get on the SEL so we

Roberto Baldwin  8:44  
see wireless charging it doesn't work. Oh it's the one thing doesn't work we had a little little logo It has everything that you should work but it doesn't maybe you know I'm gonna take it I have to take the Hyundai and get it fixed. But we do we have wireless we have wireless

Sam Abuelsamid  8:57  
maybe the car chips for that maybe but I'm automakers have been disabling stuff like that. Where they don't have chips available.

Roberto Baldwin  9:05  
Maybe I'll we haven't it hasn't been an issue but it's really weird that the 10.5 just

Sam Abuelsamid  9:11  
Yeah, yeah you know and especially you know, on the wireless, the version that supports wireless Android Auto and CarPlay you know that's when you would actually want a wireless charger more because you know you just take your phone drop it down there and you don't plug anything in. You know but because it's it's projecting stuff to the screen. You know it is going to have some battery drain so it's nice to have the wireless bad you can just drop your phone on there. And you're done. But on the limited where you it comes standard with the wireless charging pad but you have to plug in your phone anyway to use it with with the system so

Roberto Baldwin  9:49  
that's okay. But it does have the it has it does have the more updated the more updated HDMI the HDMI, the more updated infotainment screen or It does. Yeah. So I wonder if there's a software issue with that, because we have like the, the older version, where you're like, Oh, it doesn't have that light, really beautiful, like, sort of splash screen home screen with, like, we don't have that. Yeah. And

Sam Abuelsamid  10:13  
you know, and of course, that that infotainment system on the limited, you, of course, do get sounds of nature,

Roberto Baldwin  10:18  
which Yeah, we don't, we don't get the coffee shop, or rain or any of that,

Sam Abuelsamid  10:22  
especially on an Eevee because they're so quiet, you know, having that might actually be very pleasant.

Roberto Baldwin  10:27  
I was looking for it, I was like, all is all excited, I'm like, Oh, we don't have it, I kind of broke my heart that that was the one thing we didn't have. And I was adaptive cruise control, oh my God, whatever. You know, it's, it's, it's wonderful when you're going on long trips, but for the most part, I only use it to a to test it and be for long drives for them when I'm just driving around, or if I or if I'm stuck in traffic, but the car is really my wife's car. So I don't typically get stuck in traffic with it. So.

Sam Abuelsamid  10:52  
So the Kona is, it's smaller than the ionic five is, you know, it's a, it's a fairly small, it's, it's quite a compact crossover. You know, but, you know, front seats are great. The back seats are definitely a little more snug. You know, somebody your height, Robbie, like might be challenged in the back seat doctor, the

Roberto Baldwin  11:14  
dog said,

Sam Abuelsamid  11:14  
yeah. You know, I mean, for me, I'm five 510 511. And I, you know, I kind of just barely fit in there, you know, when I set the front, the set the driver's seat for where I would be, I just barely fit behind that in the in the backseat. But you know, for short trips, you know, going out, you know, going out to dinner, whatever, you know, or with kids, you know, if you get younger kids, they'll be fine back there. And you got a decent amount of cargo space in the back. You know, it's it's quite fun to drive, you know, the 200 horsepower motor, you know, it's got plenty of pickup, not a problem there at all. And it's also very efficient. It's got ready to 258 miles of range. It's been pretty cold here these past several days. Although it did get warm, briefly yesterday, got up to almost 60 Yesterday morning, dropped back down to 30. Again, shorts weather. Yeah. And so, because with that cold weather, when I when I picked it up from the airport, it was fully charged, but it was showing 235 miles around shooting 32 miles, I think. But it's doing really well, you know, it's getting like 3.7 3.8 miles per kilowatt hour, which is quite good. I mean, that's, that's about as good as anything you're gonna find out there today. And in

Roberto Baldwin  12:33  
the cold, it's getting that right, yeah, and, and that's getting

Sam Abuelsamid  12:35  
out in the cold. All right, and, you know, in warm weather, where you're not using the heater and things like that, you could probably get formed for miles per kilowatt hour or more, which is, which is really quite exceptional. And, you know, for for an Eevee, that starts at $34,000, you know, to have, you know, almost 260 miles of range is, is really impressive, you know, to, you know, for pretty much any other car that's got that kind of range, the only other one that gets similar range, at that price point is the Chevy Bolt, which you can't actually get right now because they're not building them, because all the new batteries that are building are going into replacing the batteries in the bolt, the bolt, yeah. But the bolt is the closest you're going to get with that kind of range at that price point. Everything else that's out there that's got that kind of range right now at least, is well over 40 grand. So, you know, with the $7,500 tax credit on there, you can get this down to about 2727 and a half 1000 which is fantastic. I mean, it's actually a really good value as you would expect from Hyundai. So, you know, I really enjoy this. The last time I had one was a couple of years ago when it first launched before they did the refresh on it. And at that time also happened to be when we were having a polar vortex here in Michigan in February, it was actually even colder was like 17 degrees and you know, I still got, you know, over 200 miles of range out of it then even in those temperatures. So if you're if you're looking for a long range, relatively affordable Evie, and you don't need a huge amount of space yet, then the Kona Electric is really an awesome option. I think.

Roberto Baldwin  14:30  
Yeah, we we we were looking at the bolt because you get the bolt for like a nickel. If you're a Costco member every once awhile they'll have these weird late like lease options. You can get the bolt almost as cheap as when you build us to be able to get the 500 fee at 500 fee for like $100 a month. So they had like bolts for like 150 Something a month ago, about six months ago. And so we had a bolt in before it was taken away. And we were driving it and my wife like this this is why is this truck Her writing so rough. She's like this is she's like, it's not the BRC, it shouldn't be like this. And so I was like, Okay, it's because I was like, you know, we wanted to get an Eevee. And so you know, drive around with with with vehicles with her, because she'd be the main driver. And it just kept coming back to the Hyundai. And after I talked her into Hyundai to just test drive it because she had a Hyundai XL back in the back in the 90s, which wasn't Hyundai's were not something you actually Oh, no, it was it was a horrible, horrible car. So it took a little bit of convincing just to test drive it. And so finally she drove it. She's like, Oh, I really liked this and now it's it's in our driveway, but it has a flat tire she ran out there was like an accident and like a piece of metal was in the road. And she didn't see it, she ran it over now there's just giant like two inch gash in one of the tires. And it's gonna take till Tuesday to get a new tire. So it's just sort of sitting there. So she's driving the BRC to work the next few days. So she's probably, you know, doing burnouts and stuff. Who knows?

Sam Abuelsamid  16:00  
Yeah, the Oh, actually, the, the version, the Kona I have in the driveway right now is actually the Limited model. So that is the higher end model that's loaded. And that one with including the $1,185 delivery charge, which is relatively low by current standards, it's it comes to $43,840. So that's basically all in you know, I don't think there's really any options, any additional options you can get on that. So this, you know, this is this is good. The only the only thing, the only potential somewhat potential downside to this is it only has the current only has support for 75 kilowatt charging. So it's not as fast as some of the latest EVs including the the ionic five, which will charge up to 230 kilowatts, which means it won't charge up quite as fast from a DC fast charger as some other newer EVs do. But you know, for most people, that's probably fine. I went to my local neighborhood EAA station yesterday and did some charging. And in about 20 minutes, it added about, see, put in about went from 42 to 70%. Charge. And again, that was in cold weather is a little over 30 degrees. And it started off, you know, comparatively low at about 40 kilowatts. And then, you know, as the battery warmed up, it ramped up to almost 70 kilowatts charging rate. So, it'll still charge at a pretty decent pace, just not as fast as the Ionic, Ionic, the ionic five, will charge from 10 to 80%. Charge in 18 minutes. on a on a 350 kilowatt charger. So that's that's one thing to keep in mind. But other than that, there's you know, there's nothing else I would really complain about on this car.

Roberto Baldwin  18:01  
350 kilowatt, that's how fast that Kona will charge.

Sam Abuelsamid  18:06  
Yeah, won't actually charge quite fast. You can't you

Roberto Baldwin  18:09  
get like getting it's that's like when you get gigabit internet. Like I have gigabit in internet. I've never I never hit gigabit speed. But it's yeah, it's really quick.

Sam Abuelsamid  18:19  
Yeah, it's so. So that is the 2022 Hyundai Kona electric. So let's dive into a few of the the news items of the week. One of the big ones that's actually coming up. Robbie and I have both written about this, this will be coming out on excuse me before you hear this. But after recording this, and that's about some of the one of the solutions for the transition for connected vehicles from 3g to 4g. And this is, this is a problem we've had in the past with connected cars. As cellular technologies evolve. You know, vehicles tend to last a lot longer than devices like smartphones and tablets. And so they they tend to, you know, sometimes let you know, the conductivity that they have goes obsolete long before the rest of the car does. You know this first happened in 2007. With the first generation of GM OnStar vehicles, those those cars had analog cellular connectivity. And that got shut down in 2007. And so those early years of OnStar systems just went by they couldn't function anymore. It happened in the early 2010s with the 2g to 3g transition. With Nissan for example, on the leaf, you know, the first few model years of the leaf had 2g Cellular in there, and when that got shut down around 2015 or 16. Some of those cars lost connectivity when they don't want to went to 3g and 4g And now we're having to the 3g to 4g transition. We're starting in February, at&t T Mobile, Verizon will be shutting down their, their 3g networks. And so cars that have 3g radios in them, in some cases will lose connectivity. Not all of them, but some some will. And one company that is got a solution for that is Audi for at least some of their cars working with a company called Mojo. And Robbie, did you get a chance to talk to Mojo or Bosch or Audi?

Roberto Baldwin  20:33  
Yes, I have not I have not had a chance. I have just been running around like a chicken. I think the the the chance I had was while I was going to be behind the wheel of another car, unfortunately.

Sam Abuelsamid  20:44  
Okay. So I did have a call with call McDonald, who's the VP of Marketing at Mojo and Paul Malhotra from Audi. And Alan Messer, also from Mojo and somebody from Bosch. His name, unfortunately escapes me at the moment. And we talked about what they're doing. And Mojo has been around for about nine years, I think, almost 10 years. And they were developed, you know, they had OBD, two connectivity dongles that they were selling, you know, they were working through, they didn't, they never sold stuff direct to consumer, they went through other companies. And they also built out a cloud infrastructure and apps to allow you to do some do some of the kinds of things if you have built in conductivity, like OnStar, Hyundai Blue Link, some of that kind of functionality. But for older cars that don't have it built in. They they have this adapter that plugs into the OBD, two port and there's been others like this, there was used to be a company called automatic that did something similar, that they did sell direct to consumers, they've since gone out of business. And Verizon has offered a product made by Delphi that they call hum. The Mojo system was available through T Mobile, and has a 4g radio in it and stuff like that. And I think that the the T Mobile product is branded as syncope drive. Well, what they're doing with Audi is for several 100,000 Audi vehicles, they've got an adapter that they've developed, that plugs into the OBD, two port, it's got a 4g radio in it. And it's also got accelerometers in that and worked with Bosch, they've got Bush's crash detection algorithms built into the firmware of the adapter. And so it can do things like emergency call. So if you get into a crash, it can automatically call 911. For you. It's also got a Bluetooth connection to the vehicle head unit. So you can use that do the the calling from the head unit through this device. And it's got. So basically all the functionality that you currently have, with the 3g connection, the telematics connectivity that we have a 3g connection is replicated through this device, which provides the 4g connectivity.

Roberto Baldwin  23:16  
So it's magic. Yeah, well, it's not magic, but it's it's it's better than losing everything, which is what's what's what's happening as as as, as time as technology marches forward, we we sort of things like this are gonna probably continue to happen, especially with cars, because we keep them for so long. As opposed to your phone. I have a lot of old phones that I that won't connect to anything anymore, which is like, whatever. I don't use an old phone. But if I have an old car, and one of the reasons I bought the old cars, because I could do certain things that involve the internet. And now I can't do those things because they're like, Yeah, we're getting rid of 3g now. It's that's a that's a huge bummer.

Sam Abuelsamid  23:55  
Yeah. You know, I have an older car that has no conductivity at all, and I'm frankly just fine with that. Yeah,

Roberto Baldwin  24:03  
I Yeah, it's outside of the Hyundai. Everything else is just like doesn't have any connectivity. I mean, the the Jaguar, I mean, it's lucky if the climate control works. And then the the BRC is like, it has something I don't know what it has. It has a built in map so it has GPS, but it's got the worst like infotainment system on the face of the planet. Like the the BRC, the former previous generation PRC was not known for great info. But it's pretty bad, but I can plug my phone in and it'll play music. And if I really stabbed hard at the screen, I can skip to the next song.

Sam Abuelsamid  24:39  
Oh, excellent.

Roberto Baldwin  24:41  
I got that going for me.

Sam Abuelsamid  24:42  
Perfect. Yeah, so the other other manufacturers are also working on some solutions for this. Not Not, not every car with 3g radios is going to be able to be upgraded, like Toyota and Lexus have said that they're not doing anything with theirs but Some companies like Subaru are doing some over the air updates and providing some some hardware upgrades. GM is doing some stuff with some of their vehicles. So there's a bunch of 3g cars out there that will get upgrades, others won't outtie and Mojo that this one will be available. Starting in the new year, they've, they've got a website for it, which is the the product is they're calling it motion for Audi connect. And Audi connect is is Audi's branding for the, for the connectivity system for telematics. And there's a website called motion for Audi connect comm where you can go and sign up for information when it becomes available early in the new year. And then once it once it does, once it does roll out, you'll be and you can also see under which cars are eligible for this, and then that you'll be able to go to an Audi dealer and have it installed for you. And they haven't they haven't announced pricing yet. But they said it'll be competitive with other similar products, and some owners probably won't have to pay any out of pocket costs at all. So it probably won't be any more than about $200 At most, which is what some of the other stuff is. And some Some customers may get it for free.

Roberto Baldwin  26:24  
Yeah, it's I mean, and it's also you sort of look at, you know, if you have a car and it's from an automaker is like, yeah, we're not gonna do anything it, I wonder if that's gonna make you think, Well, I guess the next car is gonna be from someone else who I see is doing something so that, you know, at least, at least some sort of future proofing of what's going to happen is the for you know, 4g is gonna go away at some point, LTE is gonna go fine. You know, 5g will come and go. That's just the nature of technology, we'll have like some sort of eight G or something in the far future. But yeah, it's it's, yeah, yeah, I

Sam Abuelsamid  26:58  
mean, we're gonna start getting cars with 5g, probably sometime in 2020, to some of the first vehicles with 5g, I think the BMW i x is going to have 5g in it. And there'll be others as well. And more rolling out from 2023 and beyond. I think, you know, one, one thing that's different now that we've gone through this a couple of times, these transitions, you know, when those early transitions happened, the number of vehicles that were actually that had conductivity was still relatively small, but now that it's becoming standard on pretty much everything, you know, manufacturers actually the conversations I've had with various manufacturers they are taking they know that you know, that is something they're going to have to address in the future and so they're actually designing them to be upgradable in the future so they can more easily replace the the cellular data module take that out and put in whatever the current latest generation is at some point in the future. And so hopefully when we do that when the 4g networks get shut down and it's probably not going to be for another at least six or seven years maybe longer than that, then you know the cars are built being built today will be able to be upgraded to 5g or six g or something

Roberto Baldwin  28:18  
Hey Sam, because this was something I had to like search for and it took me too long the the Kona will charge it's up to 77 kilowatts I was at 77 kilowatts yeah just to give you a heads up so if you want to cut that whole part out

Sam Abuelsamid  28:33  
Ah okay

Roberto Baldwin  28:34  
yeah it took me like forever to find it when even I was like the auto make it I don't think just put that on there I'll just give you a time. Give us a number just give us

Sam Abuelsamid  28:44  
the power to kilowatts is not something that's usually that meaningful to most people they don't know what does it what does it really mean you know they think it takes to fill their gas tank Yeah, but

Roberto Baldwin  28:55  
I think they can if they can look at the thing and it says this many kilowatts here I can't come isn't going faster. But that cars you know, why is my doing 50 And the other ones doing 70? Yeah. Okay, let me give you

Sam Abuelsamid  29:08  
Next up, Ford. They've they've had some surprise that more success than they anticipated with the Mustang Maki. When they the the maki is built in Kwajalein, Mexico and the plant that used to build the esters. And when they they tooled up the plant last year. Yeah, last year to start production at the end of the end of 29. Together 2020. They initially tooled up, you know, anticipating about 50,000 units a year. Then, you know, it turns out sales were our demand for the car was a lot more than they expected. So they, they had already made plans to increase that in 2020 to beyond 50,000. And that's split about evenly between supply for North America. In Europe, they have another plant in China that's actually building cars to the Chinese market. And the plan had been to in 2023, that we're going to watch electric versions of the Ford Explorer and Lincoln aviator, also being built in quad on off an upgraded version of the machi platform. That's now been changed. The Aviator and explorer EVs have been pushed back, they will not be built in quite a lot. And in fact, Ford has decided they, Jim Farley, the CEO, quit tweeted out the other day, that yeah, we're going to increase production of maki to 200,000 units a year, and quite a lot. And we're going to build the aviator and explorer EVs somewhere else. So those have been pushed back into 2024. We think

Roberto Baldwin  30:53  
it's a good Evie. It's the first time I got the Maki. I was. I was surprised, because I was like, Okay, this is gonna be you know, it's gonna be fine. It was much better than I anticipated. And I think that's that's sort of, you know, I think between I think a lot of journalists, auto journalists like it. And as word of mouth sort of got out, and more and more people started dying. And they're like, this is a really good Evie. And I think I'm seeing more and more of them on the road. I drove the GT version, a few months back time doesn't have any meaning and could have been a few weeks, I'm not sure. Great, great little GT, Ford, you can sit there and fight about the name, whether it's a Mustang or not till the cows come home doesn't matter. Really, you can just say Maki. But it's yeah, no, I this is if you're if you have an Eevee. And it's doing really well. The last thing you're going to want to do is, is reduce the amount or, or just cap the amount you can sell. And it also, you know, I'm hearing from people who are looking at Tesla's model wise and they're waiting like six months a year to get their vehicle if they order it, and if Ford can just come in and be like, Hey, look at this, you like the model Y, you should try the Maki. And I think that's it. I mean, good for Ford for making something making a good car, and good for them for realizing that a lot of people want to buy it. I did have someone who sent me a message when current driver named at the end of the year, and they're like, What is this? I'm like, no, no, I completely agree with That's how good it is. So yeah, I think it's a smart business move. And it's good for the adoption of EVs.

Sam Abuelsamid  32:29  
Yeah, no, I agree. I think the the only concern I have is that because of this change, you know, they're they're pushing out the launch of the Explorer and aviator, another year to 18 months. And, you know, I think it would be it would be good for Ford, especially the Explorer, you know, I mean, that Explorer is one of their best selling, not vehicles, that isn't an F series pickup. And, you know, having an electric vehicle of that type, you know, whether, you know, whether it looks exactly like the Explorer, a three row, SUV, electric SUV, I think would be really good for Ford, you know, and having to move that production to some other plant. You know, that's great, you know, that there's, you know, hopefully enough demand to support that. But, you know, I think it would be better for Ford you know, if they were able to get that vehicle to market sooner, and maybe they will maybe maybe they'll manage to tighten up that timeline and get it out sooner than 2024

Roberto Baldwin  33:34  
I think they're they're big you know, they're battling the the ID buzz, the ID you know, the bus and they're going to be battling the Hyundai seven and I forget what the key is called. But yeah, Evie nine, Evie nine. So those are some of the other you know, those so it has to they have to try it at least beat them or get to the market at the same time as those automakers and I think they you know, I think they probably do it I think they they're moving pretty quickly with with I feel like they're moving quickly with their Evie stuff. Then GM GM had the bolt out years ago, and then just sort of like doo doo doo doo doo. And then they showed us their, you know, LTM two years ago, and it's just like, okay, come on.

Sam Abuelsamid  34:19  
Now. Well, we have we have the Hummer that's starting production now and yeah, lyric coming in the spring. And there's gonna be eventually a bunch more stuff that we haven't seen yet. Like we're, we're gonna see the the Silverado Silverado and a few weeks at CES. But even that, you know, they said, this week that, you know, that's not going to launch production till the beginning of 2023. So, you know, they're going to be, you know, nearly a year behind the F 150. Lightning in terms of launch timing for that.

Roberto Baldwin  34:49  
Yeah, they're gonna be having lightning and rivian and probably on same same amount of time as the cybertruck I'm guessing at this point. Yeah. It's yeah, it's you know, and I have right now still feels like being first is a big deal. Eventually, it's not going to really matter because it's gonna be so many on the road. But right now it still feels like you can get in there and you can get people, you know, dedicated to your brand, especially if you're a traditional automaker. And you've you know, you're trying to win back those Tesla customers and those repeat customers. You know, if you can get in there quicker rather than later. It's that's good.

Sam Abuelsamid  35:28  
And sticking with EVs, you mentioned the the VW ID buzz a minute ago, there was some news this week out of VW commercial views, their commercial vehicles division, which is actually the division of Volkswagen that is going to be responsible, responsible for producing the ID buzz van. Because they're, they're going to offer it in a couple of different variations, there's going to be a passenger version, more like the concept that we saw a few years ago. And there's also going to be a van version, panel van version for deliveries and things like that. And they're also doing an autonomous version with Argos automated driving system that they're going to use as a robo taxi. But the the news out of VW commercial vehicles this week, is that their plant in Hannover, Germany that's producing the ID buzz will be producing the ID California camper screen.

Roberto Baldwin  36:30  
Okay, so I everyone's loves, that's why these things are so expensive. Even the old brokedown ones that I find on eBay, or on Craigslist are incredibly expensive. But like a Volkswagen bus, that's a camper is just like everyone wants one. And now they're gonna have an Eevee version. And it'll be interesting to see like how that how that plays out just because you're going out in the middle of nowhere, you know charging are going to be using your car to you know, your van to to power your Gameboy or whatever. Gameboy the old your switch your suite number No, I

Sam Abuelsamid  37:04  
mean you know the the buzz has this kind of retro feel to it retro vibe to it. Maybe you want to play a red is true.

Roberto Baldwin  37:10  
I'm gonna get my Xbox 360 out and we're gonna play some some Halo. I'm gonna get my my Gameboy and play some Tetris. Yeah, no, I'm, I'm, I really, it. I so many people send me tweets, and DMS and messages and emails that are friends of mine who are not really car people about the ID buzz. So now if an ID buzz, California camper comes to United States, people are gonna lose their minds.

Sam Abuelsamid  37:40  
Yeah, I think so. You know, my friend, Mike Austin, he writes for Hemmings now used to be a car driver and Hagie he lives not far away from me here. Last year, he bought a Euro van camper. Ooh, nice blue one. And I think that was the last generation that they sold here in North America, they've continued to offer the newer versions in Europe and other parts of the world, but they haven't sold them here. So I think and VW, you know, granted, has not said if the camper is going to come to North America, although the buzz is going to be sold here. You know, so I would guess that they probably will offer the camper and it's not going to be cheap. That never have been, but I think I think it's gonna have a lot of appeal. I think a lot of people are going to like it.

Roberto Baldwin  38:31  
I think they should have. So I know that the regular California is like 106,000 are some crazy amount of money. I still think they could have sold at least 20,000 units here. It's a very expensive car. It's that's a low, it's a low unit vehicle. But I still think they probably would have sold them. Especially now. If they had decided to do it. And then especially with COVID in like Van life, the rise of Van life, I think they would have done gangbusters because there's a lot of people with a lot of money, who would love to go places, but not have to deal with like hotels and airports and you know, that sort of thing. So I think they I think they can still I think because people have been doing more road trips and have been doing more sort of Van camping. I think that there there there is now a market where maybe there wasn't before.

Sam Abuelsamid  39:18  
Yeah, you know, if they offer some features like what Vivian's doing, truck, you know, with the camp kitchen. You know, something like that. I think, you know, that would be really appealing, especially in a van as opposed to a pickup truck. I think a lot of people would would love that. So, you know, there. I remember a couple years ago, Jason torchin ski from Jalopnik did a video review of of the current generation California camper that for some reason VW had brought some over,

Roberto Baldwin  39:47  
they brought him here to drive and I they invited me and I couldn't make it and it was I was heartbreaking. And I was like But why? Why would you tease us okay, Jason

Sam Abuelsamid  39:55  
did a great review. I'll include that video in the in the show notes you You can check it out. But yeah, hopefully we do get the camper here in North America. Alright, another Eevee that is coming. Eventually, maybe, possibly, is the the savage truck, you know, which, when it was announced, you know, the same week as the Maki, you know was supposed to come out this year, maybe it'll come out next year more likely 2023. You know, from what I've heard, you know, it's supposed to use Tesla's new, larger 4680 battery cells and they're having trouble scaling up production of those. So, you know, until until those are ready. Although Elon has dropped a couple of news items about the cybertruck in his Twitter feed recently, he did say that it will not come with any color options, the only the only way you can get it is just like the DeLoreans with bare stainless steel finish. So they'll keep their costs down by not having to have a paint shop. And also that the initial version, rather than the three motor system that they originally promised, they originally SPECT out, which is basically the same powertrain that's in the Tesla Model S plaid is actually going to come with a four motor configuration, like the like the rivian, although presumably even more powerful than that. But we we also saw this week, somebody flying a drone near Tesla facility in California got some photos of what may be the second cybertruck prototype, you know, the original one that was shown, you know, that one was floating around for quite a while but never saw any additional ones besides that original concept version. Now, this new one has stuff like mirrors, and really big windshield wiper.

Roberto Baldwin  42:00  
It's so the arm is like bigger than my leg. It is It looks so big, but it's one single wiper sauces like whoosh, whoosh. And of course, you know, this, it's it's, you know, we're looking at a prototype still. But it might, you know, maybe it's the production, right, maybe they'll they'll change it out to two, maybe they'll find a way to hide it. But right now it just sits straight up. So while you're driving, as the driver right there, and your vision on the left hand side of the windshield is a giant arm just like so. Right,

Sam Abuelsamid  42:39  
right in the wheel. Let's have a blind spot anyway, for the massive eight pillars. Yeah, vehicles,

Roberto Baldwin  42:44  
because so you know, the A pillar and the windshield wipers. So, of course, these are spy shots from over, you know, it might eventually sit down in my, you know, they might have a system where they can hide it, they might have a system where there's actually two of them at some point. But right now, it's, it's something.

Sam Abuelsamid  43:02  
Yeah, well, you know, the problem is, you know, especially when this if you look at this overhead shot of the truck, you know, the the windshield is massive compared to most vehicles, because it slopes back, you know, and you look at the thing and profile, it says, basically, flat surface, from the nose, all the way up to the peak of the roof. And most of that is the windshield. So you've got this giant, basically almost square windshield. Yeah, unlike, you know, most windshields that are more rectangular, they're no wider than they are tall, this thing is actually might be taller than it is wide, or very, very close to square. Yeah. So you know, in order to get you know, coverage, you know, to the top of the windshield, from the base of the windshield, you really need something like this that stretches really long. You know, and then, you know, when you do that, you know, unless you've got, you know, if you were to put one on the other side, you know, unless you've got them alternating one sweeping, and then come back and they're going to be hitting each other, or if you have them short enough. So what you're going to end up with is like, a quarter of this windshield is not going to be swept at all. When you when you look at the arc this thing is going to go through. Yeah. And also, you know, because nobody makes windshield wiper blades that long. And, you know, probably, you know that would be, it'd be hard to make to, for that to be reliable a wiper blade this long is probably a three more than three foot long. If you were to do it in one piece, it would have to be, you know, closer, almost, maybe almost four feet long. You know, is this, what they've got is one arm with two wiper blades on it

Roberto Baldwin  44:42  
that are a little bit yeah.

Sam Abuelsamid  44:45  
So it's, it's a really peculiar design, you know, which is kind of a necessity because of the way they've designed the vehicle without, you know, really thinking about, you know, some of the, the actual functional aspects of it.

Roberto Baldwin  44:58  
Yeah, it's Yeah, it does feel like Hey, I got a great idea. Cool. Oh, shoot, we got to put like wiper blades and lights. And, you know, we have to there's all these things that you have to have to have on a car that you kind of sort of don't think about until, unless you're, you know, someone who actually designs so yeah, there's, it's, it's something it's,

Sam Abuelsamid  45:24  
it certainly is,

Roberto Baldwin  45:25  
I hope they figure out a way to keep it flat down. If it's like, if it's like that a it takes away a lot from the design of the vehicle be I mean that a pillar is already going to be a pain because the windshield is already so sloped. So now you have this giant a pillar and this thing in your way. I don't know, I'm, I'm, you know, I mean, as someone who was at the event, and I can guarantee you that 95% of the people who are there when this vehicle hit the stage, I thought it was a joke for the first 30 seconds. Yeah, we'll see.

Sam Abuelsamid  46:01  
Yeah, yeah. And the other. The other problem is, you kind of almost have to because this thing is so massive, the wiper blade, you almost have to have it parked in the vertical position instead of down. Horizontal, the width typically would be because, you know, there's no, you know, on most vehicles, you know, you have, you know, the back edge of the hood, you know, you can kind of tuck it in under the back edge of the hood. So it's out of the airstream, you know, for this thing, you don't have that you've just got this continuous surface from the short, little stubby hood into the glass. And if you parked it in a horizontal position, the aerodynamics would be terrible. Oh, yeah. So, you know, it's, it's kind of the worst of all worlds.

Roberto Baldwin  46:44  
They, they almost have to, I think they don't know what they're gonna do to be like, I'm like, well, they're because you're either have to create that little cubby, like you said, between the hood and the windshield. In some way or another in order to hide this because yeah, especially if you want this thing you know, you're we're putting, we're putting four motors gonna go? Zero to 60 in some ungodly, quick speed you did that thing is just gonna plop off. Yep. It really the, the cubby would would do less to destroy the sort of static service, and then having a big a big giant arm in your way, the whole time, I think the arm is is is is bad news for the aesthetics of this vehicle, because people are buying it for, you know, it looks like 70s The 70s idea of what the future would be like it's a 70s You know, dystopian future vehicle. And if suddenly, like the 70s dystopian vehicle just has this big goofy, like,

Sam Abuelsamid  47:49  
arm on it? Well, yeah, it's, yeah, this, this is exactly why, you know, we've always had complaints from people, you know, they see all these cool cars, on concept cars on auto show stands. It's like, why don't they ever build those stuff? Like, this is why they don't build concept cars the way they look on the Auto Show, Stan? You know, because the the design ideas, you know, always clash with reality.

Roberto Baldwin  48:15  
Yeah, there's always even when you when you with the x five, or no, I'm sorry, the exam, the, you know, they're like, Oh, this is 90%. There. But there's a lot of stuff that we have on this concept card that won't pass the muster, regulatory wise, like they had like a smoked glass in the front to put the, the the license plate behind, just for the concept. And they were very like this would never, this would Yeah, we couldn't do this in the real world. This is only for the concept vehicles. So they're very BMW was very upfront about there's, there's some things on here that we just can't do because it's easily or it's just not, you know, it looks cool, but it's just not plausible in the real world. So I think test I know Elon Musk has said, you know, everyone gets really upset when they see this, this this vehicle, you know, you see a concept vehicle and then the production vehicle comes out, it doesn't look anything like it. But I think automakers over the past decade or so, really started working on that where it's, like 10% different. It's not like, you know, drastically different like it used to be. But you I think as an automaker for Tesla, they have to sort of understand that the concept vehicle, you can you can change it a little bit. It doesn't have to look exactly like the thing. You drove up on stage and put a hole in this. It can it can change a little. Yeah. For the benefit of everyone who wants to buy it.

Sam Abuelsamid  49:33  
Okay, let's stick with Elon for a minute. One of the things going on in Congress right now is his battle over the bill back better act, which includes changes to the Eevee incentive program that we've had since 2010. You know, the current program allows for a federal tax credit of up to $7,500 on EVs and the the amount depends on the size To the battery. So once you get above 16 kilowatt hour battery pack, it you're maxed out at that $7,500. And then below that it's it's scaled based on the size of the pack. And it's been limited to the first 200,000 sales for a manufacturer, once they get past 200,000, they phase it out, Tesla and General Motors have already phased out, they're no longer have any tax credits available, the new program will lift that 200,000 cap, so they'll be able to get incentives again, they're still $7,500 is the base tax credit. But to get that, it's, you now have to have a minimum of 40 kilowatt hour battery pack, which you know, is fine, you know, that's for modern EVs, that's kind of the the bottom end, you know, the base Nissan LEAF has a 40 kilowatt hour pack. So that would get the $7,500. And everything else is pretty much larger than that now, plug in hybrids are still eligible, but they also have to hit that 40 kilowatt hour level. And they're limited to, to get tax credit, they can't have a gas tank of more than two and a half gallons. So basically, it's more like, you know, what BMW did with the i three range extender, where it's really only for emergency use is not for, you know, your daily driving around, like, like the way most plug in hybrids are probably used. And then in addition to the 7500, they've added a couple of other things, there's $4,500, additional, it's available for EVs that are built in US plants with Union union labor, which basically means anything, you know, built by Ford, General Motors are still Lantis in the US. And no other vehicles right now would be eligible for that, including Tesla, they would be limited to the $7,500. And then there's another 500 for cars with us built batteries. So conceivably, Tesla and some other manufacturers could get that $500, but not the 4500. So in an interview earlier this week, with the Wall Street Journal with Joanna Stern, the Wall Street Journal, Elon said, you know, we should just get rid of incentives entirely. We don't need them anymore. We've got too much of a budget deficit. You know, and, you know, now that, you know, Tesla's got a huge lead in the Evie market. You know, we took advantage of the incentives built up our market share, and we want to pull up the ladder behind us nobody else get any incentives. What do you think

Roberto Baldwin  52:43  
it is? It is insane that he would that that is someone who's who's gotten a lot of support from both federal and state government, that he would we don't need those anymore. And the the idea that I think he's he's upset about the the the union thing, which is weird, because, I mean, people have been trying to unionize a Tesla for a while. And, you know, that's always that that was a big issue a few years ago. And of course, you know, as most companies, they don't want a union, they don't want collective bargaining. They don't want solidarity within their, within the employer ranks in order to help you know, everyone get a fair shake on the floor. So but, you know, that's, that's, I'm a big supporter of unions, I think, more people should be able to, to collectively bargain with their bosses who are making a lot of money. The gap between the average employee and the CEOs pay is sort of ridiculous. And how much money Elon is worth, is is for him to like, sort of like, oh, you know, especially after he got all these, you know, he didn't like what we paid back our loans. Yeah, but you got the low.

Sam Abuelsamid  53:54  
Yeah, that's where you get the loans. And, you know, almost all of whatever profit they've recorded in the last several years, has come not from actually building cars, but from selling the ZEV tax credits to other manufacturers that haven't been able to sell as many EVs as Tesla has. Yeah, and that's another subsidy. He didn't he didn't mention that particular subsidy, whether that should go away. I mean, if you're going to get rid of the tax credits, you should also get rid of that that ability to sell the credits as well. Yeah,

Roberto Baldwin  54:23  
so it's it's it's sort of it's extremely hypocritical of him to sort of like well we're doing fine yeah, yeah, you're doing fine because you because you be rebuilt on the back of the US tax paper. And you know, and that's that's fine. If that's it, that's what we need to to make the world not as polluted as it was so people so fewer fewer kids are born you know are raised and end up getting asthma because they live near you know, freeways or whatnot. Cool. Yeah, that's fine. You know, the reason we have a government is to protect it's to protect the the populace and protecting the populace in means reducing carbon emissions. And it's it's sort of insane, especially when he's like, Well, I think there was a tweet about how well Tesla employees, they make a lot of money. And but yeah, last Christmas, there was a email out there, they were trying to push sales or push production. And part of that push was asking people to volunteer, for employees to volunteer, not get paid between Christmas and New Years to help push production to help move cars around. And there's been times where people have been told, Oh, by the way, we're shutting down your line for a few weeks, you'll get paid this much. But these other weeks, I don't know, figure it out, figure out if you can pick up some extra shifts. If he had a union, that wouldn't be? Yeah, the idea that you're like, your boss just sends you an email and says, Oh, by the way, in three weeks, you're not we don't need you at work. And you can get a little bit of money, but not enough money for that entire time that you're off. That's that's that's just, that's that's really that's, that's a company that needs a union. That's a company that needs someone who's looking out for those employees. And and Tesla has been very anti that. And if, again, if that stuff wasn't happening, if everyone had, you know, there wasn't lawsuits against Tesla for for racism, or misogyny, maybe it and they hadn't been built on the back of government subsidies, you could say or look at his tweets and be like, alright, well, at least he's on on bread. But no, no, this is insanely hypocritical for him.

Sam Abuelsamid  56:30  
Yeah. And, you know, the reality is that most likely, I mean, this bill has been passed by the House, but it has not passed through the Senate yet. And I think that there's a strong probability that the that $4,500 component, at least, you know, for union built, EVS may get cut from the bill. I have a hard time believing that the Senate, especially, you know, given that it's more or less 5050 is going to pass that version of it. You know, because there's also a lot of pressure not just from Tesla, but from other manufacturers, you know, from pretty much everybody that isn't GM Ford or elantas, you know, is opposed to that part of the the program, because none of the you know, whether it's, you know, Hyundai Kia, Toyota, you know, Toyota, and Honda have a lot of plants in North America, including in the US, none of which are unionized BMW, and others, none of them like that, because they would all lose out on the potential to get that, that incentive, they, you know, they can get the 7500, but they can't get the that $4,500 components. So, I think that there's a good chance that that's probably going to get cut from the bill anyway.

Roberto Baldwin  57:47  
Yeah. And it's a bummer. But I also think that the 200,000 cap was sort of unfair, it Yeah, it punished Tesla and GM for doing a good job. Yeah, like, Hey, good job, we're not going to help you anymore, which was sort of unfair, like I could get my Hyundai. Or if you get, you know, if you went and bought an extra MX 30 from Mazda, you're going to get tax credit losses waited forever, if you get you know, you get a soul tear from Subaru, you get a tax credit, but because they just waited for a long time to do this. Whereas, you know, GM and Tesla were like, Oh, we're on the forefront where we're trying to make the world a better place, you know, either for because they care about humans, or they care about profit or whatever. It's sort of sort of like, oh, by the way, is no more for you.

Sam Abuelsamid  58:33  
Well, I mean, the original rationale there was, you know, they figured it, you know, once once man that well, first of all, they figured that manufacturers would hit that 200,000 a lot sooner than than they did. And they figured, okay, but by the time you know, every manufacturer is selling 200,000 EVs, you'll have enough critical mass, you know, that you you won't have to keep incentivizing them, you know that people will buy EVs regardless. And that just turned out not to be the case. Most manufacturers didn't, didn't sell EVs as aggressively as as certainly as Tesla. And to a far lesser degree, you know, GM did. And they, in the, they, you know, the even even after that they didn't, you know, there wasn't enough momentum yet. I mean, that's starting to happen now, as we start to get a lot more different EVs in the marketplace, especially in coming in 2022. But it's the we just never had enough. Not quite enough momentum to really have it have sales, keep going without incentives.

Roberto Baldwin  59:41  
Yeah, I think they felt like all the automakers would hit that 200,000 credit limit around the same time. And the reality is really just to and then everyone else was just sort of lagging behind.

Sam Abuelsamid  59:52  
Yeah. All right. Next up, let's see. I think That's it. Yeah, that's that's all the stories know, we've got a few listener questions. Start off with Andrew Pappas said How has the part shortage slowing car manufacturing affected? The company's not experiencing shortages? Are the car makers, warehousing parts? Are they canceling orders? Where else? Is there fallout in the supply chain? Yeah, it varies. You know, I mean, the the biggest issue for automakers has obviously been on semiconductors on ships. And in some cases, some manufacturers, most notably Toyota, actually did have some bigger stockpiles of chips that they got early on. And that reduced their disruption, although now they're starting to run out of those parts. And, and they're, you know, they're experiencing more disruptions now than they did earlier on. So it varies, it varies across the industry, but most of them are being impacted to some degree or another. Now, you know, others, you know, they're, they've found ways around it by, you know, eliminating the availability of certain features like wireless charging pads supercruise, and heated seats and touchscreens, touch screens, yeah, BMW is, you know, so they're, they're taking, they're leaving out features where they think they can get away with it, or where, you know, they can perhaps say, Look, we're gonna leave this out now. So we can ship the cars. And we will, you know, go back and retrofit your car next year, whenever we get the parts, and you'll get that feature back. So, you know, it's, it's kind of it's kind of a mixed bag, but pretty much everybody's being impacted to some degree or another.

Roberto Baldwin  1:01:51  
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I mean, it's tough, especially trying to buy a car. I just keep telling people don't buy a car, if you don't have to right now, just because they're so expensive. I mean, I saw the markup of a rav4 Prime was like, 10, when we were looking for a car, there were $10,000. And a Toyota dealership that's in the Bay Area that told me at one point, they don't ever markup, there's $7,000 for a rav4 Prime, which, you know, the rav4 prime was always going to be in short supply the first year they already they said before the shortage that they were going to be in short supply. So now with the shortage going on, it's it's yeah, it's tough. And that's from a again, and that's from a company that was you know, they had some saved up. So yeah, it's it's yeah, when it's your only as quick as your slowest supplier, which is sort of, which is a bummer for a lot of these automakers and for people who need you know, cars and now they're buying used cars and which is, you know, I'm a big fan of buying a used car because you're keeping that vehicle on the road and it's less expensive, but some people need a nuke, some people want the, the security of a new vehicle that because they have to get to work every day and, and I completely understand that.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:02:55  
Yeah, I feel bad. Somebody in my neighborhood. This morning, when I was walking my dog, I noticed we had a big windstorm that came through yesterday. 6065 mile an hour gusts and there was a big chunk of tree next to the tree next to their driveway. That was sitting across the roof of their Ford Taurus this morning. For Taurus. Yeah, like early 2000, early 2010. Wow. And crushed basically crushed the roof. So you know, that thing's gonna be a write off, unfortunately.

Roberto Baldwin  1:03:30  
That you don't see I did tours a number one selling car in America for a while. But I don't they were like they were pretty disposable. You don't see a lot of Ford Taurus.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:03:40  
This is the latest the last generation Yes, not, not the earlier ones.

Roberto Baldwin  1:03:43  
That's a bummer, though. When you have a car that you're like, hey, this is working for us. It's us. You're the gravy yours. You're just fixing little things here and there, if you're lucky. And then to have that happen. That's

Sam Abuelsamid  1:03:55  
so they're gonna have to go find something, unfortunately. All right. Next one, Jakob Nimoy. We had a fairly long email last week. This one is just slightly less verbose, but try and get through it. So this is a continuation of the discussion we had about keyless entry and, and, you know, digital keys and, and key fobs and so on. So is it folks happy to hear my long rant got airtime in the most recent episode. So thank you for that. I promised this time is I promise this is brief this time. Well, clearly he wrote that before he finished the email. First off, everyone on the show was right. You all know what's the best setup for yourself. I don't see keys completely going away. And any decently secure system needs some kind of physical object that you can show your phone app. Yes, this is my car. This is also providing a great way to handoff custody of a vehicle to someone without handing off the whole vehicle. A few things. So to be very clear, the phone should connect directly to the car with no cloud in between. I'm actually one One of those people who works on the cloud all day long, and I refuse to use any hardware that can't talk directly to my phone at home. The internet is just not reliable for this. This is actually a requirement of Apple's HomeKit protocol. I think we'll see. I think we'll see all the smart hardware vendors switch to handling communication entirely locally within the next five years, Everyone is sick of waiting three seconds for lights to turn on. Also, regarding iPhones, all your personal data is encrypted on device and cannot be unlocked without your passcode. When you wipe your phone via the Settings app, the device actually just destroys the intermediate encryption keys. So even with your passcode that encrypted data is unreadable. I actually recommend using this feature after backing up your phone or computer before sending your expensive gizmo for service and repair to make sure not even Apple employees can access your data on your phone. Android supports similar things but I'm fuzzy on the details. Keyless entry with a phone isn't something everyone will use, but it does. But if it does work correctly, it enables folks who might have to decide between carrying a key or a phone with them. Even if a phone is bigger than a key fob. There are folks not me these people think in ways foreign to me who care about carrying the fewest things possible. And anything that gets them closer to minimalism is desirable. Lastly, we have the active brace activity bracelet on our Range Rover. And let's just say I totally understand these things fail and hard and I've nearly stranded my family that way. This future is totally not here. Personally, I wish everyone would do the keypad feature for it has had for years.

Roberto Baldwin  1:06:35  
Those are all correct as someone who used to cover both InfoSec and home like the the connected home and I just the Internet of Things. That is all correct information. So Yakov knows his stuff. And yeah, yeah, the the secure the secure elements on your phone should connect to the secure elements in your car and not have to deal with the cloud. But I don't think automakers are quite there yet. I think they're still I think they still they they're excited about the cloud. You know, like ever like other people were like couple years ago, so like, yeah, everything can just go to the cloud, right? Yeah, everything doesn't need to go to the cloud. Yeah. And that Range Rover bracelet. I tried it once they sent me a Range Rover and I just cannot get it to work. Which is that's and then that right there. You're like, oh my gosh, especially if you're if you're someone who likes to do some sort of I like to surf. A modern key is a bad scene for surfing. Because it's you know, it's a little computer in your pocket. Essentially. It's a tiny little, you know, one job computer in your pocket and you get it wet. And now you're stuck at the beach in a wetsuit with a surfboard. And you're like, oh, no, my phones in that car. Yeah. And yeah, the the keypad I don't we we need more keep my a friend of mine moved his keypad office Bronco, he took it off one spot and put it somewhere else. I can do that. Yeah, they just they're just they're not like attached to wires are not wired, it's wireless. You just pull it you can pull it off, put it somewhere else. And that would be awesome. If you could do that with other cars. Like I think more cars should have keypads like the Ford, where you can just like take it and maybe put it like you know in a little if you don't Well, if your gas cap or the door doesn't require the car to be unlocked. You could put in there. If you could put it. You could put it maybe under the little cubby of the trunk. Yeah, there's always, there's always places you could sort of sort of stash it. And that way it cleans up the aesthetic of the car. But you're still able to get into the car when you don't have your key because you'd like boop boop, boop. That's just, yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:08:41  
yeah. On Lincoln's, they actually use a capacitive touchpad that's built into the pillar, so that when it's off, you don't see it at all. When you when you touch the pillow. Yeah. Then it lights up. And you can tap the numbers. So that that way they get a cleaner look, but you still have the same functionality.

Roberto Baldwin  1:09:01  
Yeah, see more little buttons that I can just push. Yeah, I mean, it's also I mean, that's also an InfoSec thing, because then we could just stand there you and see it and then wait to the next time you show up to the beach and then steal your stuff. But yeah, everything's the world's a crazy place.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:09:20  
All right. Last one is from Brianna Wu. And, clearly, you know, Brianna has got a little too much time and money on her hands about buying a Ferrari, California, but worried about reliability. Are they really as bad as the reputation that and I just think they're beautiful. So I have not personally owned a Ferrari. At least not a full size functional one. I've got a number of you know, all wheel size Ferraris. But have you heard anything about the reliability of the California

Roberto Baldwin  1:09:57  
I'm not the California in general I think that's because just because they're such a nice automaker, but I do know that if you need any work done to a Ferrari be prepared to wait a long time, I was doing an accurate NSX video shoot and a gentleman showed up on his very expensive bicycle. And he said, Oh, yeah, I have a Ferrari. And he's like, and we were sort of talking about the difference between Ferrari and Acura. I'm like, Yeah, this you can just take to the Acura dealership. There's, they're everywhere. And he was like, yeah, it's gonna take me four months to get my get an oil change on my Ferrari. And my friend's Ferrari broke, and they had to send it back to Italy, which is going to take 18 months for that to happen. And so you, you're sort of like, okay, well. It's a Ferrari, it's Italian. Italians make beautiful cars. But then there's also, you know, the and I hate that to say that there's the reputation of Italian cars not being as sturdy as, say, a Porsche 911, which brianna is a huge fan of I think I think they ran is a experience with her Porsches is, is is not going to be the same as her experience with a Ferrari, California. I think for again, Ferrari, California is beautiful and wonderful. But I think if you if you can afford a Ferrari, California, you have to be able to afford to Ferrari California's I think that's that's how,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:11:20  
if you have a Ferrari, California and four Porsches, then you know, you've pretty much got it covered, you're still going to have something, something that you can drive every day. That's true.

Roberto Baldwin  1:11:28  
That's true. So while the Ferraris in the shop or in your garage, then you still have your your Porsches. So yeah,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:11:34  
you know, it sounds like you know, it's kind of like when you go to the dentist, you know, for your your biannual cleaning, or semi annual semi annual cleaning. You know, usually, you know, after they finished cleaning your teeth, and you have your checkup and everything, you know, then they said you want to schedule, go ahead and schedule your next appointment. So same thing when you get an oil change with your Ferrari, you get an oil change, and then you meet at the at the time before you drive away, you schedule your next oil change so that you know by the time it's time for that you're good to go.

Roberto Baldwin  1:12:03  
I just like the idea of someone I know having a Ferrari, California also. So now I'm just gonna tell Brando, you should totally buy it. Because I want to say I have a friend who owns a property. There you go there and a bunch of nine elevens. And but yeah, it's it's definitely if you can afford one you should be, I think Ferraris in general as Ferrari any supercar outside of like a Porsche. If you can afford one, you should be able to if you want to buy one, you should be able to afford two of them. Because it's going to be

Sam Abuelsamid  1:12:31  
well, I mean, chances are, you know, even even if you even if you don't have to have the same thing, if you can afford something like that, chances are you've got other vehicles. Yeah, choose from. So there's always something available in the garage to drive.

Roberto Baldwin  1:12:46  
Like, oh, god, he's don't just own a Yeah, like a 60 other car.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:12:50  
And you know, it's going, you know, going back to 2007. When I first interviewed Martin Eberhard, the actual founder of Tesla. You know, we were talking about, you know, the rationale for doing a sports car, the original Tesla Roadster before something somewhat more mainstream. And you know, that that was the argument he made is that, you know, doing an expensive premium car like that, you know, the customers that can afford to buy a car like that, and are willing to buy a car like that tend to be more tolerant of the the foibles of these kinds of expensive cars. And they usually don't have just one car, they usually have multiple cars. So even if it has some issues and has to spend some time in the shop, they those those customers are have a level of tolerance that ordinary consumers like you and I don't have. And so you know, the same thing, I think is still very much true today.

Roberto Baldwin  1:13:47  
Yeah, yeah. I think people who bought the first generation model s were totally like, they're very much first adopters and wanted to be on the cutting edge. But they, those people were more tolerant of any sort of issues that they would have with that vehicle versus the the person buying a model

Sam Abuelsamid  1:14:01  
three. Yeah. All right. That's almost everything we have for this week. I also in like, ongoing series of interviews that I did at the LA Auto Show. The latest one is with Rob Villa Povich who's the director of product planning for Jaguar Land Rover, North America, Robin, I sat in the, in the back of one of the brand new fifth generation Range Rovers on the show floor and had a conversation about both about the new Range Rover as well as kind of where Jaguar Land Rover is going over the next 510 years. With Jaguar going to be transitioning to all electric from 2025. What Range Rover or the Land Rover brand including Range Rover and Land Rover vehicles is doing. So stick around to listen to that some good stuff in there. And we'll talk to you next week with Nicole and we'll talk all about the Hyundai ionic five

Roberto Baldwin  1:14:58  
is going to be ionic five tastic But it's gonna be fun. And pie. We'll talk more about pie.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:15:04  
Yeah, absolutely. All right, bye. Bye. So let's start off with discussion of this vehicle, new Range Rover, this is what fifth

Rob Filipovic  1:15:15  
or sixth generation this generation 50 years of Range Rovers.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:15:19  
Yeah, it's, it's amazing how the design has evolved. And yet you look at it and you still see Range Rover. And this thing you look at, it's instantly recognizable as a Range Rover. So what what's the overall strategic direction with with Ranger or with this with this particular model? What What, what are you trying to achieve with us? And how are you evolving the brand? Yeah,

Rob Filipovic  1:15:47  
so for us, the key with Range Rover, obviously, is the leader in luxury SUV, for our views, it was the original and it needs to kind of continue to evolve to continue to stay in that leadership role. And so from from the infancy of this product, and the vehicle, it really was about kind of, how do we just continue that evolution? And that's where you see that instead of recognizability? You'll see a lot of I think, familiarity on the exterior and interior, but it's equally how do we just keep making it better? And that is in every single aspect.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:16:25  
So obviously, you know, technology is becoming increasingly important part of all vehicles moving towards this idea of the software defined vehicle. How was that? Is that something that you're fitting into Range Rover now? And how how's that working out?

Rob Filipovic  1:16:43  
Yeah, it absolutely is. And there's multi faceted, of course. So we have our Pivi Pro System, which we launched in the defender, including including the full software over the air capability. Now what we're doing is kind of continuing to evolve that and make it even better. So with Range Rover we're introducing wireless CarPlay, wireless Android Auto, Sirius XM 360 l, as well as a full Alexa integration. And that's a full integration where you can just log into your account in the vehicle and it's fully connected to your account and everything else you have connected to that account as well from home lighting to garages to anything else you have at home.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:17:25  
And in the the premium SUV utility whatever term you want to use for Well, I guess first of all, for Land Rover, you consider it as an SUV or a sport activity vehicle. What is what is your terminology, your preferred terminology

Rob Filipovic  1:17:43  
is absolutely an SUV. Okay.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:17:46  
So in the premium SUV segment is getting increasingly crowded with both existing legacy brands moving up into the segment like Jeep with the wagoneer, grand wagoneer really trying to challenge Range Rover and then newcomers coming in particularly from the electrification side with brands like rivian listed doesn't have their SUV yet, but they will next year. How how do you keep Range Rover particular competitive with all of these challengers?

Rob Filipovic  1:18:23  
The key for us really is that leadership position and continuing to evolve and improve the overall formula. And so it's that sign sorry about that. So I think for us, it really is that end of maintaining that leadership position and keep it continuing to push it further. And I think competition is always a good thing keeps you on this keeps you getting better all the time. And so for us, I think it's that side of how do we stay that one step ahead and continue to be that kind of that that pinnacle of SCB luxury and refinement and capability as well when it comes even to off roading. So I think for us we we've kind of really established Range Rover has that ultimate expression of a luxury SUV, and we just need to continue to push it forward.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:19:19  
Do you do you see, especially the new challengers being is because their their focus is really on the many cases on the technology side in addition to electrification. How do you see them being a significant threat to the brand?

Rob Filipovic  1:19:42  
Obviously, there's there's threats all over the place from some of the incumbent OEMs to some of the new generation of brands. Like for us it again, it's that side of obviously kind of established an extremely loyal customer base. I think it's how do we think continue to keep them happy and satisfied not only from the vehicle itself, but also from the overall customer experience we give them on a day to day basis, both through the art ourselves as well as the fantastic retail franchise network that we have out there taking care of people. So I think it's, for us, the competition's always healthy, and it'll just keep making us get better and better, and make that customer experience for us keep keep on getting better and better as well.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:20:27  
So let's step back from Range Rover a little bit to Jaguar Land Rover as a whole. And how, how the strategy for the company is evolving. Launch the I pace a couple of years ago, had some success, some degree of success. And there was supposed to be an electric xj, which unfortunately got cancelled. How How does JLR move forward? What's what's JL RS place in the world? In 2025 2030?

Rob Filipovic  1:20:59  
Yeah, so I think, obviously, two brands, two different strategies going forward. Everything obviously exists under this reimagine strategy that we've announced. As it relates to Jaguar, that's, that's an all electric future. So starting in 2025, we will be all electric on the Jaguar brand. Along with that, we'll be taking the brand back up market as well. So really establishing it as kind of a in completely new experience. And really kind of a new generation of Jaguar. I think that's kind of learns from the past in terms of some of the greatest successes that tiger has. But it's also completely future thinking. So not, not using the history to kind of limit ourselves, but kind of being more inspired by and kind of moving in a new direction for the brand that's ready for the future.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:21:50  
The Jaguar brand is has been fascinating to watch over the years, for a long time. And it was this very traditional British luxury, mixed with very impressive performance and comfort. Kind of a blend of a lot of things, you know, you got elements, especially on the comfort side, you got elements you didn't get from, say, you know, the German premium brands. And then a few years ago, you know, the brand lowered prices, tried to get a little more value in the brand. Did that. Is that not worked out? And you mentioned going back more more upmarket? How far market these proceed taking the Jaguar brand.

Rob Filipovic  1:22:35  
Yeah, it's certainly not that it didn't work out. I think it was. It was a time period. I think we're, for us, it certainly brought a lot of conquest that brought a lot of new people into the brand, which was key for us. It was also at a time when the industry was going through a tremendous transition from sedans and coupes and convertibles into crossovers and SUVs. And so I think for us, it was kind of a good period of time where we had some good success with appetite, FPS obviously became our best seller. So it's been a very good kind of informative period. Like now it's kind of how do we get the brand ready for the next decade and beyond. And that's kind of where it's looking at kind of where we can kind of take that brand again, in different direction. And kind of have it ready for the future. And I think that's kind of the key for jag is that it has kind of been constantly evolving over time. And I think kind of there's certainly been some ups and downs in terms of some of the historic products. But I think it's kind of let's just keep looking forward in terms of what we think and what we know, from consumers in terms of what they want out of a Jaguar brand in the future.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:23:43  
Is there still a place for cars in the Jaguar brand of 2025? Or is it all some flavor of utility?

Rob Filipovic  1:23:49  
No, I think on the whole there's room for all shapes of vehicles. And I think that's the absolute beauty of the especially the North American market, even a global market is not everyone is looking for the exact same thing. And kind of obviously, car demand has gone has been reduced. But there's still plenty of people out there buying cars. And just as there's plenty of people buying crossovers and SUVs and pickup trucks and everything else. So I think it's the beauty of that diversity and what people want. And then what's within all of that diversity. What are the right portions of the market? We want to go after?

Sam Abuelsamid  1:24:29  
What What kind of timeframe do you see for bringing starting to bring these new EVs to the Jaguar brand? Is that something in the next 12 months? You know, maybe 2324 timeframe?

Rob Filipovic  1:24:40  
No, so for the for the Jaguar, it'll be 2025. Okay,

Sam Abuelsamid  1:24:44  
2025 year all electric that will present we will slowly start seeing some of the models arriving in the years leading up to that. No, it'll be that time frame. Okay. So kind of what we see today continuing to evolve for the next few years.

Rob Filipovic  1:24:58  
Yeah, and even today We'll continue to improve the current lineup. And I think as we've been doing over the last few years, in terms of the major updates we did on the X F and the F pace, IPS, we continue to improve the overall I think, fit finish value experience that you have out of that vehicle as well. And then even F type just this this year, we're launching the P 450. V eight version as a replacement to both the four and the six cylinder and it's in the funding performance of that vehicle. So I think for us, it's not about kind of not just waiting, it's really about how do we continue to improve the existing lineup, bring more fans into the brand, and then kind of evolve and go into the new generation of Jaguar from there

Sam Abuelsamid  1:25:43  
for those electric vehicles? Is do you see those platforms being developed internally, a JLR, or looking at partnerships to share the development costs and share componentry especially with with Evie, as you get into EVs. One of the challenges is it's harder to distinguish and get product differentiation with electric propulsion, compared to engines, you know, that can sound and feel different. Do you see that as as a way to help spread out some of those costs?

Rob Filipovic  1:26:21  
Yes, I think there's multiple pieces there. I think one, obviously, we're big advocates of partnership. So I can't comment on kind of, on the future Jags won't be a part through a partnership, what will be internally developed. But obviously, BMW as an example, we have a relationship and a partnership with but we're very kind of focused on who are the right partners, what are the right things to do in house, and kind of being able to bring together the best minds to bring out the best product at the end of the day. So that really is the focal point for us of having that right blend of partnership development as well as kind of the right supply chain, and then having the right development in house as well. On the Eevee side now, I think what's interesting there is, there's still a tremendous amount of opportunity in terms of how you even tune those evening songs, that you can create very distinct driving capabilities and very distinct driving experiences as well. And I think that's that next great piece that'll start to evolve, which is how you tune those things different differently to get kind of whether it's how the vehicle, the tip in the regeneration, again, all the handling dynamics, the steering feel. So I think there's still a huge amount of bandwidth in terms of how you can equally change the way that an Eevee can feel, depending on the product line and the brand. The

Sam Abuelsamid  1:27:44  
jail are going to continue to develop the in house Ingenium engine lineup or you've already looked for this vehicle you've switched to a BMW based VT engine. Are you going to transition across your your engine lineup to BMW sourced engines going forward?

Rob Filipovic  1:28:03  
No, no, no plan on that. They were extremely happy with our in genuine lineup between the four and six cylinders. And kind of what we've been able to do with those the refinement, performance and fuel efficiency that they brought, like on the V eight side, we saw great opportunity to get in there to partner with BMW, they had a fantastic engine to start with. And then from there, we were able to kind of take it in our own direction and build our own requirements as well where it's able to take even more abuse, whether it be related to our curb strike test, the additional changes that were made to it so that it can in this vehicle, wade through up to three feet of water. So there's a lot of things that we do still even within those partnerships to make sure that it really is a Land Rover engine and Land Rover execution at the end of the day.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:28:52  
Electrification on the Land Rover side of the business, you got mild hybrid. That's the standard now right on all your powertrain all your

Rob Filipovic  1:29:02  
or it's a mixture. So there were p 300. And Jenny and four cylinders at mile hybrid, as well as our Inline sixes. So we have that and then we have plug in hybrid, as well as a completely updated plug in hybrid that's going to be coming in this new Range Rover. And then from there will will introduce full fully electrified Range Rover in 2024.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:29:26  
Okay, so that's when we will see the first full battery electric motor. Alright, and is there a timeframe for taking the Land Rover? Brand vehicles? All electric, Jaguar for 2025. The rest of the What's the timeframe?

Rob Filipovic  1:29:44  
Yeah, not not a specific timeframe to go fully electric and electric only. But starting in 2024 will have the full electric range rover and and with within the kind of four years five years that followed that. We'll have another six fully electrified Land Rovers within the brain. So it's definitely going to be kind of a major expansion of electrification within the Landrover brand as well.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:30:07  
So that 2024 That's based on this vehicle here. Yep, absolutely. All right. See what else that was most well to talk about anything else with with JLR that people should be thinking about as far as how how the the brands and the vehicles are going to evolve, or what you want to do with these going forward?

Rob Filipovic  1:30:30  
Yeah, I think fundamental for us is staying true to the brand. Landrover obviously, the most important thing for us is that combination of luxury and capability. And that's that side of it's kind of continuing to improve and enhance it, we can really push it further, whether it be with the Range Rover that we're in now, or the defender that we launched last year, and making sure that we have the right kind of vehicles out there for an extremely diverse group of consumers. And so for us to be how we push those vehicles further and further every single time. Every single year.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:31:09  
I guess one last area, when asked about motor sports, Jaguar has a long history of involvement in motor sports, and going back many decades, and for the last split six years or so, you've been a key participant in Formula E. Do you see expanding that as electric motor sports continues to expand? We've got electric GT coming various other electric formula coming? Do you see a potential for expansion of the Jaguar brand into some other segments of motor sports or or or for Range Rover you know, maybe something like extreme e. For for the Range Rover brand? Is that something that might get in the car at some point?

Rob Filipovic  1:31:54  
Nothing at the moment, focus for us continues to be on Formula E on the on the Jaguar side of the business and continuing to kind of improve and push ourselves further there. I think there's some other great forums that are building out there. You mentioned the extremely as one, but at the moment, we don't have any plans for that.

Sam Abuelsamid  1:32:14  
Alright, great. Thank you very much, Rob.

Unknown Speaker  1:32:15  
No, thank you.