Sam Abuelsamid 0:00 Coming up on episode 257 wheel bearings got the Audi e Tron GT, the Ford Expedition Max the new Chevy Colorado, the Cadillacs elastic showcar new Evie tax incentives and more coming up next this is episode 257 of wheel bearings. I am Sam Abuelsamid from Guidehouse insights. Nicole Wakelin 0:26 I am Nicole Wakelin from the FAST Women podcast. Roberto Baldwin 0:30 I am Roberto Baldwin from Ars Technica. Sam Abuelsamid 0:34 And I am coming to you today from the luxurious Days Inn and Suites and Traverse City Michigan can be at the Center for Automotive Research is management briefing seminar so the next couple of days, which is always an interesting event. But Nicole Yeah, you that you had a busy weekend and what were you driving? Roberto Baldwin 0:57 Way, way, way, way way before it starts out? When you when you did your little intro Sam, it sounded like you're about to say I'm gonna be at the dais in Community Center. We're going to be doing a 30 minute set with my good friend Patton Oswald. It did sound a little bit like you're on your your comedy short tour. I'm sorry. Did ruin the entire show? It did sound like you're about to tell us about your your upcoming comedy special. That's been in Nevada. Nicole Wakelin 1:29 Okay, enough about Sam and his comedy specials. So yes, I had an adventure last weekend I actually had I when I say the Wakelin clan, I mean all of us. It was my husband. And I my two daughters, my oldest daughter's boyfriend. The two of them flew in from Milwaukee, my brother lon his wife, niece, nephew and a girlfriend. So 10 of us all together in a giant Airbnb up in the White Mountains in New Hampshire, which is about a two hour two and a half hour drive north. So we wanted to have enough room for five grownups in our car, which we did. We also had to have the stuff for five people, copious amounts of food and a couple bottles of wine. And we also brought in his little teeny, it's only a couple bottles here, oh, more than a couple bottles. And we brought my dog who was like the size of a small cat. And we just had him in his little carrier. So even a little spot for dog on the way up there. So all of us, and I said, Hey, can I get a car that could fit all of us? And they said, Sure. And they gave me a Ford Expedition max. So it was gigantic. And my husband actually had the gall to say to me if you grow food in that, like did you look out the window? Did you see how big the car they just left in my driveway? He's like, Oh, that's pretty big. It was huge. So not only did we all fit in it, we've put all of our stuff in it. And it still didn't even look close to full. It looked like it was half empty. We've got like little carry on bags from my daughter and her boyfriend coming from Milwaukee, our little tote bags, all this stuff. So it was I felt like it was the perfect test case for like, what do you do with a gigantic SUV? You put as many people as you can fit in the family dog go in his carrier and all of your stuff. It carried us all up there. It was super comfortable. It was super easy to drive. Before you ask Sam because you already asked and I wrote it down in my notes. I got 18.3 miles per gallon. And the lane. Yeah, and the average is supposed to be supposed to be 16 City 22 highway 18 combined. So it was right on that. And although I did a lot of highway driving this sucker was loaded down and had a ton of stuff. And once you get into the White Mountains, you are literally driving a really steep mountain. So it's not exactly the easiest, most fuel efficient driving once you get off the highway. I even got to unintentionally, because thanks for the directions Apple Maps or Siri or whoever My husband used. There was a class six road between me and the Airbnb that was not designated as such until we got right to it. And I'm like this is not paved. This isn't even like a real road road. This is like Bob and his buddy Sam just went out there and, you know, made a road and hack out the trees out of the way when there's a windstorm and I drove it and it wasn't like crazy. It wasn't like he needed a Wrangler. But it was like it was some ruts. There were some bumps and stuff. It handled it beautifully. Like it loaded down with all of this like fully loaded. So I loaded with people and pets and stuff, took it on a highway a long drive on the highway took it off road for a little bit because that was a road we use that little stretch of road and maybe like three or four miles in and out every time we left the Airbnb through the dirt. So it was really it was cool to actually use a giant SUV the way that you're supposed to use a giant SUV. I had for Sam Abuelsamid 4:54 something besides just running down to the corner store for a six pack. Nicole Wakelin 4:58 Exactly and I thought okay, so if you You really had a family really because they were there were five of us in the car, right? So if you had a family, you have three kids like in their younger kids, and you really want it like, I get this, I get it. This is the first time I got it, because you could put all the kids in the car, you could put a friend or two in there with you and you could carry all their stuff. You don't have to worry about splitting people up between two SUVs even because there's nothing that's quite big enough to take everyone. It was brilliant. It was it was so much fun to drive this, my beefs are really, really tiny. So the first one is the cupholders are absolutely horrific. So Right. cupholders matter when you're driving in a car for two hours. So here's the thing. So you know, how cupholders have those like varying degrees of little sort of springy little prongs, that they will spring out to grab your cup, whether it's a tiny little soda can or a big gulp from 711, right? These were too aggressively like no, we're only going to, like hold a tin can. So when you tried to put a larger thing into it, you had to squeeze your drink too hard and you had to kind of almost you almost wanted to pop the top off the drink like the lid, because it wouldn't, it wouldn't squish. They were too strong. And it wasn't just one cup. It was both of them. Because my daughter pushed her drink in and the lid actually popped off because it wanted to grab the cup too tightly. So that's my first complaint. Don't look at me like I'm crazy. Roberto, this is Roberto Baldwin 6:17 a real complaint. Only valid concern. It's a shooting now I drink Red Bull a lot. Yeah. And yeah, I don't want to think shooting all over the place. So Nicole Wakelin 6:30 I put my giant Extra Large skinny decaf vanilla latte from pressed into the cup holder and the lid shut off and I lost a few sips across the console, which I did clean up for it. It's tidy, you'd never know I used wipes and everything. It's all nice and tidy. But every time I thought it was just like a fluke, every time you put something in it to the point that my daughter was complaining about that my husband wrote off when he's like these couples are terrible. Like I know I have witnessed this already. So the cupholders and the other weird thing, the infotainment screen is amazing. It's this I think, I want to say 15.5 inches, but it's this huge vertical touchscreen. And at the very Sam Abuelsamid 7:08 with the knob on the bottom with the knob on the bottom from the machi Nicole Wakelin 7:12 Yeah, pitches Okay, 50 and a half looks great. The knob at the bottom two things about this first of all the knob at the bottom if you use the knob. There's also touchscreen things that are located very close to the knob so you could touch with your fingers. But if you grab the knob and your fingers happened to touch the screen at the same time, you accidentally activate touchscreen things. Yes, I did it. My husband did it and my daughter did it. So it wasn't just it was like you've accidentally and it's not like you're aggressively like floundering. Where's the button you think you've grabbed it but if your fingers touch it just right, you accidentally do other stuff? Here's my weird thing for the for the week so we had one glitch because sometimes glitches happen and my screen decided for a brief time when we were at home that it was not participating in the day it's like no today I sleep and it wouldn't come on it was completely black I had no screen whatsoever like dead dead dead dead once I turned the car off for a while and turned it back on it was kind of like a computer like it reset itself it came back it wasn't you wouldn't power wouldn't come on it was like there was nothing It was completely Gonzo, right? Little bit frustrating would frustrate you right Sam Abuelsamid 8:24 especially given that the climate controls are in the touch interface which is why those things should always be physical controls they should never be in a touchscreen Unknown Speaker 8:33 yes yes Nicole Wakelin 8:36 this is it and I experienced it firsthand I we got in the car we'd had the AC set at a reasonable level got out did our thing came back in it was like 8590 degrees now the cars and Inferno I can't make the AC go any higher than the nice little calm level it was at when we got out of the car I literally can't turn off the air conditioning. So you can't do anything. So if that happened Sam Abuelsamid 8:57 you try did you try using voice to say Nicole Wakelin 9:01 the temperature voice wouldn't recognize nothing. Sam Abuelsamid 9:04 So the whole system was locked down it'll be Nicole Wakelin 9:06 gone. It was completely locked out there I've tried voice I'm trying every permutation and combination that I can think of like is there any way I can get through to this and get it to like kick back in it wouldn't know. It was just this is just like a brief drive from downtown in my town to my house and once I turned it off, we left it off for a little while. Didn't need to turn it on for a couple of hours and we turned it back on it was fine. So whatever it was kicked itself out and reset itself. But I've experienced that like oh my gosh you literally cannot adjust the HVAC, you can't do anything once that happens. So now I am I am pro also having buttons if you want to put it in there have at it but also have hard buttons so that if something goes wrong with that, you can still adjust your AC because it was like within the summer. Just kind of a pain in the butt we left the windows rolled down a little bit to let the worst of the hot air out and then eventually the AC at that low level was enough. But if it was like winter You're and you couldn't turn on your heat. That's a whole Roberto Baldwin 10:03 windshield defaulters. Exactly. Your defogger Nicole Wakelin 10:07 Yeah, so I'd never realized how bad that could be until that one moment I feel like I'm picking on I love this card. This is a weird glitch, but it was one of those like, Now I get why you don't want to design some Roberto Baldwin 10:17 Makoto it's like loving somebody that you went out with and they were kind of a jerk to you a few times. Yeah, Nicole Wakelin 10:26 just a jerk once there was one time he was jerk but all the time Roberto Baldwin 10:30 he just didn't do Nicole Wakelin 10:32 me by accident. One time he refused to talk to me Sam Abuelsamid 10:35 he forgot the toilet seat back down. Right? So otherwise it Nicole Wakelin 10:39 was okay so then you know I'm gonna I'm not gonna like call that like I felt like I needed I like I don't want to call it out and make it sound like oh, this is terrible. This broke it was more like this is what happens if something like that breaks like something to really consider. If that goes suddenly you've lost control of your HVAC which is not fun. Otherwise other than the 25 minutes somewhat hot ride back from downtown to my house with my daughter and I trying everything we could to get it to work. I really did like it I thought it was a great it was it was a very smooth ride. It was really nice to drive this for the hours that I drove it it was it was fantastic. And it was a couple of hours or a couple of hours back so we all like to easy to get in and out of easy to climb from the third row into the second row for my daughter. She wasn't like having to contort herself to get back and forth. So that was easy. So yeah, so all in all, thumbs up Ford Expedition Max. Sam Abuelsamid 11:30 Max, what what trim level was it? Nicole Wakelin 11:34 I had the limited four by four. Sam Abuelsamid 11:37 Okay, I was just wondering if you had the timber line because you know, that would have been interesting to see how the timber line behaved on that. That was a class six road you said Nicole Wakelin 11:46 six road? Yeah, no, it was and you know, like I said it really was off road but it wasn't like you wouldn't have wanted to take a sedan down it just because there were ruts and stuff that were too deep and you'd have bottomed out but it wasn't like you were rock clump crawling or anything but it was you know, loose gravel. Few little steep bits here and there some ruts you had to pay attention to what you're doing. Apparently a lug had our tree had fallen across the road and somebody had cut it was like dragged either side just lined up nicely. Because the little guardrail my brother in law was driving a Jeep Wrangler and he's not an off road guy and I was having so much fun flying down this little thing and my expedition I looked at he was gone I'm like, there were no turn offs, right I didn't lose John did I should be fun. Isn't a Wrangler. Roberto Baldwin 12:28 Also, probably all the dust you kicked up? No one. Nicole Wakelin 12:31 Actually it was because we'd had some rain we had so everything was pretty taped down. There were some puddles as the guys that go to clean it will discover when there's like smoosh all over the sides of this. Sam Abuelsamid 12:43 So he's just he's just not used to you know how to actually drive off road like you are. Nicole Wakelin 12:48 He is not so she said I was driving too fast. And I said not in my world. I wasn't Roberto Baldwin 12:54 driving too slow because there's always people in the car. Nicole Wakelin 12:56 Exactly. I was being conscious because they were like civilians with me. Sam Abuelsamid 13:01 And how much was the expedition? I don't know. Did you say the price Nicole Wakelin 13:04 I did not say the price the price for this one as acquit was at $4,660. So it is not a cheap date. Nope. One of the I'm just looking at the equipment package. The pant there's there was really cool panoramic vista roof, they call it it's like the whole length of the thing that that roof was $9,000. Sam Abuelsamid 13:26 No, by itself, or was that part of the package? Nicole Wakelin 13:29 It says, oh, wait a minute. There's another thing that panoramic vista roof and the stealth edition package, but it was just black edition. Did you make it black? Sam Abuelsamid 13:39 That black problem with black wheels sunroof? Nicole Wakelin 13:41 Black, right? Yeah, that was that package is $9,000. Roberto Baldwin 13:46 What a rip. I'm just gonna say that's a rip and people will pay for it because they want a black car. Nicole Wakelin 13:54 I guess they probably will. It was fun. If I was looking to spend 86 grand on like, really, I really needed that. I mean, that is a huge vehicle if you really need that much it. It did the job and it was fun. And let me do a little bit of off road stuff. And yeah, even though it was a little bit of a cranky boyfriend is Roberto's pointed out Roberto Baldwin 14:12 crude bread. I'm not gonna Unknown Speaker 14:16 keep you cool. I'm not gonna let you put your drink here. No, not the Roberto Baldwin 14:20 boss of me. Don't push me around. Nicole Wakelin 14:23 I'll show you. No HVAC. Sam Abuelsamid 14:26 All right. What about you Robbie, what did you drive? Roberto Baldwin 14:29 I drove nothing. I got nothing to tell you. I didn't know No, I Well, I got nothing out front right now. I'm just trying to catch up. I have a lot of I have a lot of non driving articles. Also, I have some driving articles up there. So in order to keep myself from falling further behind. I have I have opted to finish my work before taking on more work like an adult. It doesn't happen very often. That the laughing all responsible. No does you know. And of course now I'm like, I gotta reach out to this fleet guys and see if I can get that one car and Nicole Wakelin 15:12 I need to drive stuff that's part of my job Sam Abuelsamid 15:20 well, when I got back from our vacation, my wife and I got back from our vacation a week and a half ago, we had dropped off the maki GT at the airport in San Francisco. And back in Detroit, we picked up an Audi e Tron GT. And so kind of my first opportunity to drive one of these vehicles, it's based on the same platform as the Porsche TT icon. I will say this is a fantastic looking car. And I really enjoyed driving it. This was not the RS, just the just the standard E Tron GT. And so it had, I think about 580 or so horsepower, something something in that ballpark. And 93 kilowatt hour battery pack. It's, it is rated EPA rated at 238 miles of range, which doesn't seem like that much for a car the size with with the size of battery pack. But in fact, you know, when we got into it, it was you know, it was showing 260 miles of range. And it it was easily getting at least that much. Because when I you know I did actually did a lot of highway driving with it had actually, on the day after we got back, I actually had two appointments in Detroit, one in the morning and one in the evening. So I drove to Detroit and back twice that day and did a bunch of other driving around, drove to party. And Bloomfield Hills on Saturday night, did all that without charging it. And by the time I got back to near my home in Ypsilanti on Saturday night, I had put that it was again, it was mostly highway driving. So, you know, not the most efficient for a for an Eevee. And, you know, if you're going to drive on the highway in Michigan, you know, you got to keep up with the flow of traffic, which rarely ever goes at the speed limit. And the speed limit in that area is 70 miles an hour. So it was not, you know, ideal for maximizing the range. But I had already driven over 230 miles in that car, and still had 30 miles of range showing. So you know, if I'd had more around town urban driving, I could have easily, I think gotten probably over 280 Maybe 290 miles, you know, in more mixed driving conditions with this thing. And so, you know, I was and this is something you know, from other tests that have been done, or both the PT icon and the E Tron GT. You know, everybody has been, you know, way exceeding the EPA range numbers for these vehicles. So clearly Porsche and Audi you know, were very conservative in their testing to make sure that they didn't over promise and under deliver, they wanted to go the other way around. And it's definitely worked. The, the one the car I had had the prestige package which is $7,200 on top of the than that $99,900 base price. And then it also had the performance package which gets you 20 inch fives five double spoke wheels, summer tires, Audi laser light headlights, ie torque vectoring plus high gloss black grille, and this the car was white. So white with the with the black grille, the black trim, you know had sort of you know, sort of sort of Star Wars Stormtrooper kind of vibe but full leather interior for another four grand and technology features you know, 1,000/5 $45 destination charge brought the the grand total to $118,740 Wow, this is not not an inexpensive car. But Roberto Baldwin 19:45 yet, and yet those packages are still cheaper than the expedition's like hey, you want a glass roof and some black room? Nicole Wakelin 19:53 I really need to look it up. What else is that stills package? We've got to be more. I'm gonna look it up and see a Roberto Baldwin 19:59 bag of like five $1,000 in the trunk, Sam Abuelsamid 20:02 you know, and the Audi did have a full glass roof as well. So, you know, there's that. You know, I really enjoyed driving this thing, you know, the seats were fantastic. You know, the the front seats, great, you know, the prestige package gets you. massages, seats, which is always a nice thing when you're spending a lot of time in the car. It had adaptive cruise and Audi's active lane assist, which is, you know, a lane keeping assist, it's not a lane centering system. So, you know, what you're getting there is not something like the, you know, not something like autopilot. If you can't, you know, you definitely have to keep your hands on the wheel with this. But, you know, it's, that's fine. You know, I don't have an issue with that, because you probably should keep your hands on the wheel anyway. The, the performance package adds rear wheel steering. So this thing has great stability on the road, when you're, you know, does a little bit of in face during when you're changing lanes on the highway, that feels really good. It's not, it's not quite as quick as the as the PT icon. But you know, it'll still do zero to 60. And about right around three seconds. And one thing that's interesting in this one, because it's the same same power train, you get into TT icon, which means that on the rear motor, there's a two speed gearbox, as opposed to just a single speed reduction gearbox that you get on most EVs. And, you know, when you put it into, you know, the performance mode, you know, there's several different drive modes. out he calls it dynamic mode. And you use launch control, launch control, dead simple to use this thing. Put your left foot on the brake pedal, hold it down, put your right foot on the accelerator, push it all the way to the floor, remove your left foot from the brake pedal, and go. And you can you can feel it when it shifts, which is an unusual feeling in an Eevee because usually in an Eevee it's just completely seamless. Nicole Wakelin 22:17 Yeah, just like juice forward. Yeah, you never feel anything, you're just suddenly you're moving. Sam Abuelsamid 22:22 Yeah, you can, you can definitely feel it when it shifts in this thing. When you've got it in Eco mode, I think it keeps it just in the in the higher gear all the time because the acceleration doesn't feel quite as brutal off the line. And you never feel it shift and, and then most driving it pretty much anything but the hardest acceleration, you're never going to feel any shifting. But in that, you know, when it's when it is really hard acceleration you will, you can feel it shift. One, you know, one complaint I do have about this car is I do wish it was a hatchback. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's got that sleek fastback shape, you know, looks like a four door coupe. But the the trunk opening is kind of small, and it's the trunk is rather shallow, I was able to get you know, when we returned from our trip, I was able to get to carry on bags in the trunk, I had to move the bag for the charging cable to get them in there, but I was able to fit them in. But you know, it was it was a tight squeeze in there. And I ended up putting the two backpacks in the back seat. So it's a fairly small trunk. And if you had if it did have a hatchback like an a seven or an a five, you'd have a lot more usable rear cargo space. backseat is also not especially roomy, I was able to sit back there, my head was not touching the glass ceiling. And my knees we're not quite touching the front of the back of the front seat, the driver's seat. And, um, you know, about five 511 or so. So I was able to fit back there but you know, it wasn't, it didn't have the kind of massive capacity that you'd feel you would get in something like a Lucid Air, you know, which feels incredibly roomy in the backseat. This is this is definitely tight tighter. You know, I mean, this is a classic Grand Touring Car. You know, so it's not a not a hardcore sports car. But it's, you know, fast, fast transportation in style and comfort. And you know, and it's gorgeous. I love the way this thing looks. You know, I? I probably wouldn't choose one in white. If I were buying one because Nicole Wakelin 24:47 like what color would you pick? What would you pick? Sam Abuelsamid 24:51 I would probably pick you know, one of the probably multiple shades of silver or gray that they have. I don't think that they have I don't think it has any really bold colors on this thing. Roberto Baldwin 25:01 They have the red the red looks really nice. It's like, they have a rare Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's I forgot on the Yeah, the other red is is that only on the RS though? Or is it oh, maybe it is always only on the Rs. I've driven a lot of them. I've driven all the variants. So now I'm don't know which is which anymore? Like me bragging about driving a car? Nicole Wakelin 25:24 Or whatever? Yeah, Roberto Baldwin 25:26 you know, the RS, actually, Sam Abuelsamid 25:29 yes, there was a red or something, or blue? You know, I would, I would go with a bolder color. You know, the, you know, the whites fine. But like I say, it wouldn't be my first choice. And, you know, I would, you know, I would probably never buy a white card just because there's, there's too many of those. But other than that, you know, and, you know, it's not, it's not an inexpensive car. It's, it's fairly pricey. But, you know, if you're looking for something that's quick, and very stylish and comfortable for a couple with no room to take another couple along with you, you know, when when you want to go out for dinner? You know, this, this is definitely something to consider if you're looking for, you know, a really premium, Grand Touring coupe style car. I would also prefer, you know, just a pure two door coupe. But you know, that, that is what it is, you know, unfortunately, most manufacturers don't sell enough of those to justify it. So that's, that's the way it goes. But, you know, definitely gets a lot better range than what the Monroney indicates. So, I wouldn't worry about the 238 mile stated range, because you can you can definitely go a lot farther than that. And you could if you were driving it fairly tamely, which means to wants to in a car like this, but if you were you could probably get close to 300 miles if you really wanted to. So that's the Audi e Tron GT. Oh, and one other thing that I was found quite surprising is the ride quality was actually really good. You know, considering the type of car this is, you know, I drove it over some pretty rough pavement. And, you know, I wouldn't call it subtle, but very well controlled and not at all harsh. It was very comfortable to drive. Roberto Baldwin 27:27 It's the more tame version of what the PT icon is. What's your Yeah, yeah. The PT icon. The PT icons is a lot more aggressive. Both accelerator and suspension wise. The E Tron GT is when you're like, you know what? I just, you know, I want to go fast. But I also want to Sam Abuelsamid 27:44 feel pampered. Ya know? Exactly right. Roberto Baldwin 27:47 I deserve some pampering. Sam Abuelsamid 27:50 Okay, I'm praying. We all deserve some pampering once in a while. Roberto Baldwin 27:53 I think that's fair. Yeah. We're caring for your money. Nicole Wakelin 27:58 You deserve it. Roberto Baldwin 28:00 You should treat yourself right. Nicole Wakelin 28:03 Okay, I have an answer to free guy. This by the way, what is in the limited stealth Performance Package after I dug through 8900 pages worth of media and consumer side information, it just as the sunroof and the special stealth package on my Monroney. But the equipment thing is actually the stealth performance Equipment Group, which is the little code number, it gets a high output version of that 3.5 liter V six, I cannot for the life of me find out how much more horsepower that adds. But it does get a little bit in a sport tuned suspension. So it gets a few little performance see bits, in addition to 99% of it being black stuff, Sam Abuelsamid 28:42 black trim, and probably about 10 or 20 horsepower, I think, Nicole Wakelin 28:46 yeah, I can't find it I'm looking for and I cannot find out what the horsepower increase actually is. But so it does get the high output that's that's so you're getting a little bit more engine a little bit more performance looks like you know, this 14 suspension stuff. So it's a little bit more than just the black plus and panoramic roof for 9000. You get a little bit of performance. Sam Abuelsamid 29:06 Yeah, for for some sport sells a bunch of different variations of that 3.5 liter EcoBoost V six, that and they all range from about 400 to 450 horsepower. So it's going to be somewhere in that range. It's probably Oh wait, I Nicole Wakelin 29:21 got it for 4004 104 40 horsepower. I don't know what the regular one is. So I found the I think it's 440. Okay, so it's 40 more horsepower. So a little chunk of extra horsepower. Overseas, so that's good. Sam Abuelsamid 29:35 That's worth nine grand. Nicole Wakelin 29:37 Yeah, totally worth nine grand for the black, the black rim. Excellent. Yes, you have a black headlamp and foglamps bezels. Roberto Baldwin 29:47 I mean, Oh, you didn't say anything about bezels. Nicole Wakelin 29:49 I know I missed out on the bezels either unique interior stitching in red. But mostly it's pretty stuff and 40 horsepower, Roberto Baldwin 29:57 pretty stuff and 40 horsepower. It Got grin here? Yeah, go. Here you go. Sam Abuelsamid 30:03 All right. Let's get into some stories for the week. One thing that we forgot to talk about last week because we had a bunch of stuff that we're catching up on. And I forgot to put it on. I actually had intended to put it on the rundown forgot completely forgot, is the Cadillac silastic. Which, Nicole, were you at the GM evey day in March of 2020. Nicole Wakelin 30:27 I was not okay. Sam Abuelsamid 30:29 So I think I was the only one of the three of us that was there. This was an event they did. And one of the last, I think the last event that GM did before the lockdown, where they showed us a whole bunch of the upcoming EVs, and they showed us a clay model of the silastic. It was the of the 12 cars that they showed us. It was the last one that they took, took the silk off of and said, Oh, and one more thing, kind of an old, old time Steve Jobs thing. One more special thing coming. And they didn't give us much detail about it. Except, you know, they said, you know, this is going to be a handbuilt ultra luxury car. The one they had at the time didn't even have an interior. And so we had no idea what the interior was going to look like. We only saw the exterior. And now they've shown off the Celestica showcar, which is by all accounts going to be essentially the same as the production model that's going to be coming later next year. This is going to be a handbill personalized for every customer. I think they're only planning on building a few 100 A year of these. So about the same pace that they're building Hummers right now apparently everybody who saw the time was was pretty impressed with with most of it, most of the design. What the two of you think of this. Nicole Wakelin 32:04 I mean, it looks absolutely beautiful light the interior, it's it's funny that they didn't have the interior to show you at that day you were talking about because the interior of this thing is amazing. Is that actually that red, red, it's very red. Roberto Baldwin 32:17 It's a little too red. Nicole Wakelin 32:19 It's very red. Unknown Speaker 32:20 It is very, very red. Roberto Baldwin 32:21 That's my favorite bit like Nicole Wakelin 32:23 Hugh Hefner smoking jacket kind of situation happening in there. It's like it's very Roberto Baldwin 32:29 red, very red. Little to read a little too much red. But that said, of course, US flagship sedan when it's clearly a wagon. Just call it a wagon. Well, Sam Abuelsamid 32:40 it's actually it's not a wagon though. Roberto Baldwin 32:42 It looks like a wagon. Come on. I mean, we have how's that? Does it have a hatchback? Nicole Wakelin 32:51 Yes, it looks like Sam Abuelsamid 32:57 I don't actually I don't know. Roberto Baldwin 32:59 I can see the little little line. Just from the looks. I Nicole Wakelin 33:06 know that's wondering. I'm looking at like a little seam and it looks like theme Roberto Baldwin 33:08 that pops up. And that's where you put your stuff and when you're going to Walley world with the kids Nicole Wakelin 33:16 in your custom hand and commissioned car that I would never put a child in ever. Roberto Baldwin 33:22 Well, the kids when they're older, they're not. They want to go to you know, somewhere across the country. Little road Nicole Wakelin 33:30 really is absolutely beautiful though. It's even as I'm picking on the red, it's very red inside, but it's a stunning car the details if it actually looks like this in production, if it's this detailed and has this kind of personality to it. It's an absolutely gorgeous card. Did they get pricing on this? Sam Abuelsamid 33:45 It's gonna be around $300,000 Nicole Wakelin 33:49 Oh sure. For $300,000 it is gonna look exactly like this is gorgeous. Sam Abuelsamid 33:54 Build it at your handbuilding it dollars and you'll be able to personalize if if the red doesn't work for you on the interior. You can make it any color you want. Nicole Wakelin 34:05 So would you do this? $300,000 for a Cadillac there's a lot of cars you could buy for 300,000 Would you buy the Cadillac? Are there other $300,000 cars that you might buy first? Sam Abuelsamid 34:17 So you know for 300 grand you could get something like this or a Mercedes my Bach or Nicole Wakelin 34:26 what else there's some Aston Sam Abuelsamid 34:30 our Rolls Royce ghost you know some Aston Martin's? I mean, I would I would seriously consider this well all Roberto Baldwin 34:39 those other vehicles. Well, I mean how many ghosts they make a year like 12 Nicole Wakelin 34:44 like is Cadillac have enough of the the sort of cachet to pull off a $300,000 car? Well, I think it's true that buys 300 cars Roberto Baldwin 34:54 there's only gonna be a few of them. There'll be people who will buy them just because it's like a dream. It's like a supreme Drop, but for a really expensive car, okay, like there's only gonna be x amount of Celestica available. And so people are gonna buy them in order to be the peak. It's Nicole Wakelin 35:10 really just Celestica I don't think I've heard it spoken before simplistic, I'm gonna say so let's stick in my head all the time because I feel like that's what it looks like. Sam Abuelsamid 35:23 You're free to pronounce it any way you want. So, when when we saw it two years ago, the most controversial thing that everybody I mean, from the front, three quarters and the front, you know, everybody unreservedly loved it. The one thing that that kind of got everybody that they weren't sure about, was the look of the the C pillar the rear the rear quarter. What do you think of that mean? You've got this massive piece of sheet metal there Nicole Wakelin 35:52 for that. That's it really that solid? I'm trying to get other pictures? Yeah, Sam Abuelsamid 35:56 it's solid. Yeah, huge. Yeah. Nicole Wakelin 35:59 Did it look awkward in person? Is this one of those are you're saying it did look awkward in person because I'm looking at it. Sometimes it doesn't, you know, looking at an image on a computer isn't the same thing as the real live version, but it still looks kind of solid like that a lot. It's metal. Yeah. See pillar. Sam Abuelsamid 36:14 It is, you know, granted, you know, this is got a similar kind of look to the lyric. Where so you've got this sort of hockey shit hockey stick shaped, horizontal light that goes up the pillar. And then it's kind of scalloped out behind that, you know, so it's, it's not just a flat panel there. You know, it's got some, some contouring to it. Which you know, which breaks it up a little bit. But you know, it's it's still you know, I don't know yet. I haven't made up my mind yet. About the rear three quarter view. Nicole Wakelin 36:57 I can see where it be controversial. I want to see it for realsies with the light that we have a light plays against it and how it just looks in person. Sam Abuelsamid 37:05 Right. And we saw it in the design. So yeah. Yeah, love to see what it looks like outside. Nicole Wakelin 37:14 Oh, it is overall it's beautiful. All the detailing the details in this car? Phenomenal. Like everywhere you look, there is a little detail. It's it's, it's Sam Abuelsamid 37:24 it's gorgeous. It's really funny. You got to fool with display pillar, the pillar display, which will be a first for Cadillac. Roberto Baldwin 37:35 What's the H battlesystem? situation? Nicole Wakelin 37:40 Is it all in that touchscreen? Because if it is I'm out? Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid 37:43 I don't know. I don't know. Well, we'll have to see. It's hard to tell from just from these images. So we'll be seeing more of this in the coming months. And then it may we might even see it at the Detroit Auto Show in September. I suspect they'll probably have it there. And then. Oh, I think they're I think they may have it at the at Pebble Beach. Are you going to Pebble Robbie? Roberto Baldwin 38:12 Yeah, I'll be at Pebble. So if you see me say hi. And I'll give you a low five. No more high fives. I decided high fives are not cool anymore. You're never cool. I just like to do it. And it's Nicole Wakelin 38:23 you because nobody can reach you when you do a high five, it's like to jump Roberto Baldwin 38:28 below five minutes. So if you're a pebble and you see me Give me a low five. Sam Abuelsamid 38:32 Okay, or $1 one of those taller. So. So this elastic is riding on using the the ultium electric power system. So the ultium battery, that's probably going to have at least 100 kilowatt hour battery pack, probably more for the high end versions. Yeah, because they're, they're going to be aiming for, you know, probably 350 and 400 mile range with this thing. So we'll be waiting for more details coming up. Yeah. All right. Last week, GM also revealed another new model. This time not electric. The 2023 Chevy Colorado their new or updated midsize truck. Do you guys have a chance to take a look at this Roberto Baldwin 39:29 a little bit the C pillar so much smaller? No. I don't know if I like it. Kind of. Well, you could Sam Abuelsamid 39:34 get the desert boss that has, you know, the sport bar with the sail panels on there. So that kind of emulates the C pillar. Roberto Baldwin 39:41 All right. Yeah, that's Sam Abuelsamid 39:42 fine. Okay. So, so the new Colorado and presumably the GMC Canyon, which we haven't seen yet, are both the same overall size as the current generation models, but they stretched the wheelbase three inches, most of which goes to the front end. And so you get less front overhang. They're trying to make this thing more off road capable than before. They've added a desert boss trim on top of the ZR two package that they already have on the current generation. So that's got the fancy Multimatic dampers with the remote reservoirs and all kinds of other cool stuff. One interesting change is no more V six and no more diesel engine and the Colorado just three different variations of the the two liter or the sort of the 2.7 liter four cylinder turbo that launched in the Silverado a couple of years ago ranging from 230 to 320 horsepower Sam Abuelsamid 40:47 of either view driven vehicles with that 2.7 liter turbo in it Roberto Baldwin 40:53 I'm trying to think of the silver out now I've only given up six Nicole Wakelin 40:56 don't I'm gonna say don't remember which is terrible, but I don't I don't remember I don't believe I have Sam Abuelsamid 41:01 Okay, well it was it was fine in the in the Silverado. I was less impressed with it in the Cadillac CT four v. But you know, that's probably just because it's not really well suited to a car like the CT four v. But yeah, it'll it'll be fine. You know, it's reasonably smooth. You know, should get decent fuel economy. And you know, the Ranger only comes with a four cylinder turbo engine as well. So, you know, you'll have a brand new Ranger brand new Colorado and Canyon. Maybe a ram Dakota coming at some point. And there's a new Toyota Tacoma coming soon. So the midsize truck segment is getting pretty interesting again. Nicole Wakelin 41:46 Because people love those. I mean, you sometimes you want a truck, but you don't want yourself a Silverado, you don't want an F 150 You just see a little bit truck, usually a little bit truck. Roberto Baldwin 41:56 I see more smaller trucks, like the maverick. Nicole Wakelin 42:00 Like little ones, little trucks, Roberto Baldwin 42:01 I like slam them and put some big rims on him. Put a big speaker carry Nicole Wakelin 42:06 the boats, they still carry Sam Abuelsamid 42:09 a mulch, unless you fill up the bed with speakers, Roberto Baldwin 42:13 or speakers. Hey, go, but did the speakers only so the depth of the let's say 12 and 12. You don't need the entire bed so you can leave like a little layer. You can slide the bolts underneath. Sam Abuelsamid 42:25 Oh, okay. Leave a gap under the speakers. Yeah, leave a gap under the speakers. So stick about it. Shove about half a dozen bags of mulch under there. Boom, boom. And Roberto Baldwin 42:35 then when you need to get that last one out. You just like park on a hill and take off real fast and then the multiple Nicole Wakelin 42:41 shred at the back. Roberto Baldwin 42:43 Solving problems here. Oh four. Sam Abuelsamid 42:48 Well, actually speaking of the maverick I don't have it on the list here. But this morning, Ford announced the maverick tremor coming for the 23 model year, which is basically they took it took all the hardware, the cool hardware from the Bronco sport and put it on the maverick. So you've got it's got an extra inch of ride height. It's got the twin clutch locking rear differential. And then the the two liter EcoBoost four cylinder with 250 horsepower. Did you guys take a look at that one? Roberto Baldwin 43:23 Yeah, I saw it I first I was like, really? And then I looked at it. I'm like, All right. Here's a fun side story. I was at I don't know somewhere and someone pulled into a parking lot with a maverick. But they had a raptor badge put on Nicole Wakelin 43:39 this just screws Sam Abuelsamid 43:42 with the steel wheels Roberto Baldwin 43:43 wasn't the basics. It was the Lariat so they had thrown all the stuff on and then they went out and they like went online they found the Raptor badge and they'd like adhere to to the to the trucks kind of the sad thing was slightly askew so they spent all this money and it's just excuse just slightly. Yeah, like oh, man, you did all that work. Oh, well. But the tremor looks nice. Nicole Wakelin 44:08 I think yes. Good. We'll allow it. Oh, yeah. Allow it. Continue production. Go ahead forward. We've approved. Sam Abuelsamid 44:18 Nicole and Robbie approve. I'll send a note to Mike Levine and Tom let Nicole Wakelin 44:23 him know. Yeah. Like it's cool. So far. It's okay, Mike. Go ahead. We're cool with it. Go go go. Roberto Baldwin 44:28 I was I was on the fence that I saw it. Okay, fine. Sam Abuelsamid 44:32 You can begin taking orders and start building. Roberto Baldwin 44:35 Well, they can even build the ones they have already. That's true. I go to the Ford site. I don't know why I was looking up the maverick maybe because I liked a maverick. Am I cool? I should buy one of these one day. And I was like, Yeah, you're not getting a maverick anytime soon, buddy. That's essentially what the site says. Does it really? Yeah. Same thing with Ionic five you got the ionic five and it's like Sam Abuelsamid 44:57 they had they had four had stopped taking orders for the Maverick and a few other models a couple of months ago. And I guess as of today, they've reopened the order books again for the 23 models. So they're starting to take orders for the 20 threes now. Cool. Nicole Wakelin 45:16 All right, good. I see the little warning due to a combination of high demand and global supply chain constraints. Not all models and trims features are available, contact your dealer, it does give you a little warning. You have to acknowledge it, acknowledge Roberto Baldwin 45:29 I acknowledge it, Sam Abuelsamid 45:29 that kind of firewall, contact your dealer and ask him how much of a markup he's going to put on the MSRP. Nicole Wakelin 45:36 Yeah, what is this actually going to cost me It says 20,000 995. Here, what's your price? Sam Abuelsamid 45:43 Well, 20,000 995, plus another 20,009 9595, you're out the door. All right, go speak. Speaking of which, well, GM and Ford are trying, we'll see how successful they are to limit, you know, the gouging, dealer gouging, and people buying these things and flipping them for more money. The latest thing that the GM did is they they have announced that on several of their most popular models, like the Hummer, the Escalade V and the Corvette 06. They, if you buy one of these, and then resell it within 12 months, they are not going to allow transfer of the warranties on these things. So usually, you know, when you when you sell it by car, and then you sell it, you know, the as long as the warranties are still in effect, the original factory warranties are still in effect the transfers over to subsequent owners. But that won't be the case if you sell any of these vehicles within a year after you buy them. So, you know, that would presumably discourage people from paying a premium to get these things if they know there's not going to be any warranty on it. What do you think about that strategy? Nicole Wakelin 47:13 I get what they're trying to do. Roberto Baldwin 47:18 It's I mean, if the the idea is that the dealerships are using fake names to buy cars, and they turn around and sell them, and so that's, that's sort of like, Hey, we're gonna stop that. And of course, there are people who are buying cars, and then putting them on the auction sites and doing that. But at the same time, there are people you know, that's the the unintended consequences of this rule is that someone buys a 06. And then they get laid off. You know, there's a medical emergency and their family, and now they are trying to sell a car. And oh, by the way, when you buy this car for me, it's not going to have the warranty anymore, which now is it's not only punishing the seller, it's punishing the buyer. So I feel like there's the you know, they, they're sort of dancing around the actual issue, which is the dealers ripping people off and figuring out new and exciting ways. And instead of just saying, Hey, if you do this as a dealer, you're not gonna get cars anymore. Instead, they're like, Well, how about we do this thing instead? So it's not Yeah, I don't know. I feel Nicole Wakelin 48:20 like if they do this, it's to stop the dealers being doing what they're doing it but it's going to the dealers will find a way to get around it if they can, and they'll, you know, continue whatever their individual dealers business, as usual is, but like you said, Roberto, it's the guy who gets laid off and can't afford to keep his Corvette is now suddenly stuck. When honest to goodness, he wanted that Corvette, and now he can't keep it. But now he to sell it is a problem because he can't transfer the warranty. I get the I feel like it's gonna hurt the people it's least intended to hurt, you know, Roberto Baldwin 48:49 the dealer figure something out to they're like, Hey, you can buy a third party warranty on this car, you know, Sam Abuelsamid 48:54 yeah. Yeah, I, you know, I would guess that, you know, GM will probably build in some kind of flexibility. So that, you know, if you can, you know, if you were an actual consumer that bought this thing, and you can provide some evidence that, you know, look, I lost my job, I can't make the payments on this, you know, I need to sell it or trade it in, you know, there's probably a mechanism that will, that they'll, you know, they'll they can judge, you know, they can make a judgment call on a case by case basis and say, okay, for, you know, in this case, because you did, in fact, get laid off and you need to sell it, then, you know, will will allow the warranty transfer on that, you know, I mean, GM has got the discretion to be able to do that if they want to do that. Roberto Baldwin 49:45 If they have the people to do it to now you're like, oh, now I'm waiting for what's going on? Well, I'm trying to sell my car but I can't sell it for two months. Well, I'm still waiting for GM to say yea or nay. Meanwhile, my kids don't have any food. No, I'm just kidding. I just got it. It's Nicole Wakelin 49:58 starving, but I had this really snazzy Corvette in the driveway. I just Madison with a typical consumer will have to endure but Sam Abuelsamid 50:10 hopefully, you know, if you've, if you've got the wherewithal to buy, you know, 100 to $200,000 car, you might have enough savings. Hopefully you've got enough savings, you know, to get you through a couple of months. You know, if you lose your job, you know, hopefully you're not living paycheck to paycheck. If you're buying a car like this, I mean, I guess if you are living paycheck to paycheck Roberto Baldwin 50:34 and you buy a car like this that was that was Sam Abuelsamid 50:37 maybe maybe you should rethink your priorities a little bit Roberto Baldwin 50:47 I only got enough money for me and this Cadillac Escalade. Nicole Wakelin 50:51 That's all I got me I got I got Roberto Baldwin 50:53 enough money. I'm just I'm at Razor's Edge Razor's Edge razor's edge of life, just one studio apartment. Nicole Wakelin 51:05 And I love the backstory you've created for our consumer here. Roberto Baldwin 51:11 Good luck. Good luck. Good luck. Sam Abuelsamid 51:14 All right. Last. Last news item for the week, is Senators Schumer and mansion apparently finally came to an agreement late last week on a new tax and budget bill that includes some updates to the Evie, tax incentive system. And there's some some pretty substantial changes. First of all, they're eliminating the 200,000 vehicle sales cap to be eligible for incentives. And so, you know, manufacturers, you know, at least through 20, the end of 2031 will be able to the sell as many EVs as they can, and customers will be able to get tax breaks on them. But they've also made some other changes in the eligibility for these tax breaks. For example, now there's an income cap. So it's $150,000, income income for single filers, 300,000 for couples filing jointly. So if you make more than 150, or $300,000, you won't be able to get a tax break on an Eevee, you'll have to pay full price. There's also changes in in the way that it's being done. So instead of a tax credit that you file on your next year's tax return, which means that you may or may not actually be able to get the full amount back, depending on how much your income is. The new system allows for a transfer of the credit to the dealer. So the dealers have to register with the IRS to be able to do this, but they the cars, if they if they're registered, and the vehicle qualifies, the customer can transfer the $7,500 tax credit to the dealer and then get that as an immediate discount. So basically, you get a point of sale rebate, which goes as a discount to the sale price, which means that you can actually, you know, where's the current system, the tax credit doesn't lower your monthly payment on the car, because you still have to pay the full price and then get the money back later from the government. Now you can lower the upfront price of the car and get get the lower monthly payment. So EVs will be potentially affordable to a lot more people. And then there's also a cap on the sticker on the MSRP of the car. So for cars, it's going to be $55,000. So if a car if an electric car cost more than $55,000, no tax break for you, and for trucks and SUVs, it's $80,000. So you won't be able to get a tax break on a Model S plaid or Lucid Air. But you know you can for a Kona Evie or a Maki or blazer or something like that, or model three or model why you'd be able to get those. And then it's also limited to EVs that are built in North America. So you won't be able to get a tax break on a BMW i for an AI x because they're built in Germany. You won't be able to get a break on on a vinfast that's built in Vietnam. But if it's built in in Canada, US or Mexico, you will be able to get the tax credit What do you think of this new system? Roberto Baldwin 55:02 My only issue is the fact that there's a 50,000 $1,000 cap on sedans and an $80,000 cap on SUVs and trucks. Like why? That's because yeah, that's that's my biggest issue. Everything else for the most part, I'm fine with instant money. That's great. The used car, the used car, yet $4,000 $4,000 us DV which most people who can't afford a new car. I mean, I've never actually gone out and purchased a new car. I've leased two new cars, but I've never purchased a new car. So you know, for people who make money I make are less than you. You can't afford a new car, you can go out and get a used one and get a $4,000 credit which is really nice. I'm fine with it. And I'm also fine with the cabinet. You know, for 150,000 If you're buying 100 And let's say you're buying an Audi e Tron GT. You don't need $7,500 You're buying 100 And something $1,000 car. That's you're fine. You're doing okay. You don't need it. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, really. I think these at this point, it's you know, it's trying to get you know, people who aren't making you know, $200,000 in buying plaids for funsies, it's everyone else. And then I also happy they got rid of the cap. Nicole Wakelin 56:25 unnecessarily complicated. Like it's this much for cars is this Mr. SUVs, it has to be made in the USA, if you're making x over x dollars, you can't get it if you're making under x, you get this if it's used car, you get that I feel like genuinely the average consumer is gonna look at and go Roberto Baldwin 56:41 that hard. Really, I mean, the only thing that the only 150 and 300 for two to 300,000 for two people 150 For one person, the 7500 it's the same as it was before. So now you get money. Like right away. It's really the SUV versus like car thing. That's the thing that really bothers me. Nicole Wakelin 57:00 Why does it bother you? What does this is more for? Because Roberto Baldwin 57:03 the cars because SUVs and vans of all and trucks have always got like this, this wonderful leg up. And being you know, there's there's fewer emission standards, this this whole thing, and then, you know, just telling people, you know, what, just keep buying gigantic vehicles that you probably don't really need in the rest of your life. Like it's cool, we're gonna we're gonna reward you for buying a vehicle. That's that's a less efficient than the than the sedans because there's so much larger, they have, you know, higher drag coefficient. And real. Yeah, I mean, it was the the article about the, the Hummer EV getting the same amount of co2 are less than a Chevy Malibu, I mean, big trucks are still big trucks, they're not going to be as efficient. And so you're, you're sort of saying, Hey, you're gonna get the more efficient sedan? Well, we're gonna lower the amount will will allow you to to, to spend on that sedan that's more efficient than the large truck, the SUV, the vans? No one buys fans anymore. Sam Abuelsamid 58:04 commercial customers do. What commercial commercial fleets do? Roberto Baldwin 58:11 Yeah, that's a whole other. That's a whole other thing. Because that that's a whole Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid 58:17 Yeah. Okay, I feel that. And actually, you know, to your point, Nicole, but this being a little bit more complicated than before, there are, there are some additional complications that I didn't get into, not, not every vehicle will actually be eligible for full $7,500. Because there, there's some rules in there about the domestic content of the batteries. So there's, I was wondering about that, like, so they split it, they split the 7500 in half. So 3750 is for an Eevee that's built in North America. And then another, the other 3750 is based on the domestic content of the battery critical materials, gravy, so if it reaches a certain threshold, then you get that other 3750. And if if the, if all the battery materials come from China, then you won't get that so Nicole Wakelin 59:17 so you have to look at where the actual materials and the battery of the vehicle that you're considering buying is versus the other battery materials from the other vehicle you're considering buying combined with where that Sam Abuelsamid 59:27 vehicles pretty what I mean what's so dope built, built, publish a list of the cars that are eligible for braking and each one. Roberto Baldwin 59:38 And hybrid as well, I mean that you still get into and that that whole system is like well, it's based on battery capacity. So you can get a P Hey, they get $7,500 because the battery capacity just is just a little bit north of what they've come up of a number that came up with like 10 years ago. So it's always going to be I mean, it's always going to be like slightly confusing and it's always just like Okay, these are the cars I want, you narrowed down to the two cars, and then you figure out how much you're gonna get back for each one. Nicole Wakelin 1:00:06 I still think it's confusing. I would love to see the government just make a rule that was like x or y. That's it by this, do this do that like it's supposed to. But if this then that it's like, it's like there's a decision tree there that has like 50 branches. I went to decision tree that has to, I'm buying an Eevee? Yes, you get your refund, your your rebate, I'm not buying an Eevee. No, you don't die. That's my decision tree to be. I don't want to, well, if this then that, like little circles and lives, some of them are diamonds, and some of them are well, what day of the week was it was the sun high? What was the temperature? Like now? Sam Abuelsamid 1:00:43 It'll be a list of here's, here's the EVS that are available. Here's the discount that's available on each one samples. And you can decide, you know, how much each one's you know, if it's something you can afford or not. To go through all those details, which people Roberto Baldwin 1:00:59 know how they're doing. They're gonna say, Oh, I'm rich. I don't get this discount. Wow, I'm rich. Nicole Wakelin 1:01:09 Wow, okay. Sam Abuelsamid 1:01:11 Well, look, why don't why don't we get into some of the the question listener questions then. And the first one, which is actually the last one on the list here from John W. Halkias. He actually had a question about this about the tax credit, the proposed tax credit. And keep in mind that at least as of the time we're recording this on Monday night, this has not actually been voted on by Congress yet. And it's still possible that Senator Kyrsten Sinema, from Arizona could sink this whole thing, because she hasn't said if she's gonna vote for it yet. So it's possible that this might go nowhere. But my Roberto Baldwin 1:01:47 question was, some people put amendments and I can say, Hey, I heard Nicole, this is too complicated. Nicole Wakelin 1:01:58 I've made it easy. There's two tree two decisions. That's it. Sam Abuelsamid 1:02:02 That I think if I'm if I'm not mistaken, I think this is a reconciliation bill, which basically means it's going to be an up or down vote. At this point. They there's no more amendment amendments. Yeah, I think so. But I'm not 100% sure on that. But John's question was said, Do you have an explanation on the proposed tax credit, which we just talked about? And he said, what current vehicles would qualify? Basically, anything built in North America? It will get something. And then is it only battery electric vehicles or do plug in hybrids qualify as well, and plug in hybrids do continue to qualify, but they have raised the minimum battery capacity. So it used to be a plug in hybrid had to have at least four kilowatt hour battery. It's now seven kilowatt hours under this bill. So it's almost double the size. So still pretty puny. There's any Roberto Baldwin 1:03:00 more? Yeah. It's like a bunch of like shots. Sam Abuelsamid 1:03:06 Yeah. When this was done in 2009, you know, there was you had that first generation Toyota Prius plug in, which had like a four kilowatt it was just over four kilowatt hour battery, which is basically useless. But yeah, plug in hybrids will still be eligible. So let's go through this list from the bottom up. Oh, Coach crazy coach Cabrera asked, Is the new Silverado Eevee only being offered in work truck and premium models, where are the in between versions? So there will be in between versions. The word the word truck, the rst are the first two coming out. The word truck is supposed to come out next spring, and then the rst in the fall. And then LTS and ZR tos and other trim levels have become rolling out over the months following that, you know, into early 2024. So there will be a full range of trim levels. Roberto Baldwin 1:04:06 They want to get the big money and then like, well, also the big money with the pleats first Yeah, too big money's too big money. No. Whammies. Sam Abuelsamid 1:04:16 Okay, this one's for you, Nicole. Yeah, I'd love to hear about Evie infrastructure in the northeast, ubiquitous in the Boston suburbs, but always seeing a dearth of EVs and chargers on or near, for example, Cape Cod and northern Vermont. Nicole Wakelin 1:04:31 Yeah, so the EB infrastructure if you're on a major highway, once you get a little bit further north, like for example, in New Hampshire, like once you get to Concord, middle the state. There's a huge section of Evie chargers right off of the highway you can get there must be like 10 or 15 on each side of the highway. But then you get north of there. Good luck with that. And it's randomly very often randomly, like at some inn or some hotel somewhere that will have a couple of Evie chargers and they sort of gone all in with it. I wonder To say that's the case in one spot in Vermont I can't remember a state but like the hotel is like all prides itself on being green so they've installed chargers for their hotel guests it is harder to find in the further you get up north the harder it is to find it can be next to impossible to find them in any quantity where if there's one other guy who's charging you've got a you know, one charge with two books so you have a very minimal number of options it's getting better I mean it really is getting better but once you get you know once you really get out of the really populous areas which are the southern parts of New Hampshire and you know southern areas, you can find them sometimes they're a little more prevalent in the heavily tourist areas, but it's still not a lot of them, you're still going to find just one or two so if you're trying to charge your you have to plan you really do have to plan it's not like you can just plug in anywhere. So it's better than it was it's still not great. Still not great and during the wintertime they are so very often just plowed right in that no one pays attention the guys plowing the last and I don't think it's intentional. I honestly think they just don't know I don't think they're looking going there think their brain is seeing big white thing that's a sign no one needs that not like big white thing that's a charger when people need that. You know, so Roberto Baldwin 1:06:15 yeah, travel with the shuttle. Nicole Wakelin 1:06:18 It's good. Yeah, really, it's getting better and like you said you can find them in like a lot of the malls. It was a time when you'd have nothing in the malls now you'll find most malls have a couple so you have to go to places they aren't every place you have to find little populous areas that have enough to warrant someone putting in a charger I guess. Sam Abuelsamid 1:06:36 When when you do find a charger at a hotel? is it usually a general purpose charger with a 1717 72 connector? Or is it a Tesla destination charger, Nicole Wakelin 1:06:50 I've seen some that have I was at a couple places will have like a Tesla charger there. But then a couple of just generic anybody can use this chargers. Because I have seen both at hotels depending on the hotel in the in the larger one, sometimes a larger resort kind of place might have a little bit more, you get to an end. And they may have just said well we put a we have an Eevee charger here at our end for the one person who wants to plug in right now. And that's it. But again, it's it really varies from place to place. It's something if you're if you're going up into the northeast, if you said like you know, if you're going up to Vermont, if you're going you know, if you're going really up into the northeast, you have to look at where you're going and check the availability excuse me ahead of time, so you know what's available, whatever you're reading isn't. Sam Abuelsamid 1:07:42 All right. Next up from Team engineering, thoughts on the viability of the Hyundai envision 74 hydrogen fuel cell stack for range extending EVs. So using a fuel cell, as a range extender for EVs is something that's not a new idea. It's it's, there's been a number of concepts over the years. In fact, back in early 2007, I had a chance to drive the Ford high series edge concept, which was exactly this, it had, I think it was about a 18 kilowatt hour battery pack, you know, that would give you about 50 miles, or they claimed about 50 miles of, of electric driving range from the plug, and then hydrogen fuel cell to act as a range extender. And, you know, there's been other concepts since then Audi did, I think, an ace seven, a few years back with a similar type of setup. Mercedes done something. And it's actually not a bad idea. Because fuel cells work better when they're running steady state, instead of doing it up and down, you know, transients, you know, as you accelerate and decelerate, and you can rely on the battery to do the transient stuff, and then just use the fuel cell to keep it charged. But it's also a more expensive solution. So it's yes, it's technically feasible. is, you know, is it economically viable? Probably not so much. Roberto Baldwin 1:09:31 I mean, when it comes to fuel cells is still running an electric motor. I mean, if you get the next the next so the fuel cell and then had a battery on it as well. So it's, you know, it's not like Hyundai hasn't done this before. They're just this is they've just supercharged what they're doing with the with the Envision 74 where you can have both of them in like the coolest looking concept car that we've seen in like 10 years. It can happen and it makes sense. I mean, North Korea, not North Korea, South Korea. It's not North Korea, I don't know what's going on North Korea, as the rest of us don't know anything. Anyway, South Korea, they, they, you know, they have they have an actual hydrogen and hydrogen refueling infrastructure unlike this country. So, you know, that's where Hyundai's based makes a lot of sense. And then, you know, they can learn from this from this vehicle and have a lot of fun. And, of course, make us all drool over the vehicle for the next five years, and then say, now, we're not making that, or maybe they will, but not here. Oh, no, that'd be even worse. See that? So would it be worse? Would it be worse? Or worse that they do make it but North America doesn't get it? Which is worse? Nicole Wakelin 1:10:40 Worse when you can't have it? It's like looking at really cool thing there. Sam Abuelsamid 1:10:44 Well, you know, if, at least if they made it, you know, there's the chance that at some point in time, you could import Roberto Baldwin 1:10:51 125 years later, or 21 years? Yeah. Like the Honda. The Honda II. Yeah. All right. At least you can get it later or in 24. If you move if you move to Korea, you can get one Oh, that's true. All right. Well, there you go. You just gotta move to go. Yeah. But then again, the Korea is the speed limit of Korea is like 12 miles an hour. Everything drives I was in a mountain on a mountain road. And in the new soul, Evie, which they were going to bring to America, then they changed their mind not to. It was it was a fantastic little Eevee. And the speed limit was 30 kilometers an hour, which is 18 miles an hour. Pleasing along on a mountain road. I was like, I'm not. I'm going faster than that. I told my late. My dry partner. I'm not driving 18 miles an hour on this road. They're like, yeah, that's why Nicole Wakelin 1:11:42 we're not doing that speed limit. Thank you. Sam Abuelsamid 1:11:46 All right, next up from and that we're visiting the US, Minnesota later in the month, being a townie and scared of spiders, wolves and lives. Not sure why you would be scared of loons, but you know, spiders. Wolves I can understand. Nicole Wakelin 1:12:03 attack people. I've never seen a loon attack geese. Sam Abuelsamid 1:12:08 I guess. I guess the sound of a loon can be a little spooky if you've never been to it. Nicole Wakelin 1:12:13 Nice, and they're pretty brand new. Or maybe Roberto Baldwin 1:12:16 they mean like Looney people like the Looney Tunes. Sam Abuelsamid 1:12:19 Oh, that's that could be I think Roberto Baldwin 1:12:20 they mean, I don't think they got okay. Sam Abuelsamid 1:12:25 Anyway, anyway, my oldest son plans to sleep in the car rather than the cabin. Any tips for making his time in the back of our rental suburban more comfortable, a hotel? Hello. It Out would think, you know, if you're staying in a cabin, that would probably be better and just as safe as sleeping in the back of the suburban. But, you know, I mean, if the kids got to sleep in the suburban, you know, modern air mattresses you know, that have a built in pump are actually really good. We have one that we use when we have guests staying like our daughter saying was this this week, you plug it in, pumps it up in about two, three minutes. And you know, it's nice and firm. And it's like, almost like a real mattress. And so I would definitely contend that, you know, when you're not using it, it deflates. And you can roll it up into a fairly small package. So I would definitely consider getting a an air mattress with a built in pump, Nicole Wakelin 1:13:28 I would say and if you're depending on how late the people sleep in, it's gonna be really bright, sign that car as soon as the sun comes up because of all the windows. So something like either get some little towels or something that you can hang somewhere to provide or give them an iMac masking an eye mask because otherwise it's going to be bright and when the sun comes up early in the summer. It's it's bright. In the car up at 4am because the sun's up what's the Roberto Baldwin 1:13:57 temperature in Minnesota at the end of August? Like a day like the hot summer hot or is it start getting cold Nicole Wakelin 1:14:05 still? I think it's still summer hot, isn't it? Sam Abuelsamid 1:14:09 It's probably you know, probably getting into the 50s at night. So not cold but cooler. Not too bad. They're not gonna you got a good sleeping bag. It's fine. Yeah. Roberto Baldwin 1:14:19 Sleeping bag, a nice air mattress. Nicole Wakelin 1:14:22 Have you ever had Have you ever slept in a car? I mean, has that Roberto Baldwin 1:14:26 my friend. When we used to go sit when I was a kid we still will not a kid a teenager 20s We used to go surfing all the time what we'll do because I'm from a mountain town we would dry we would leave our work like one two in the morning drive to the ocean, sleep in the car. So I've just put the seat back and like my 90 Honda Civic Hatchback. And there'll be three of us. So the people in the front and then the person in the back. We all just sort of scrunched up and made sure our surfboards weren't stolen. We put them in the car so we sleep underneath the surfboards in the car if they fit and they didn't we just like Hope for the best and leaves a big one on top. So I've done that, and I've slept in the back of a WR X wagon. Not with the with the back down, but just just in the back seat. But I just had a pillow I had, I had to go see, I was in a hospital, I had a family member who was very sick. And I got there. And then it was you know, did all the sick family member thing and then like, okay, and then I was like, Well, I don't know, I'm just gonna sleep in my car. It's slept. Nicole Wakelin 1:15:27 My thing is if you sleep in the car in the summer, even if it's in a it can get kind of hot if it's still warm, but it also gets very humid in the car because it's hot already outside. And then you'd have it all closed up. And imagine this poor kids gonna have every window every everything sealed completely tight against Roberto Baldwin 1:15:45 the balloons, right? So Nicole Wakelin 1:15:48 it's gonna get you so if there's some little fan like a little portable fan or something like little tiny ones, like you put on your desk almost or something, this is gonna just get like, it's gonna get really muggy in that car. You're gonna like condensation on the Windows when you wake up in the Sam Abuelsamid 1:16:03 swampy well, and the thing is, you don't want to leave the windows open. Well, I mean, I wouldn't worry about the spiders, but the mosquitoes are going to eat you alive. Roberto Baldwin 1:16:13 Oh, yeah, the mosquitoes and those lose, can get like one of it to like little bills, and that and the open window. Nicole Wakelin 1:16:20 really tiny. They get through anything Roberto Baldwin 1:16:22 really long tongs, they just reach down and they they can unlock the door with their tongue. And then the werewolves Nicole Wakelin 1:16:31 don't tell him about the werewolves Don't Don't tell him. Roberto Baldwin 1:16:34 I mean, it's in the it's in the guide for Minnesota. It's like right there. Sam Abuelsamid 1:16:38 It's on the first page. First forward, I think, Hey, Roberto Baldwin 1:16:41 we're awesome. By the way. Werewolves, werewolves. Sam Abuelsamid 1:16:47 All right. Another one from Team engineering thoughts on aptera's Tesla charger petition. So for those not familiar with this, do you know Aptera the company trying to make this little three wheeled teardrop shaped thing. They, they were around in like 2007, eight, and they went bankrupt about 2011. And they came back a couple of years ago. And now they're putting solar cells all over the car. And they're claiming 1000 miles of driving range, you know, solar and everything. But they would in the the when they published the preliminary rules for the funding for evey charging infrastructure from the the infrastructure bill. You know, one of the things in there was that the Chargers had to use CCS connectors, which is the industry standard for everybody except Tesla. And Aptera is, is putting a put put, put out a petition, you know, saying that, you know, now they want to use the Tesla charging port and still charging connector instead of CCS for no readily apparent reason. Nicole Wakelin 1:18:02 Because Roberto Baldwin 1:18:03 maybe they're hoping to get bought by Tesla. I liked it, there's that their petition is like the second graph is a recent study showed that Tesla superchargers provide the best Evie charging experience. That's because they're everywhere. And they have exactly one car they have to work with. That's it. That's because of the charging. It's not because of the charging port. Sam Abuelsamid 1:18:24 Tesla controls the software in the charger and in the car. So you know, it's easy for them. Roberto Baldwin 1:18:29 Yeah, it's, and they decided long ago to put charging networks everywhere, which was a very smart thing to do. But it's still like right now that is the number one reason to buy a Tesla. It's not any of the other stuff because everyone else is essentially caught up to them. When it comes to EVs. It's that charging network if your friend what who's this person and want to go up? I don't know, somewhere in northeast, wherever you live in North Vermont. I'm sure there's dozens of Tesla chargers that person could just drive to and be totally fine. Nicole Wakelin 1:18:58 Yeah, there are a lot more Tesla chargers, if you're looking for Tesla chargers, they're way easier to find they're very conveniently located somewhere on your main route. See that? 10 of them in in the mall across the street from the big mall they're putting in like, there must be like 10 At least it seems like that's Roberto Baldwin 1:19:13 the killer app of the Tesla charging network. But it's not because of their charging port. It's the fact that they're everywhere. They made a very smart decision. Sam Abuelsamid 1:19:27 Yeah, I mean, Tesla already uses CCs in Europe, because they're required to add it hasn't changed the charging experience over there. So it's yeah, you're right. It's not about the port. It's about all the other pieces of the puzzle. Yeah. All right. Surtur asks, How will the customer base change for the charger and challenger? If it goes EV? Not if when? But how different are the maki and Mustang ice customers from each other? Is there overlap? Roberto Baldwin 1:20:00 Uh I live in Northern California so I think there is some overlap because I live in Northern California and EVs are just a dime a dozen now they're all over the place. But that said and having grown up with people who are really into muscle cars, family members friends etc being from a small town there are a lot of people who will never buy another challenger or charger again once it goes up Nicole Wakelin 1:20:24 the peak because people do say that like hardcore Mustang folks say that about the Mustang it's not a Mustang. The maki is not a Mustang. I will never buy one. They have you know, tarnished the Mustang brand ever and no way I will never there are a lot of people so I can imagine the same things gonna happen the Dutch the charger and challenger. Yeah, yeah. Roberto Baldwin 1:20:44 Then people attach their their identities and their personalities to parts of their lives. Like some people attach it to Tesla or to Apple or to Android. And for the muscle car guys and gals, it's the same thing. They've attached their personality to a muscle car, which is a big loud V eight, and horrible, horrible handling. And that's fine. So I love muscle cars, but I know their limitations. There you go. Sam Abuelsamid 1:21:15 Yeah. So so if you if you must have a VA charger challenger, buy it between now and the end of 2023 because after that, it's gone. The the Hellcat is going out of production next year. And the hammies will probably follow it close behind. The Next Generation charger and challenger coming in 24 will not have a big V eight. But they will be faster. Roberto Baldwin 1:21:43 Yeah, that's the thing quicker. And the cat might be that cat remember that cat from like the battery adds when we were little kids. The little cat. Oh, thank you get the licensing for that little electric electric car. It's like a black cat is like a black cat and has its back arched. I think it might have been dirt or ride all right. I think it was maybe anyway, it was a battery manufacturer. They had the cat and he's like electric looks like a lightning bolt was already Nicole Wakelin 1:22:14 it was already had nine lives. Advertising because I'm looking at it now. Roberto Baldwin 1:22:22 There's gonna be a lot of Hellcats Evie Hillcats have to have that sticker plaster on. And they're gonna be at the track and they're gonna make you feel really sad when they outrun your current healthcare. But they won't make the Illinois so you got that going for you? Yeah, but you can't do this Sam Abuelsamid 1:22:45 all right. Last question. Well, actually, you can make that noise because you can program to make any noise you want. Nicole Wakelin 1:22:51 You can make it sound cooler than a Hellcat. Unknown Speaker 1:22:53 Oh, you can? Yeah, Nicole Wakelin 1:22:55 could you what's cooler than a Hellcat? I don't know, come up with that Dodge. Maybe I can make Sam Abuelsamid 1:22:59 it sound like a Hellcat. Roberto Baldwin 1:23:00 You can make sound cooler Nicole Wakelin 1:23:01 than it has to be better than Roberto Baldwin 1:23:03 just dog bark. Happy Birthday song. Sam Abuelsamid 1:23:09 Alright, last one for this week from Fozzie be looking for the team's feedback on level two chargers. There are so many and the costs vary widely. Any thoughts on options features to whittle it down to two or three? Robbie? Weren't you just doing some testing? Roberto Baldwin 1:23:26 I am I'm doing testing on some charges. I have the juice box from an L or email. Anyway, I have Electrify America and I have electrify America's home charger. And I have chargepoints Warm charger. And I'm doing a big review for for wired for these which requires a lot of charging, charging and more charging, sticking things to the walls of my house and doing anyway. So I think for most people, if you get you're probably going to want like a 50 amp circuit in your house. So you can get a 40 amp charger. It'll go up to 9.6 9.6 Yeah, 9.6 kilowatts per hour. And overnight. I mean, I charged I charge a Ford F 150. Lightning with it. No big deal. And I think you know, if you want something quicker, you can get something quicker, you can get like 100 amp systems you can get, you know, I think Ford is going to have something that's just ridiculous and charges really quick and lucid will have something that's ridiculous and charges really quick. But for the most part, those three are sort of the big three right now. A lot of automakers are also making their own. And so you can get those as well. Really, the whole point of having the home charger is that a you can just check your phone and see how it's charging. You can keep track of you know how much money you're spending. Some of them have that. You can also set it up with scheduling, which is nice. If you live in an area where your electricity costs are different. Depending on the time of day there's different tiers. In the middle of the night our electricity is like half the cost of what it is During the day, so having a home charger and saying, Hey, I only want you to charge from midnight until noon, or 9am in the morning or 6am in the morning, is great, because you know that you're only getting charged when the electricity is the least expensive. And you can also like override that if you really need to charge. What's nice about the level two chargers is that in the instances where you do need, you know, you have been driving around a ton. And in a few hours, you know, you get home and a few hours, you gotta you have to go somewhere else, it is nice to sort of just plug it in while you're at home, you know, unpacking or doing whatever you have to do, and then turn around and take off and take care of other errands in the house. That's where, because it's not going to cost you any more to charge your vehicle if you're using a level two charger versus just plugging it into the regular socket, because using the same amount of electricity. It's just you're getting it quicker. That's the that's the whole thing. And they are you know, going to be expensive. I mean, for me, it did like the getting the the outlet put in was like 700 and something dollars, which I guess which I found out was about the average. So that's, you know, it's it's a lot to, you know, sort of lay out. So you're like, Hey, I'm saving all this money on electric car and you're like, oh, wait, hold on. Are these other things? Sam Abuelsamid 1:26:14 Yeah, I only have to do that once. Roberto Baldwin 1:26:15 But you only have to do that once. And considering how much how expensive gases has gotten especially here I never I try I tried my BRC for fun. But for like errands I take our Kona electric just because gas is so expensive. And electricity is far cheaper. And it's you know, again, if gas was $5 a gallon, which it's not here, it would cost me $18 To drive 100 miles and my BRC, it costs $6 to drive it in the Kona. So, Sam Abuelsamid 1:26:46 and I mean, you mentioned that doesn't cost you any more to charge from a 240 versus a 120. Actually, it can actually be cheaper from the 240. Because most the onboard chargers in an EVs are typically optimized for 240 volt flow versus, and so you, you a lot of times, you actually end up getting more losses, when you're charging from 120 volts, you are correct, I forgot about that with with 120, you might actually end up using a little bit more electricity, you're gonna get the same amount of electricity going into the battery, but you're going to it's going to consume more because of the losses in the conversion. So it's actually more efficient, typically, to use a 240. And, actually, I just saw something, I'll have to find a link, and I'll include it in the show notes. There's a company now, that is making a device that goes in between it, it plugs in between the meter and the socket that your electric meter plugs into on the outside of your house or your garage. And essentially, what it does is it It taps in right at the meter. So it's your meter still measuring, you know all your electricity use, but it gives you a 240 volt outlet at right at the meter. So that you don't actually have to do any electrical upgrades in your house or run an outlet at you know, from from your panel in your house into your garage or to the outside of your house. So it can you know this device is but about, I think it's about five or 600 bucks. So it's cheaper typically than an electrician. And you know, if you have an older house, if you have, you know only 100 amp service in your house, you would you'll want to upgrade that to 200 amps before you install a 240 volt outlet. But with this device, you don't have to do that upgrade it because it plugs in right at the meter. So I'll find it and included in the show notes. That's another potential solution. The other thing to keep in mind is, you know, think about like check out the EVS that you're thinking about buying because a lot of EVs now are bundling charging cable that has interchangeable tips on it that actually supports 240 volt. So you don't actually like for example, you know all the for EVs, the maki and the the lightning come with a 240 volt capable cable but it's got an interchangeable tip so you can plug it into a 120 outlet if you need to. Or no 240 outlet, the lightning, if you get the lightning with the extended range battery, it actually comes bundled with their charge station Pro which is an 80 amp 19.2 kilowatt charger. So you get that with the truck. And you just need to have the outlet put it in your garage, and then you and those chargers those 19 kilowatt chargers typically cost about $2,000 They include that with the truck. So you don't have to buy that extra. And then the machi comes with a, I think, a 9.6 kilowatt. And you know, if, if the car you're buying most, most EVs have the ability to do the scheduling right in the car, or from an app that's connected to your car. So again, you don't necessarily need to have a charger that has that connectivity and a separate app for the charger, you can do it from the car, you can control it from the car and do that scheduling of when you want to charge. And so you know, the charger that I bought is actually its electron 9.6 kilowatt, 40 amp charger, charging cable, it doesn't have any conductivity or any smarts, it's got a display on it. So it tells me you know how much current voltage I'm getting when I plug it in and then when it's all done charging, it shows me how many kilowatt hours it transferred to the car. But you know, I, you know, I don't get any connectivity to the charger itself. It's just, it just shows me on the thing there but I can control the control scheduling from whatever car is plugged in. And that one was only 300 bucks on Amazon. So Roberto Baldwin 1:31:18 a bargain bargain do remember though if you get though even if you if you buy the lightning and the maverick or not the maverick the Maki, you're gonna have to if you don't have that 240 volt outlet, you're gonna have to get an electrician to come in still put in that 200 volt. That lightning you're gonna need a 100 amp dedicated circuit just for that just for the charger that comes with the lightning with the extended battery and the the the Maki 9.6 You're gonna need a 50 amp because you want to do 20% higher than the AP it's being used blah blah. The electrician will tell you all this stuff about it. Eventually you just got to call a kitchen don't burn your house down. That's that's that's my thing. There's a lot of things you can do in your house. You can Sam Abuelsamid 1:32:00 unless unless you are a licensed electrician do not do this yourself god no electrician to do it do you not Roberto Baldwin 1:32:06 if you can hang you can hang a picture in your house great you can you can replace the door outstanding but unless you're elect like a certified electrician Don't Don't Don't mess with electricity because it'll kill you or burn your house down one of those you know there's a couple of boats burn your house down and kill you like yeah, you're you're you are the kindling that burnt down your house. Sam Abuelsamid 1:32:30 All right, with that, let's call it a show and we will talk to you all next time. Bye bye